Jesus. The NFL isn't like a corporate business. Even in a corporate business, if the owner asks you to do things that are regulated as against the law like tampering and tarnishing the shield by cheating then you have every right to sue them if they fire you.
But this isn't corporate America. It's a self regulated monopoly that is only legal because people love pro sports. They can do shit no corporation can. One instance is no contract in corporate America says we will contract with you for 5 years but, if we decide not to after 3 years you get zip for the rest of the contract.
Again, if Flores wants to sue him, I have no problem with it. That's his right.
If you're saying to me, "you should be deeply bothered as a fan that an owner wanted to tank," I find that ridiculous.
I don’t think anyone gives a rats ass if an owner WANTS to lose… but when they are paying 100,000’s of thousand of dollars to fix games it compromises the integrity of the sport.
And I’ll put it this way… If the Bucs traded Mike Evans and started paying our coach to lose next year because they think our window is closed then I’m out as a fan.
And there absolutely is a huge difference between doing that and throwing the second half of a week 18 game when you are a one win team.
Obviously.
I fuck with the Jags for beating the Colts. Stuff like that makes the game awesome.
BLT wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:31 am
And I’ll put it this way… If the Bucs traded Mike Evans and started paying our coach to lose next year because they think our window is closed then I’m out as a fan.
And there absolutely is a huge difference between doing that and throwing the second half of a week 18 game when you are a one win team.
Obviously.
I fuck with the Jags for beating the Colts. Stuff like that makes the game awesome.
Nah. Offering your head coach a million plus to throw away an entire season while you're investing in a sports gambling company is totally the same thing as pulling your starters at halftime of the last game of a 2 win season, which is totally the same thing as some made up corporate world scenario that never actually happens but I can't come up with any other scenario so there.
Like apples and hand grenades. They're both round and the stem is like the pin. They are completely the same thing. And if my coach won't take a bite of the hand grenade, I'll fire him and there's totally nothing they can do about it because they refused my order.
The Dolphins/Ross tanking intentionally is IMO the big issue in these allegations. Hopefully Flores has something more than 'he said/he said' type allegations.
The allegations of racism with the Giants is speculative at best. I'd be interested to know when the Flores interview was scheduled (not when it was supposed to occur). It's very possible they set the interview with Flores before making the final decision on Daboll.
With so many openings you don’t want another team to hire your top candidate, which Daboll likely was considering the Giants had just hired the Bills Asst GM a week earlier.
Juicy story, but might not be much of case if it's just hearsay.
I look forward to some additional details coming out.
Is he trying to prove that the process is still racist? The Roony rule is not a law, how is he going to prove discrimination without a substantial fishing expedition? The text message might prove that the Roony rule was not followed, but it does not show discrimination.
The Roony rule is garbage to begin with. It was not even followed by Roony himself when they hired Tomlin. The reason it was created in the first place proved to be a fallacy.
They keep pointing to Bieniemy as being the posterchild for a broken system, when you only have to listen to one of his press conferences to discover he does not know shit. Can't imagine how his interviews go, just look at the teams that passed him over to hire a different minority coach.
nybf wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:11 pm
The guy who threw a hissy fit because he thought an admin was secretly editing posts calling anyone a dipshit is rich.
I thought that was Chef. Are you saying @13F11B is Chef?
nybf wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:11 pm
The guy who threw a hissy fit because he thought an admin was secretly editing posts calling anyone a dipshit is rich.
I thought that was Chef. Are you saying @13F11B is Chef?
No. For all of chef's... intricacies... he never ran to the board crying that the admin who fell off the face of the earth was holed up in a secret lair editing the posts of a poster who, for the most part, didn't even register to most people.
With some of the things chef said, that might have made a shred of sense. But this person....
uscbucsfan wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:59 pm
I hate that it's called racism as Daboll was probably the number 1 or 2 coaching candidate. Like if you have the perfect guy, not doing a token interview to comply with the Rooney rule isn't racist. The same thing happen to the Raiders with Gruden. When Gruden said he was interested, they leaped at it and the NFL investigated that they basically decided on hiring him before interviewing a minority candidate. I can't recall if they were punished or what it was.
The Rooney Rule, like affirmative action, has outlived it's usefulness (and frankly, I don't think it was useful to begin with). No more of this forced diversity bullshit. Companies usually have a candidate in mind when a job opening comes available and NFL owners should also hire what they believe is the best man for the job, regardless of ethnic backgrounds. The SCOTUS is set to hear a case that will ban listing your ethnic background on college and job applications. If they rule to ban them, then they should abolish the Rooney Rule.
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I thought that was Chef. Are you saying @13F11B is Chef?
No. For all of chef's... intricacies... he never ran to the board crying that the admin who fell off the face of the earth was holed up in a secret lair editing the posts of a poster who, for the most part, didn't even register to most people.
With some of the things chef said, that might have made a shred of sense. But this person....
Thanks for clarifying. I still don't know who you're talking about, but at least I know it wasn't Chef.
Oh god. The NFL as we know it is over. On the cusp of the best ratings the league has seen in a long time… and then “Owners are paying me to lose” comes out. No more tanking(outwardly).
nybf wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:11 pm
The guy who threw a hissy fit because he thought an admin was secretly editing posts calling anyone a dipshit is rich.
I thought that was Chef. Are you saying @13F11B is Chef?
Ubuntu Buc swore Admin was editing his posts. That I do remember. I miss Chef like I miss cream cheese. I love that goofy SOB
BLT wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:31 am
And I’ll put it this way… If the Bucs traded Mike Evans and started paying our coach to lose next year because they think our window is closed then I’m out as a fan.
And there absolutely is a huge difference between doing that and throwing the second half of a week 18 game when you are a one win team.
Obviously.
I fuck with the Jags for beating the Colts. Stuff like that makes the game awesome.
Nah. Offering your head coach a million plus to throw away an entire season while you're investing in a sports gambling company is totally the same thing as pulling your starters at halftime of the last game of a 2 win season, which is totally the same thing as some made up corporate world scenario that never actually happens but I can't come up with any other scenario so there.
Like apples and hand grenades. They're both round and the stem is like the pin. They are completely the same thing. And if my coach won't take a bite of the hand grenade, I'll fire him and there's totally nothing they can do about it because they refused my order.
The Sportsbook angle is a different story. I've made that perfectly clear. You're obtuse enough naturally, you don't have to work at it.
You're throwing in all these particulars like it changes what we're talking about, and it doesn't. A 2 win team pulls starters for a half to tank a game. What if it's a 3 win team, for a full game? What if it's a four win team for six quarters? At what point do you think we're talking about two different things here?
A huge chunk of teams in the league each year make it clear that winning games would be nice, but they're stacking the deck towards losing with the hope of being better later. They sit on cap space, deal away useful draft picks now for better picks down the line, play young players who aren't as good as veterans they could be playing right now, etc. This idea that organizations go out with the singular goal of winning as many games as possible each season is asinine.
You want to draw the line at the owner being STRAIGHTFOWARD with his coach about this? Or actually compensating him for harming his resume? That's where you're choosing to pretend things change here? Cool. But you have yet to make a compelling argument why that makes it fundamentally different than everything else I've mentioned.
"So let's get to the point
Let's roll another joint
And let's head on down the road
There's somewhere I got to go..."
Oh god. The NFL as we know it is over. On the cusp of the best ratings the league has seen in a long time… and then “Owners are paying me to lose” comes out. No more tanking(outwardly).
The NFL needs to stay the hell away from the lottery system. That crap needs to be abolished
BLT wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:31 am
And I’ll put it this way… If the Bucs traded Mike Evans and started paying our coach to lose next year because they think our window is closed then I’m out as a fan.
And there absolutely is a huge difference between doing that and throwing the second half of a week 18 game when you are a one win team.
Obviously.
I fuck with the Jags for beating the Colts. Stuff like that makes the game awesome.
And you'd come right back like Randy Quaid in Major League II when the draft picks and cap room yielded a championship caliber roster instead of the 7 wins we'd be looking at in your preferred scenario.
The point is to win Championships. Not games. Nobody gives a shit if you won 2 games or 4 games or 9 games a couple of years ago. If you're not good enough to compete for Rings with your current roster, and you don't believe you will be anytime soon, you maximize the value of your short-term assets to improve your chances of winning Rings later. All that matters is the Lombardi. Not the friends we made along the way. Not the moral victories. Not what you did in a game nobody is going to remember next month.
"So let's get to the point
Let's roll another joint
And let's head on down the road
There's somewhere I got to go..."
The "argument being made" is that it's exactly like some fictitious real world business scenario that you can't even come up with an example for. And when it was pointed out that there's really no comp in the real world, you just circle back, type up another long winded crock that just repeats your original points. Yes, you're making a very good argument. Well done.
MJW wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:51 am
And you'd come right back like Randy Quaid in Major League II when the draft picks and cap room yielded a championship caliber roster instead of the 7 wins we'd be looking at in your preferred scenario.
The point is to win Championships. Not games. Nobody gives a shit if you won 2 games or 4 games or 9 games a couple of years ago. If you're not good enough to compete for Rings with your current roster, and you don't believe you will be anytime soon, you maximize the value of your short-term assets to improve your chances of winning Rings later. All that matters is the Lombardi. Not the friends we made along the way. Not the moral victories. Not what you did in a game nobody is going to remember next month.
I thought the point was to make money, but maybe that was just a Culverhouse thing.
I hear what you are saying. I think many people think that teams might decide to trade away good players for picks and get a crappy roster so they can rebuild. I am not sure anyone really believes that a team would actively tell coaches and players to lose games. This report takes things to a different level than people thought about before.
nybf wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:02 am
The "argument being made" is that it's exactly like some fictitious real world business scenario that you can't even come up with an example for. And when it was pointed out that there's really no comp in the real world, you just circle back, type up another long winded crock that just repeats your original points. Yes, you're making a very good argument. Well done.
That's...not the argument being made? It's not even germane to the argument?
But there's no point in repeating myself what with those fancy "words" I'd have to use.
Think of more fruit/explosives analogies. That was pure sophistry.
I hope these short paragraphs have been helpful to you. Have a nice day.
"So let's get to the point
Let's roll another joint
And let's head on down the road
There's somewhere I got to go..."
nybf wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:04 am
Has there ever been a Black Sox or Pete Rose type gambling scandal in nfl?
The only major one I am aware of was in 1963 when Paul Hornung and Alex Karras were exiled and it was unclear if they would be allowed to return. There as also the suspension of Josh Shaw in 2020 but he was on IR at the time. Another prominent one was Art Schlichter in 1982 he was a high draft pick that got suspended for gambling but I do not think it was on NFL games.
So just finished reading the 58 page lawsuit and here are some takes.
1) Media trying to paint this like Kap 2.0 when it's really not. With that said it is quite a tacky and dramatic suit written more for the media than the courts.
2) Flores being insulted by the sham interviews is the double edge of the Rooney Rule.
Say you're an NFL team looking for a new HC, and you absolutely fall in love with your first interviewee and are 100% sold... now what do you do?
Even if he's black you still must conduct a sham interview with a second black candidate. And if he's white, which he probably is, you now have to conduct two insincere interviews.
The debate of whether the Rooney Rule hurts more than helps or helps more than hurts is not new.
3) Ironically it's not the accusations of racism that could lead to Flores being blackballed, but his attacks on Ross. Even though they could be (and I think are) 100% legit and true, owners stick together and close ranks when any are attacked.
4) The tampering and incentivized tanking accusations are not to be taken lightly.
5) Even if it comes straight from the owner, "go out there and lose, jeopardizing your job security and all future earnings just so the team that's gonna fire/cut you can get a better draft pick" is an impossible sell. Even if you literally put $100k on each loss. Tanking simply requires too many conspirators to be a legitimate issue. Regardless it doesn't actually need to be a legit problem to create waves. The mere perception/accusations could be enough to lead to a Draft Lottery.
nybf wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:04 am
Has there ever been a Black Sox or Pete Rose type gambling scandal in nfl?
I’m sure games have been thrown. Just no one has ever been publicly outted.
The NFL is walking a really thin line right meow. If they, an institution that is the epitome of everything both great and wrong with America, can walk away unscathed from a story like this… then I don’t know if this country will ever be truly fixed.
The accusation of an owner officially paying his coach more than 75% of the country makes in a year for ONE loss is worse than Pete Rose betting. This is unexplainable to any other position in the world. The amount of money being thrown around. Flores just cost himself ANY job ever in the future of the business(most likely).
5) Even if it comes straight from the owner, "go out there and lose, jeopardizing your job security and all future earnings just so the team that's gonna fire/cut you can get a better draft pick" is an impossible sell. Even if you literally put $100k on each loss. Tanking simply requires too many conspirators to be a legitimate issue. Regardless it doesn't actually need to be a legit problem to create waves. The mere perception/accusations could be enough to lead to a Draft Lottery.
This could force the Dolphins to be sold. And the Draft Lottery solves nothing. Unless you’re completely giving the process up to AI without any human interaction(or hacking).
Tanking is easy to do from a head coaches perspective. Choosing to run on an obvious running situation where the defense is keyed in. Choosing to do odd scenarios throughout the game. If he was paying the coaches, what do you think he’d pay a player.
BLT wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:31 am
And I’ll put it this way… If the Bucs traded Mike Evans and started paying our coach to lose next year because they think our window is closed then I’m out as a fan.
And there absolutely is a huge difference between doing that and throwing the second half of a week 18 game when you are a one win team.
Obviously.
I fuck with the Jags for beating the Colts. Stuff like that makes the game awesome.
And you'd come right back like Randy Quaid in Major League II when the draft picks and cap room yielded a championship caliber roster instead of the 7 wins we'd be looking at in your preferred scenario.
The point is to win Championships. Not games. Nobody gives a shit if you won 2 games or 4 games or 9 games a couple of years ago. If you're not good enough to compete for Rings with your current roster, and you don't believe you will be anytime soon, you maximize the value of your short-term assets to improve your chances of winning Rings later. All that matters is the Lombardi. Not the friends we made along the way. Not the moral victories. Not what you did in a game nobody is going to remember next month.
nybf wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:02 am
The "argument being made" is that it's exactly like some fictitious real world business scenario that you can't even come up with an example for. And when it was pointed out that there's really no comp in the real world, you just circle back, type up another long winded crock that just repeats your original points. Yes, you're making a very good argument. Well done.
That's...not the argument being made? It's not even germane to the argument?
But there's no point in repeating myself what with those fancy "words" I'd have to use.
Think of more fruit/explosives analogies. That was pure sophistry.
I hope these short paragraphs have been helpful to you. Have a nice day.
You didn't make the argument that throwing away an entire season is exactly the same as some made up business scenario that you couldn't even provide a real world example for? Weird. I could have sworn I read that in one of your first posts on this.
5) Even if it comes straight from the owner, "go out there and lose, jeopardizing your job security and all future earnings just so the team that's gonna fire/cut you can get a better draft pick" is an impossible sell. Even if you literally put $100k on each loss. Tanking simply requires too many conspirators to be a legitimate issue. Regardless it doesn't actually need to be a legit problem to create waves. The mere perception/accusations could be enough to lead to a Draft Lottery.
This could force the Dolphins to be sold. And the Draft Lottery solves nothing. Unless you’re completely giving the process up to AI without any human interaction(or hacking).
Tanking is easy to do from a head coaches perspective. Choosing to run on an obvious running situation where the defense is keyed in. Choosing to do odd scenarios throughout the game. If he was paying the coaches, what do you think he’d pay a player.
100% Ross should be forced to sell the team. But that would be breaking new ground in the NFL. And there are plenty of other piece of shit owners deeply invested in that line never being crossed because once it's crossed they'll be in danger too. Maintaining that shield is probably the one thing more important to them than money.
I don't think a lottery is needed, but I also don't think tanking is a serious issue. There are just too many people involved with their own motives for tanking to be a legitimate thing. But that doesn't matter. NFL fans believing it's a real issue is an issue, which is why the lottery is incoming imo.
It's still incumbent on the plaintiff (Flores) to provide proof of his allegation that Ross (Dolphins Owner) offered a financial incentive to lose games.
The Dolphins GM Chris Grier has been with the Dolphins since for over 20yrs working his way up from being an area scout in 2000. He's likely pretty loyal to the organization and Owner and I doubt he's going to validate any of these allegations.
This story is great for the media and get people outraged with clickbait, but that complaint is hearsay. Some or all could be true, but for now it's just an allegation by an former employee.
Dread wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:03 am
It's still incumbent on the plaintiff (Flores) to provide proof of his allegation that Ross (Dolphins Owner) offered a financial incentive to lose games.
The Dolphins GM Chris Grier has been with the Dolphins since for over 20yrs working his way up from being an area scout in 2000. He's likely pretty loyal to the organization and Owner and I doubt he's going to validate any of these allegations.
This story is great for the media and get people outraged with clickbait, but that complaint is hearsay. Some or all could be true, but for now it's just an allegation by an former employee.
The shit about discriminatory practices by the NYG at least has corroboration in the form of Darth Belichick's texts with Flores. The Dolphins thing may be harder to prove but Stephen Ross is a scumbag so I'm naturally leaning towards believing Flores in this case.
Dread wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:03 am
It's still incumbent on the plaintiff (Flores) to provide proof of his allegation that Ross (Dolphins Owner) offered a financial incentive to lose games.
The Dolphins GM Chris Grier has been with the Dolphins since for over 20yrs working his way up from being an area scout in 2000. He's likely pretty loyal to the organization and Owner and I doubt he's going to validate any of these allegations.
This story is great for the media and get people outraged with clickbait, but that complaint is hearsay. Some or all could be true, but for now it's just an allegation by an former employee.
The shit about discriminatory practices by the NYG at least has corroboration in the form of Darth Belichick's texts with Flores.
Maybe, Maybe not. Depends on the chronology of events.
The alleged text convo does demand additional digging though for sure.
If the Flores interview with the Giants for that "Thursday" was scheduled the week prior and sometime after the Giants scheduled that interview with Flores they came the determination Daboll was their guy (he could've likely been the #1 candidate in their search given his ties to the new GM they hired) then I think the argument it was racial discrimination is tough.
But the lawsuit should lead to a discovery process where these details should come to light. Which in part is why it was filed I'm sure.
Doctor wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:23 am
100% Ross should be forced to sell the team. But that would be breaking new ground in the NFL. And there are plenty of other piece of shit owners deeply invested in that line never being crossed because once it's crossed they'll be in danger too. Maintaining that shield is probably the one thing more important to them than money.
I don't think a lottery is needed, but I also don't think tanking is a serious issue. There are just too many people involved with their own motives for tanking to be a legitimate thing. But that doesn't matter. NFL fans believing it's a real issue is an issue, which is why the lottery is incoming imo.
100% agree with you on both items. Snyder probably should have been forced to sell the WFT (Commanders) based on some of the things we learned.
