2022 Offseason Thread

[uscbucsfan]

Everyone will get over 20 million in the next few years. The cap could hit 300 million by 2026. That's wild.

[Xandtar]

He wouldn't be a fullback in today's game.

He would be a quarterback.

And he had more raw talent at every part of football than Mahomes.

And that was the primary question being posed.

It's such a ridiculous exercise trying to take someone from that era with the argument, "today's strength and conditioning" and say they are better or more athletic than people of today.

It's not an argument that can be made intelligently...he didn't do the things at QB that players do today. He didn't attempt it, because it wasn't part of the game. His longest recorded pass in college or pro was 45 yards. Even ignoring the progression of athletes over the years...just judging of what we have as film, numbers, etc...You could say he MAY have been as good as today's athletes...maybe stretch it to better, but you certainly can't absolutely say either way.

To make a definitive statement that "he had more raw talent at every part of football than Mahomes" warrants nothing more than...lol.

Let's agree to disagree here. EVER, means EVER. As you correctly point out, it is virtually impossible to compare objectively. One can also say that Patrick Mahomes could never be in a position to give up two home runs to the best batter in the Major Leagues, or that we could never know how he might have played both sides of the ball in a massive road trip season with the Duluth Eskimos. I was only mentioning talent, and we have an objective statement from the greatest football coach of that part of the century, and his status as a founding member of the Hall of Fame.

I've made my point. Almost everyone disagrees with and is going to LOL. And that's fine with me.

[uscbucsfan]

It's such a ridiculous exercise trying to take someone from that era with the argument, "today's strength and conditioning" and say they are better or more athletic than people of today.

It's not an argument that can be made intelligently...he didn't do the things at QB that players do today. He didn't attempt it, because it wasn't part of the game. His longest recorded pass in college or pro was 45 yards. Even ignoring the progression of athletes over the years...just judging of what we have as film, numbers, etc...You could say he MAY have been as good as today's athletes...maybe stretch it to better, but you certainly can't absolutely say either way.

To make a definitive statement that "he had more raw talent at every part of football than Mahomes" warrants nothing more than...lol.

Let's agree to disagree here. EVER, means EVER. As you correctly point out, it is virtually impossible to compare objectively. One can also say that Patrick Mahomes could never be in a position to give up two home runs to the best batter in the Major Leagues, or that we could never know how he might have played both sides of the ball in a massive road trip season with the Duluth Eskimos. I was only mentioning talent, and we have an objective statement from the greatest football coach of that part of the century, and his status as a founding member of the Hall of Fame.

I've made my point. Almost everyone disagrees with and is going to LOL. And that's fine with me.

You are taking the word of someone who died in the 50s. It doesn't hold any weight when comparing to present day players.

The statement wasn't who was the best baseball player to also play football (which Nevers also wouldn't make most short list), it was most athletic QB of all-time. Including Nevers on that list is just crying for attention. "But Pop Warner said"...Are you in your late 90s and believe that Nevers was the most talented Quarterback that you've ever watched? All 24 of his career passing TDs? If not, your argument is ridiculous.

[King Bootz]

He has the highest upside when healthy.

When healthy is the major key. He's averaging fewer than 9 games/season as a pro. But he's absolutely the standard when he is right.

[Xandtar]

Maybe so.

But where then do we draw the line, and say "most talented EVER... from among the quarterbacks of 19__ and beyond?" At what year do we say, "oh but we're not counting those quarterbacks because they played the power-T, or those others before they brought in all the protect-the-quarterback rules, or those others who started their quarterback training at the age of 8"?

I agree that I'm holding what most will consider a ridiculous position. It's the most encompassing, and therefore the hardest to defend using the borderline-cannot-compare-eras counterargument. Fine. Where's YOUR year border? At what year do you refuse to compare people to the players on the field today?

[IronDog]

Maybe the line should fall on whatever year the ball stopped looking like a distorted basketball or rugby ball to the refined bullet-shaped thing it is now. Hell, with his little hands, I'm not sure Patty could grip the thing back when.

[uscbucsfan]

Maybe so.

But where then do we draw the line, and say "most talented EVER... from among the quarterbacks of 19__ and beyond?" At what year do we say, "oh but we're not counting those quarterbacks because they played the power-T, or those others before they brought in all the protect-the-quarterback rules, or those others who started their quarterback training at the age of 8"?

I agree that I'm holding what most will consider a ridiculous position. It's the most encompassing, and therefore the hardest to defend using the borderline-cannot-compare-eras counterargument. Fine. Where's YOUR year border? At what year do you refuse to compare people to the players on the field today?

Many use the merger, but there's common sense, too.

All eras have differences, but the game and the "athletes" were too different back then to even tey to compare.

[Xandtar]

Okay. That's at least an objective standard, we could find that year. I'm sure it's only a google search away.... hmm, even there it's a little fuzzy, perhaps sometime in the 1940's... https://www.quora.com/How-did-the-footb ... pe?share=1

But then Otto Graham, who threw that ball but had completely different preparation for the job, might have a claim, because his era was also very different than today. Can those of you who are laughing at me keep him in?

Is anyone else willing to stand up and say, "for me, there is ONE year, and that year is 19__, because..."

I've taken a hard position, I say include them all the best we can, and I believe on my scanty evidence that an original player is better. Of course most will disagree and laugh while doing it, I would too! But will anyone stand up and defend one year at which for one position, we throw all the players before that off in grandpa's old-folks-home? I'm just wondering

[uscbucsfan]

You've never watched these players play. You are just including them to start an argument.

[Xandtar]

Maybe so.

But where then do we draw the line, and say "most talented EVER... from among the quarterbacks of 19__ and beyond?" At what year do we say, "oh but we're not counting those quarterbacks because they played the power-T, or those others before they brought in all the protect-the-quarterback rules, or those others who started their quarterback training at the age of 8"?

I agree that I'm holding what most will consider a ridiculous position. It's the most encompassing, and therefore the hardest to defend using the borderline-cannot-compare-eras counterargument. Fine. Where's YOUR year border? At what year do you refuse to compare people to the players on the field today?

Many use the merger, but there's common sense, too.

All eras have differences, but the game and the "athletes" were too different back then to even tey to compare.

You know what? I'll take the merger, and with that, I'll agree with you that of those players I watched after that, and I saw almost all of them though football didn't truly interest me in the 1970's, that Patrick Mahomes is the most talented from the post-merger era.

Shall we agree to start our "EVER" there, from this point out?

[mdb1958]

Think on this with Nevers, he played 5 seasons and made the Hall of Fame.

[Selmon Rules]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that most QBs of today would never be able to play the position back in the 50's with the rules as they were then....

That being said, I don't know that there has been anyone more talented to play the position than Mahomes is. He does things that few have dreamed of doing on a football field

[Capsaicin]

Huh— No love for AA Ron around here. Guess he choked too many times. Dude should’ve had 4 SBs by now

[Deja Entendu]

I won’t pretend to have enough of their tape memorized to rank them, but Young, Elway, Vick, and Randall are the first to come to mind for me when thinking of freakishly physically gifted QBs.

Mahomes does some crazy entertaining stuff for sure, but he also has an ideal scenario between: system/coach, talent around him, and era.

[Deja Entendu]

This and... who has had a better start to their career?

He has the highest passer rating of all time, already had more success than Big Ben, Eli, and numerous other "HoF" QBs in the playoffs (stats and wins), has an MVP, SB MVP...plus he does the impossible on the field with his arm, legs, and mind...What he did against us in a SB loss was incredible. Even our own players were blown away.

He's a freak.

If I had to pick one QB that I wouldn't want standing between my team and a SB, it would be Mahomes.

Tom Brady

[_MB_]

We do not want to run into the Chiefs or Bengals in the Super Bowl this season.

[MJW]

We do not want to run into the Chiefs or Bengals in the Super Bowl.

I would rather play either than the Bills TBH.

I remember two years ago, my son asking me who I wanted to play in the SB, and me very emphatically saying the Chiefs. He asked me why, since the Chiefs had already beaten us. I had "Allen." He asked, "More than Mahomes?" and I said yes. I was partially validated in the following Superbowl, and I think I'd be fully validated if we had to match up with Allen now. And he's much, much better now. And so is the Bills roster.

Semi-Bold Take: Josh Allen is the best quarterback in the NFL right now.

[King Bootz]

Josh Allen is the best QB in the NFL based on what metric?

[uscbucsfan]

Josh Allen is the best QB in the NFL based on what metric?

Maybe the running aspect, but Mahomes is the better passer. As much as people rave about the Chiefs' talent, the Bills had the better overall team for the last 2 years and Mahomes has outperformed Allen every year.

[King Bootz]

Josh Allen is the best QB in the NFL based on what metric?

Maybe the running aspect, but Mahomes is the better passer. As much as people rave about the Chiefs' talent, the Bills are the better overall team for the last 2 years and Mahomes has outperformed Allen every year.

Better overall team on paper? Because it surely isn't wins & losses. In fact the last 2 years, the Bills had their playoff runs ended by the Chiefs.


If the aspect being measured is running, any answer other than Lamar Jackson is ridiculous.

[uscbucsfan]

Maybe the running aspect, but Mahomes is the better passer. As much as people rave about the Chiefs' talent, the Bills are the better overall team for the last 2 years and Mahomes has outperformed Allen every year.

Better overall team on paper? Because it surely isn't wins & losses. In fact the last 2 years, the Bills had their playoff runs ended by the Chiefs.

No, better overall talent...but the Chiefs have the better QB.

The Bills have a much better offensive line, running game, defense. Chiefs have a slight edge in pass catchers, but the most important position is why the Chiefs win those games.

[Dread]

Josh Allen is the best QB in the NFL based on what metric?

Best QB is like saying prettiest girl in that it's a very subjective descriptor. Also a take is just an opinion and doesn't necessarily need to be rooted by a metric.

That said, and I'm not saying I believe Josh Allen is the best QB in the NFL, but he is the current betting favorite to win NFL MVP this season. Which typically goes to the best QB for that season. So it's not exactly that bold of a take since the bettors seem to agree.

"There are no right or wrong opinions"

[King Bootz]

Better overall team on paper? Because it surely isn't wins & losses. In fact the last 2 years, the Bills had their playoff runs ended by the Chiefs.

No, better overall talent...but the Chiefs have the better QB.

The Bills have a much better offensive line, running game, defense. Chiefs have a slight edge in pass catchers, but the most important position is why the Chiefs win those games.

Sounds like it’s exactly what I said: On paper.

[uscbucsfan]

Josh Allen is the best QB in the NFL based on what metric?

Best QB is like saying prettiest girl in that is a very subjective descriptor. Also a take is just an opinion and doesn't necessarily need to be rooted by a metric.

That said, and I'm not saying I believe Josh Allen is the best QB in the NFL, but he is the current betting favorite to win NFL MVP this season. Which typically goes to the best QB for that season. So it's not exactly that bold of a take since the bettors seem to agree.

"There are no right or wrong opinions"

They are predicting Allen makes another step and gets even better, especially if he's fully healthy all season, but the last few years Rodgers, Brady, and Mahomes have been the better QB.

[King Bootz]

Josh Allen is the best QB in the NFL based on what metric?

Best QB is like saying prettiest girl in that it's a very subjective descriptor. Also a take is just an opinion and doesn't necessarily need to be rooted by a metric.

That said, and I'm not saying I believe Josh Allen is the best QB in the NFL, but he is the current betting favorite to win NFL MVP this season. Which typically goes to the best QB for that season. So it's not exactly that bold of a take since the bettors seem to agree.

"There are no right or wrong opinions"

You 1st say the best QB take doesn't need to be rooted in a metric because it's an opinion....Then you use the betting favorite metric to semi-validate said opinion. Got it.

Allen regressed from 2020. He's been at best a top 5 or 6 QB the past 2 years. We'll see how 2022 goes. But he's not in the same tier as Mahomes or Rodgers.

[Dread]

Best QB is like saying prettiest girl in that it's a very subjective descriptor. Also a take is just an opinion and doesn't necessarily need to be rooted by a metric.

That said, and I'm not saying I believe Josh Allen is the best QB in the NFL, but he is the current betting favorite to win NFL MVP this season. Which typically goes to the best QB for that season. So it's not exactly that bold of a take since the bettors seem to agree.

"There are no right or wrong opinions"

You 1st say the best QB take doesn't need to be rooted in a metric because it's an opinion....Then you use the betting favorite metric to semi-validate said opinion. Got it.

Allen regressed from 2020. He's been at best a top 5 or 6 QB the past 2 years. We'll see how 2022 goes. But he's not in the same tier as Mahomes or Rodgers.

You asked for a metric, so I provided one. It's also true that opinions (which is what MJW stated that you responded to) aren't required to be rooted in metrics (even if some happen to be available).

Try to keep up, kiddo.

[King Bootz]

Looks like we get a big break. We are the Browns 11th game.

[BJJ34]

Looks like we get a big break. We are the Browns 11th game.

A break? A guy who hasnt played in two years and is dealing with immediate pressure and has the money guaranteed…


What could go wrong?

[Noles1724]

just made $100.. bet a delusional browns fan, 5 wks ago, that Watson wouldn't play half the season this year.. love browns fans.. this guy has been paying me one bet a year for 10 years now.. wife has told him to stop making bets with me

[Kress]

Looks like we get a big break. We are the Browns 11th game.

A break? A guy who hasnt played in two years and is dealing with immediate pressure and has the money guaranteed…


What could go wrong?

LOL Skips the Bucs in week 11, returns for....


A trip to the Texans in week 12. Like those ratings weren't a consideration.

[King Bootz]

A break? A guy who hasnt played in two years and is dealing with immediate pressure and has the money guaranteed…


What could go wrong?

LOL Skips the Bucs in week 11, returns for....


A trip to the Texans in week 12. Like those ratings weren't a consideration.

Yep. Had the Browns vs Texans been 2 weeks later, it would've been a 13 game suspension without question.

[MJW]

Josh Allen is the best QB in the NFL based on what metric?

My opinion after watching the NFL for ten million hours in my life. I offered nothing more here. I also think Miller High Life is the best American mass brew and Alien 3 was the best Alien movie. I don't have metrics for those either.

[Snake]

Not sure there’s anyone more fun to watch. He like a wild stallion out there.

[kaimaru]

I will say this about the Allen debate: @King Bootz has Lamar Jackson as the best, or if not the best, top 3 certainly. Comparing raw stats between them is useless. However, percentages do compare them. I used their stats the last two years from Pro Football Reference.

Allen 66.1% COMP% 6.0% TD% 2.1% INT% 7.3 YPA 11.1 YPC SK% 4.3% Rush YPA 5.3 Total offense 10135
Jackson 64.4% COMP% 5.5% TD% 2.9% INT% 7.4 YPA 11.5 YPC SK% 8.8% Rush YPA 6.1 Total offense 7411

Even if we use total yards like points in fantasy football where passing yards are worth only 40% of rushing yards:

Allen Total offense 4764.4
Jackson Total offense 4027.6

That to me clearly shows he deserves to be in top 3 discussion.

PS: This was limited to regular season stats only.

[_MB_]

Yahoo put out an article today that Tampa is a potential landing spot for Lamar Jackson next off-season.

Anybody want to get down on that? I say do it, Dom.