Welcome Baker Mayfield

[Doctor]

Lamar Jackson was a project?????

People will say just about anything huh

Lamar wasn't a "project" to John Harbaugh. He was thrilled when Lamar was available when the Ravens drafted.

I mean he was no Hayden Hurst.

[CannonFire]

Not sure what your 1st question means. I'm not bringing up rookie and 1st year starters... that was you who brought up Hurts, not me.

Yeah, the Browns had Chubb, but he didn't have anyone as good as Evans or Godwin either. So what's your point... if you give him elite talent to work with he'll be good? I think any QB would do that. No need to waste money on Mayfield for that.

If we extend him and he regresses (lol, like thats really an "if"), what happens is we have a roster that we wasted a year on and we still need a qb.

I like how you dodged the question by saying Winston and Freeman were nuts. Props.

You're cutting out arguably Mayfield's best year as a passer in your comparison.

You're losing me. You don't like Mayfield, ok. That's fine. I'm not arguing that he's some elite player. He's good enough. Yes, you surround a good enough player with other elite players and good/great coaching chances are they will do well. What are we talking about here? Mayfield is a QB you have to commit nothing but mid-tier QB money to. If you move on you have to commit draft capital, and late draft capital at that, to the position and then start that player immediately or start Trask.

Why do some of you want to lose games so badly?

You're losing yourself, I've NEVER cut out Mayfield's best passing season, it was 2020 and I've mentioned it multiple times. I'll give you the perfect equivalent. Baker Mayfield = Joe Flacco. If you have an elite defense, elite running game, and a rookie QB contract, you can win games... even a Super Bowl. Once you stop paying the mediocre QB rookie money and giving starter money (that he doesn't deserve), you no longer can afford an elite defense and elite running game. Over the next 6 seasons, you have a sub .500 record and go 0-2 in the playoffs.

So, while you ask me why I want to lose so badly. My response is, I don't want to lose... I want to win. My question to you is, why do some of you want to be mediocre so badly? Why don't you want to win?

[CannonFire]

I'm curious.... how many of the "We need to extend Mayfield" crowd said the same thing about Freeman and Winston. LOL. It's amazing, every time we have a mediocre to below average QB who puts up decent numbers (except for the one that matters... WINS), so many want to crown these guys. The fact is, for as much as people want to bash Cleveland (not like they don't deserve it), we've never in our history had a franchise QB to hold over that over their heads.

When I found out that Freeman was in the substance abuse program, I was done with him. I for one wanted to not even take the 5th year option on Winston after he groped that Uber driver. He would clearly never grow up and be a real franchise QB. I know a lot of people who felt the same

Got it. So as long as Mayfield is a nice guy (which I will definitely say, he is... and I find him very likeable and funny), you're ok with keeping him despite the fact that he's holding the team back?

[Bootz]

When I found out that Freeman was in the substance abuse program, I was done with him. I for one wanted to not even take the 5th year option on Winston after he groped that Uber driver. He would clearly never grow up and be a real franchise QB. I know a lot of people who felt the same

Got it. So as long as Mayfield is a nice guy (which I will definitely say, he is... and I find him very likeable and funny), you're ok with keeping him despite the fact that he's holding the team back?

Saying he's holding the team back would indicate that all of the aspects of the team around him are succeeding and being limited by him directly. As some have pointed out the defense has the 32nd ranked passing game. We have the 32nd rated run game on offense. That doesn't suggest that the QB is holding the team back.

[CannonFire]

Career year? Sorry dude, 2020 was better than 2023. He had an 11-win season, a higher QBR, and had a lesser team around him (in total), in 2020 than he does in 2023 in Tampa. He had a brand new offense in 2020 also. No one's harping, just pointing out that a guy who no one wanted the last 2 off-seasons, is still performing at the same level as his best year... when no one wanted him then.

He had the third best rushing attack and a far superior offensive line compared to an iOL that gets walked back nearly every snap and a running back room that can't get an inch after contact and you call their offense inferior?

...and mediocre receiving weapons. His two best pass catchers that year (Landry & Hooper), combined for less yards and TD's than just Evans this year. So, even with significantly better weapons, he couldn't produce even slightly better numbers. At best, his offense overall, is the same. He produced similar results. Mediocre production. Oh, and we played a softer schedule AND have a better defense... and we have a worse record. The way I see it, he took an 11-win team and made them a 9-win team.

[CannonFire]

Got it. So as long as Mayfield is a nice guy (which I will definitely say, he is... and I find him very likeable and funny), you're ok with keeping him despite the fact that he's holding the team back?

Saying he's holding the team back would indicate that all of the aspects of the team around him are succeeding and being limited by him directly. As some have pointed out the defense has the 32nd ranked passing game. We have the 32nd rated run game on offense. That doesn't suggest that the QB is holding the team back.

No it doesn't. Our total defense is giving up the 9th fewest points in the league. In total, our defense is "good", it's not great. Our RB has the 3rd most total yards from scrimmage in the NFL (RB's). Our backfield is "good", it's not great. Yet, our team is "average", it's not good. Our "average" QB is holding the team back.

[Bootz]

Saying he's holding the team back would indicate that all of the aspects of the team around him are succeeding and being limited by him directly. As some have pointed out the defense has the 32nd ranked passing game. We have the 32nd rated run game on offense. That doesn't suggest that the QB is holding the team back.

No it doesn't. Our total defense is giving up the 9th fewest points in the league. In total, our defense is "good", it's not great. Our RB has the 3rd most total yards from scrimmage in the NFL (RB's). Our backfield is "good", it's not great. Yet, our team is "average", it's not good. Our "average" QB is holding the team back.

You're starting to embarrass yourself now.

The 32nd ranked running game is "good"??

[Grahamburn]

You're cutting out arguably Mayfield's best year as a passer in your comparison.

You're losing me. You don't like Mayfield, ok. That's fine. I'm not arguing that he's some elite player. He's good enough. Yes, you surround a good enough player with other elite players and good/great coaching chances are they will do well. What are we talking about here? Mayfield is a QB you have to commit nothing but mid-tier QB money to. If you move on you have to commit draft capital, and late draft capital at that, to the position and then start that player immediately or start Trask.

Why do some of you want to lose games so badly?

You're losing yourself, I've NEVER cut out Mayfield's best passing season, it was 2020 and I've mentioned it multiple times. I'll give you the perfect equivalent. Baker Mayfield = Joe Flacco. If you have an elite defense, elite running game, and a rookie QB contract, you can win games... even a Super Bowl. Once you stop paying the mediocre QB rookie money and giving starter money (that he doesn't deserve), you no longer can afford an elite defense and elite running game. Over the next 6 seasons, you have a sub .500 record and go 0-2 in the playoffs.

So, while you ask me why I want to lose so badly. My response is, I don't want to lose... I want to win. My question to you is, why do some of you want to be mediocre so badly? Why don't you want to win?

Fair enough. His passer rating this year is identical to 2020 at 95.9. He's averaging more yards per game, has thrown for more touchdowns (28 to 26) through 16 games, and has a better completion percentage this year. I'm not sure what the point of being disingenuous about it is by ignoring the season he has had in 2023 with the Bucs?

You don't like him nor want to extend him for whatever reason. That's fine. But, give credit where it's due. If you could promise me we'd get Baker Mayfield+ from Trask or a player on a rookie contract in 2024 I'd be all for it. I just don't think it's realistic. I also want to keep Mike, and I think extending Baker is step one in making that happen.

[Bootz]

Was Tom Brady holding this team back in 2022?

[13F11B]

When we look at the passing game performance of this team...
Think about Mike Evans. How did Johnny Football do without him? How did Jameis Winston do with him? Now Jameis can't even start. How did Baker do last season without him? How did Brady do his last season with the Patriots? I think Brady picked the Buccaneers because he LIKED the receivers the team had. I think Mayfield picked the Buccaneers for such a low number because he LIKED the receivers the team has.

The problem for Brady last year and Mayfield this year is the lack of a safety valve TE like Gronk. Oh, and the injuries to the OL.

[Doctor]

How you gonna say you can never win with Baker then compare him to Flacco.

[Jonny]

When we look at the passing game performance of this team...
Think about Mike Evans. How did Johnny Football do without him? How did Jameis Winston do with him? Now Jameis can't even start. How did Baker do last season without him? How did Brady do his last season with the Patriots? I think Brady picked the Buccaneers because he LIKED the receivers the team had. I think Mayfield picked the Buccaneers for such a low number because he LIKED the receivers the team has.

The problem for Brady last year and Mayfield this year is the lack of a safety valve TE like Gronk. Oh, and the injuries to the OL.

It pisses me off so much when Cade Otton gets to be on the field and gets targets on 3rd downs. I understand he's the best we've got at that position and he has good hands, but he is less athletic than Cam Brate was in 2022 before he retired. If there is one position where we could use a major upgrade on offense, it is the TE position.

[Grahamburn]

Decent year for free agent TEs.

[Jonny]

Decent year for free agent TEs.

I think it is a great year for a team like ours who will spend most of the cap space on retaining our own and will have some monies left to get a tier-2 under the radar type TE.

[CannonFire]

Lamar Jackson was a "passing" project, not a "QB" project. He needed to develop his passing game... and that was something that was addressed over time while he was doing what he does best, and that's run. I think every team was on par with that. The thing is, guys who run first and pass second, don't have a track record of working out. It also doesn't project well in the playoffs. In the regular season you can get away with it because you play a lot of teams that are "ok" and not good, but in the playoffs, you're essentially playing the best teams. Though, now, with 7 teams in the playoffs, you're seeing "average" teams in there more and more. That said, a run-first QB can get you to the playoffs (if he stays healthy), but in the playoffs, what can he do for you?

When you look back over time where guys were run-first QB's, the ONLY one who can be thought of as a success is Russell Wilson. Like Wilson, Jackson can win you a Super Bowl... if you have an elite defense and elite run game to go with it. Once you start paying that QB REAL money, like in Seattle, the playoffs wins and Super Bowls go away. After he signed his new deal, they had 2 playoffs wins in 5 years. The problem you run into is that, like Wilson, once the threat to run isn't there, he's no longer a good QB. Wilson has been done for 3 years, the Seahawks knew that and were fine with moving on from him. Denver is now seeing that as well, though a little late to that party.

So, when teams are drafting, they're sitting there saying "Is he like Russell Wilson or like Michael Vick, RG3, Mariota, Murray, Tebow, etc"? Are they looking at the exception or the rule, so to speak. I think that's why someone like Jackson fell to #32. The Ravens weren't sure if they had the exception or the rule, but figured by getting into Round 1, you get that extra year and a bit of a discount because he got a lot less money (signing bonus), than the guys who went in the top 10 that year.

Let's not forget that that even after last season, there was still speculation about whether the Ravens were going to re-sign Jackson, because of the financial demands, given the injury issue. Let's also be honest that in his first 4 years as a starter, he's only 1-2 in the playoffs. I'm not going to count his rookie season loss against him, as he only played half the season.

[CannonFire]

You're losing yourself, I've NEVER cut out Mayfield's best passing season, it was 2020 and I've mentioned it multiple times. I'll give you the perfect equivalent. Baker Mayfield = Joe Flacco. If you have an elite defense, elite running game, and a rookie QB contract, you can win games... even a Super Bowl. Once you stop paying the mediocre QB rookie money and giving starter money (that he doesn't deserve), you no longer can afford an elite defense and elite running game. Over the next 6 seasons, you have a sub .500 record and go 0-2 in the playoffs.

So, while you ask me why I want to lose so badly. My response is, I don't want to lose... I want to win. My question to you is, why do some of you want to be mediocre so badly? Why don't you want to win?

Fair enough. His passer rating this year is identical to 2020 at 95.9. He's averaging more yards per game, has thrown for more touchdowns (28 to 26) through 16 games, and has a better completion percentage this year. I'm not sure what the point of being disingenuous about it is by ignoring the season he has had in 2023 with the Bucs?

You don't like him nor want to extend him for whatever reason. That's fine. But, give credit where it's due. If you could promise me we'd get Baker Mayfield+ from Trask or a player on a rookie contract in 2024 I'd be all for it. I just don't think it's realistic. I also want to keep Mike, and I think extending Baker is step one in making that happen.

His QBR in 2020 was 65.5, this year it's 10 points lower at 55.5. Heck, in 2019 when he threw 22 TD's and 21 Int's, it was 54.4 - only a tick worse than this year. It's not being disingenuous, it's taking into account the total impact. It's willing to see not just the trees, but the whole forest.

I don't dislike him, he is what he is... a mediocre to below average starter, who's best used as a cheap 1-year stop gap or a long term (financially manageable), backup. Correct, I don't want him re-signed, because he doesn't improve out team... THAT's the "reason".

I have very little faith in Trask as well, BUT, I agree we have issues with run blocking... I never said we didn't. I'd much rather put money into upgrading the interior OL, than putting it in Mayfield. I think an improved OLine, plus Trask could do the same thing as Mayfield. Trask would give us more financial flexibility. NOW, I'm not saying Trask is "the guy", I'm saying that if he's the guy for next year, along with the drafting of a QB.

If keeping Evans means keeping Mayfield, then all you did is spend a lot more money to NOT win. If you're ok with that, then that's fine, it's all you... but don't tell me that I want to lose. I want to win. Moving on from Mayfield means being closer to winning, than keeping him.

[CannonFire]

No it doesn't. Our total defense is giving up the 9th fewest points in the league. In total, our defense is "good", it's not great. Our RB has the 3rd most total yards from scrimmage in the NFL (RB's). Our backfield is "good", it's not great. Yet, our team is "average", it's not good. Our "average" QB is holding the team back.

You're starting to embarrass yourself now.

The 32nd ranked running game is "good"??

I said our "backfield". You're the one embarrassing yourself if you think that the only aspect of our backfield is rushing. Chicago is ranked 2nd in rushing... how are they doing? How about Arizona, they're #6 or Atlanta, they're #8.

[CannonFire]

How you gonna say you can never win with Baker then compare him to Flacco.

Simple... Flacco won on his rookie contract when he was cheap. He, like Mayfield, are mediocre to below average QB's who are capable of NOT LOSING if the team around them is elite. Once you pay the man, you lose his best attribute... cheap.

Kinda common sense.

[CannonFire]

When we look at the passing game performance of this team...
Think about Mike Evans. How did Johnny Football do without him? How did Jameis Winston do with him? Now Jameis can't even start. How did Baker do last season without him? How did Brady do his last season with the Patriots? I think Brady picked the Buccaneers because he LIKED the receivers the team had. I think Mayfield picked the Buccaneers for such a low number because he LIKED the receivers the team has.

The problem for Brady last year and Mayfield this year is the lack of a safety valve TE like Gronk. Oh, and the injuries to the OL.

It pisses me off so much when Cade Otton gets to be on the field and gets targets on 3rd downs. I understand he's the best we've got at that position and he has good hands, but he is less athletic than Cam Brate was in 2022 before he retired. If there is one position where we could use a major upgrade on offense, it is the TE position.

I'm fine with Otton. He's good enough as a 4th option. If Palmer or one of the other guys can take a step forward (or Gage actually play), then I see no reason to spend money on a TE who isn't cheap.

[Bootz]

You're starting to embarrass yourself now.

The 32nd ranked running game is "good"??

I said our "backfield". You're the one embarrassing yourself if you think that the only aspect of our backfield is rushing. Chicago is ranked 2nd in rushing... how are they doing? How about Arizona, they're #6 or Atlanta, they're #8.

Now those are 3 teams that you can make legitimate arguments for that their QBs are holding them back. In Chicago though, Fields is actually their top rusher. Atlanta has switched back and forth between QBs and will be in the market. Arizona has committed to Kyler Murray next season, most because they don't have a choice.

But those are examples of teams being held back by their QB, not this one.

[CannonFire]

I said our "backfield". You're the one embarrassing yourself if you think that the only aspect of our backfield is rushing. Chicago is ranked 2nd in rushing... how are they doing? How about Arizona, they're #6 or Atlanta, they're #8.

Now those are 3 teams that you can make legitimate arguments for that their QBs are holding them back. In Chicago though, Fields is actually their top rusher. Atlanta has switched back and forth between QBs and will be in the market. Arizona has committed to Kyler Murray next season, most because they don't have a choice.

But those are examples of teams being held back by their QB, not this one.

Yeah, only "the other guys", right? LOL

[Backside]

How you gonna say you can never win with Baker then compare him to Flacco.

Simple... Flacco won on his rookie contract when he was cheap. He, like Mayfield, are mediocre to below average QB's who are capable of NOT LOSING if the team around them is elite. Once you pay the man, you lose his best attribute... cheap.

Kinda common sense.

That is incredibly disingenuous. Flacco had an all time great playoff run. They didn't hide him and win in spite of him, or just ask him to not fuck up. He carried that fucking team and went on an insane heater.

[CannonFire]

Simple... Flacco won on his rookie contract when he was cheap. He, like Mayfield, are mediocre to below average QB's who are capable of NOT LOSING if the team around them is elite. Once you pay the man, you lose his best attribute... cheap.

Kinda common sense.

That is incredibly disingenuous. Flacco had an all time great playoff run. They didn't hide him and win in spite of him, or just ask him to not fuck up. He carried that fucking team and went on an insane heater.

In the playoffs? That ONE year? Yeah... how about every other game that year or other years there? He was an average QB who didn't f' it up. I mean, good for him. Nothing wrong with that. We all know that average QB's can have great games... even below average QB's. Look at Nick Foles in the 2017 Super Bowl... even the NFCCG that year. Heck, in one other season he threw what, 7 TD passes against Oakland. That year, he threw 27 TD's and only 2 INT's. Let's not pretend that someone is better than what they are because of an isolated incident.

Flacco's best passer rating in any year was under 94. Nick Foles in one season had a 119. LOL

Joe Flacco 2012 playoffs... completed 58%, passes for 1140 yards and 11 TD's (4 games), had a 117.2 passer rating.
Nick Foles 2017 playoffs... completed 72%, passes for 971 yards and 6 TD's, 1 Int (3 games), had a 115.7 passer rating,

[Doctor]

These hero worshippers have been selling us this same nonsense for years. You need a super star!

You can win with a Flacco. An Eli, a Mayfield, Jimmy G, Cam, Vick or Kaep. In the right fit, you absolutely can.

Just like Lamar, Mahomes or Rodgers would lose miserably and be nobodies in the wrong situation. That's football.

[CannonFire]

These hero worshippers have been selling us this same nonsense for years. You need a super star!

You can win with a Flacco. An Eli, a Mayfield, Jimmy G, Cam, Vick or Kaep. In the right fit, you absolutely can.

Just like Lamar, Mahomes or Rodgers would lose miserably and be nobodies in the wrong situation. That's football.

You CAN win with those guys... ON A ROOKIE CONTRACT! You CAN'T win with those guys on a big money contract. I mean, some people just want to take an argument someone is making... alter it (because they have no answer for it), and then argue against the altered argument that no one was making. LOL

Honestly, I think Rodgers is a choke artist in the playoffs, but that may just be me.

[Backside]

That is incredibly disingenuous. Flacco had an all time great playoff run. They didn't hide him and win in spite of him, or just ask him to not fuck up. He carried that fucking team and went on an insane heater.

In the playoffs? That ONE year? Yeah... how about every other game that year or other years there? He was an average QB who didn't f' it up. I mean, good for him. Nothing wrong with that. We all know that average QB's can have great games... even below average QB's. Look at Nick Foles in the 2017 Super Bowl... even the NFCCG that year. Heck, in one other season he threw what, 7 TD passes against Oakland. That year, he threw 27 TD's and only 2 INT's. Let's not pretend that someone is better than what they are because of an isolated incident.

Flacco's best passer rating in any year was under 94. Nick Foles in one season had a 119. LOL

Joe Flacco 2012 playoffs... completed 58%, passes for 1140 yards and 11 TD's (4 games), had a 117.2 passer rating.
Nick Foles 2017 playoffs... completed 72%, passes for 971 yards and 6 TD's, 1 Int (3 games), had a 115.7 passer rating,

So is Flacco capable of carrying a team to a Super Bowl or is he not? He is not the only QB to look mediocre and then go on a heater in the playoffs. So can you win with these guys or can't you? Seems like the goal posts keep moving.

[Grahamburn]

Fair enough. His passer rating this year is identical to 2020 at 95.9. He's averaging more yards per game, has thrown for more touchdowns (28 to 26) through 16 games, and has a better completion percentage this year. I'm not sure what the point of being disingenuous about it is by ignoring the season he has had in 2023 with the Bucs?

You don't like him nor want to extend him for whatever reason. That's fine. But, give credit where it's due. If you could promise me we'd get Baker Mayfield+ from Trask or a player on a rookie contract in 2024 I'd be all for it. I just don't think it's realistic. I also want to keep Mike, and I think extending Baker is step one in making that happen.

His QBR in 2020 was 65.5, this year it's 10 points lower at 55.5. Heck, in 2019 when he threw 22 TD's and 21 Int's, it was 54.4 - only a tick worse than this year. It's not being disingenuous, it's taking into account the total impact. It's willing to see not just the trees, but the whole forest.

I don't dislike him, he is what he is... a mediocre to below average starter, who's best used as a cheap 1-year stop gap or a long term (financially manageable), backup. Correct, I don't want him re-signed, because he doesn't improve out team... THAT's the "reason".

I have very little faith in Trask as well, BUT, I agree we have issues with run blocking... I never said we didn't. I'd much rather put money into upgrading the interior OL, than putting it in Mayfield. I think an improved OLine, plus Trask could do the same thing as Mayfield. Trask would give us more financial flexibility. NOW, I'm not saying Trask is "the guy", I'm saying that if he's the guy for next year, along with the drafting of a QB.

If keeping Evans means keeping Mayfield, then all you did is spend a lot more money to NOT win. If you're ok with that, then that's fine, it's all you... but don't tell me that I want to lose. I want to win. Moving on from Mayfield means being closer to winning, than keeping him.

Then tell me the plan. We let Baker sign elsewhere. Who’s our QB in 2024?

[Grahamburn]

Trask and a rookie? 1st round/2nd round? This is the way to winning?

[acmillis]

Trask and a rookie? 1st round/2nd round? This is the way to winning?

I'd rather have that than pay Baker $25M+/year, yes.

[Grahamburn]

Trask and a rookie? 1st round/2nd round? This is the way to winning?

I'd rather have that than pay Baker $25M+/year, yes.

I do not understand that, but to each their own. I’d rather win 8-10 games a year and have a shot at playoff games than be the Jets. Personally.

They finally took their shot trying to be us and that blew up in their face too.

[Doctor]

You're chasing your own tail.

Overpaying is always bad. Here's a secret, you don't have to overpay. No one is saying to make Baker the next Jalen. But you know this. In your eyes paying ANYTHING for guys that can't win it for you is overpaying. Round and round we go.

Also the whole rookie deal thing is way overblown. For starters a players peak is not 22. Second it usually takes awhile before things get going. Even when you have a rookie hit the road running on fire, they usually stumble some soon after, hence why the term sophomore slump is a thing.

It's always awesome when players have great years and don't cost you much. It's not some magic bullet.

[Bootz]

I'd rather have that than pay Baker $25M+/year, yes.

I do not understand that, but to each their own. I’d rather win 8-10 games a year and have a shot at playoff games than be the Jets. Personally.

They finally took their shot trying to be us and that blew up in their face too.

He. Does. Not. Care. About. Us. Winning. If you go into the year with Kyle Trask as part of your plans, it's already doomed to fail. Any rookie we draft will have the position locked up by OTAs at the latest.

[acmillis]

I do not understand that, but to each their own. I’d rather win 8-10 games a year and have a shot at playoff games than be the Jets. Personally.

They finally took their shot trying to be us and that blew up in their face too.

He. Does. Not. Care. About. Us. Winning. If you go into the year with Kyle Trask as part of your plans, it's already doomed to fail. Any rookie we draft will have the position locked up by OTAs at the latest.

Is that a bad thing?
Also, I could say the exact same thing about Baker, "If you go into the year with Baker Mayfield as part of your plans, it's already doomed to fail."

Go ahead and miss me with the 8-9 wins and a (possible) division title is not failure BS. This team and Baker Mayfield are both mediocre. I don't want mediocre. And because of me not wanting mediocre, I want to move on from Baker and draft a rookie. Yes, roll the dice. The rookie might be worse than me at football, we don't know. The rookie might be better than Tom Brady at football, again, we don't know.

We know what Baker is, and to me, he is not good enough for my liking.

[acmillis]

I do not understand that, but to each their own. I’d rather win 8-10 games a year and have a shot at playoff games than be the Jets. Personally.

They finally took their shot trying to be us and that blew up in their face too.

He. Does. Not. Care. About. Us. Winning. If you go into the year with Kyle Trask as part of your plans, it's already doomed to fail. Any rookie we draft will have the position locked up by OTAs at the latest.

Holy shit, you know what I just realized?!?!?
Bootz is Gruden. He does not want to give a rookie (or an unproven 2nd round pick) a shot at playing whatsoever. Gruden Bootz only wants the veteran, no matter how average that veteran is. Wow...totally makes sense now.

[Bootz]

He. Does. Not. Care. About. Us. Winning. If you go into the year with Kyle Trask as part of your plans, it's already doomed to fail. Any rookie we draft will have the position locked up by OTAs at the latest.

Is that a bad thing?
Also, I could say the exact same thing about Baker, "If you go into the year with Baker Mayfield as part of your plans, it's already doomed to fail."

Go ahead and miss me with the 8-9 wins and a (possible) division title is not failure BS. This team and Baker Mayfield are both mediocre. I don't want mediocre. And because of me not wanting mediocre, I want to move on from Baker and draft a rookie. Yes, roll the dice. The rookie might be worse than me at football, we don't know. The rookie might be better than Tom Brady at football, again, we don't know.

We know what Baker is, and to me, he is not good enough for my liking.

You're the only one considering a division title a failure, kiddo. This team didn't have a high prognosis for this season and exceeded expectations