Evaluating TE going into 2024-2025

[Grahamburn]

C.Otton is trash

TE is one of our weakest positions.

Trash seems a touch harsh. I’d love to see one of you dorks call these guys “trash” to their face.

He’s an average NFL tight end, which is to say, he’s a lot better than “trash.”

[Bootz]

C.Otton is trash

TE is one of our weakest positions.

"Just be patient"

I'm sure he'll become......something....

[Sdbucs]

C.Otton is trash

TE is one of our weakest positions.

Trash seems a touch harsh. I’d love to see one of you dorks call these guys “trash” to their face.

He’s an average NFL tight end, which is to say, he’s a lot better than “trash.”

PFF had Cotton at #43 TE in 2023 regular season. Teams literally had multiple TEs better than him on their roster. That is TRASH.

And yes the internet is a tool that lets people make points without getting their face blasted in. He seems like a great guy but he’s not the answer at TE

[Doctor]

I don’t think Bowers gets past the Colts.

Doc flip floppin all off season on his 1st pick wishlist.

I mean a stacked class will do that but I think I have made my shortlist clear, with Bowers being in the "long gone" list.

[Bootz]

Trash seems a touch harsh. I’d love to see one of you dorks call these guys “trash” to their face.

He’s an average NFL tight end, which is to say, he’s a lot better than “trash.”

PFF had Cotton at #43 TE in 2023 regular season. Teams literally had multiple TEs better than him on their roster. That is TRASH.

And yes the internet is a tool that lets people make points without getting their face blasted in. He seems like a great guy but he’s not the answer at TE

Cotton is trash to anyone who knows what they are seeing. All Graham sees is rainbows, sunshine, and rose colors behind those shades he has superglued to his face. He thinks the fact that he chooses not to view this team objectively makes him a superfan.

[Phantom]

I don't think Graham fully understands the meaning of average. Our wide receiver group, with the exception of Evans and Godwin and our tight end group are both TERRIBLE.

[Cheb]

I don't think Graham fully understands the meaning of average. Our wide receiver group, with the exception of Evans and Godwin and our tight end group are both TERRIBLE.

Excluding the top two receivers from most teams leaves the cupboard pretty bare, my dude.

The best passing team in the league by yardage last year, the Dolphins, if forced to play without their top two guys in Tyreek Hill and Jaylen Waddle, are trotting out Braxton Berrios and I don't even know who. The rest of their receivers are dog water.

We could do this for the number 2 team as well to prove it ain't a fluke. Take away their top two guys in Amon-Ra St Brown and Sam LaPorta, and Jared Goff is now looking far more pedestrian slinging it to Josh Reynolds and Kalif Raymond as his first and second options.

You can keep going down the list of NFL teams, and it doesn't get much better.

---

I digress. I'd argue that Cade Otton is a good young tight end, and Trey Palmer is pretty good. Moreover, I think we shouldn't overlook Raashad Whites's capacity as a receiver.

There are only so many balls to go around a game. The median number of passing attempts per game in the NFL last year was around 34. Looking at last year's data, Mike averages exactly 8 targets a game, Chris had near as many, so that's damn near half your passing targets per game just with those two guys. Palmer, White, and Otton averaged about 4 targets per game apiece, rounding them out to 12.

Assuming we have similar useage this season, that's 30 of our 34 pass attempts per game with just those five guys, the other four went to miscellaneous players.

I say all that to ask the following questions. Firstly, if we add a theoretical tight end or receiver, whose targets and balls is he taking? Secondly, would shifting those targets to a rookie make much of a difference in our end of season record?

[Big Irv]

PFF’s 43rd ranking is trash. He is a serviceable TE. An upgrade would be nice, but it’s certainly not a priority. Especially since he’s still on his rookie deal.

[mdb1958]

PFF’s 43rd ranking is trash. He is a serviceable TE. An upgrade would be nice, but it’s certainly not a priority. Especially since he’s still on his rookie deal.

THANK YOU FOR USING COMMON SENSE. 2 TE's in the top 100!

[mdb1958]

C.Otton is trash

TE is one of our weakest positions.

Trash seems a touch harsh. I’d love to see one of you dorks call these guys “trash” to their face.

He’s an average NFL tight end, which is to say, he’s a lot better than “trash.”

Would he have been better if he was blessed with forty more targets from Evans and Godwin..

[mdb1958]

Durham needs to start his stats and Taula needs to replace Wells.

[Bootz]

Durham needs to start his stats and Taula needs to replace Wells.

Durham looks like he's running with bricks in his shoes. Doubt he ever becomes a reliable weapon.

[mdb1958]

Durham needs to start his stats and Taula needs to replace Wells.

Durham looks like he's running with bricks in his shoes. Doubt he ever becomes a reliable weapon.

Didnt we do two picks to get Durham?

[Bootz]

Durham looks like he's running with bricks in his shoes. Doubt he ever becomes a reliable weapon.

Didnt we do two picks to get Durham?

We gave a 7th to the Rams to move up 4 spots.

[mdb1958]

Didnt we do two picks to get Durham?

We gave a 7th to the Rams to move up 4 spots.

So thats 4 picks for 2 contracted TE's.

[GreatTimes]

The Bucs need to find a college basketball power forward that they can convert to a TE.

[Obsolete]

[mdb1958]

I guess they didnt hear me.

[Sdbucs]

If you had Evan Engram but every other team had a Gronk clone, would you say your team is lacking at TE?

Yes.

Just because Cotton isn’t making outwardly bad plays or mistakes doesn’t mean that he is significantly worse than league standards. Again, PFF shows 40+ TEs performing at a higher level than him. To win in the NFL you have to be better than your opponents, not just be “good enough”.

[Bootz]

The Bucs need to find a college basketball power forward that they can convert to a TE.

Not sure a 6'9 to 6'11 guy is gonna do well at the NFL level. Unless the plan is just to use him for jump balls in the endzone.

[GreatTimes]

The Bucs need to find a college basketball power forward that they can convert to a TE.

Not sure a 6'9 to 6'11 guy is gonna do well at the NFL level. Unless the plan is just to use him for jump balls in the endzone.

Tony Gonzalez

[mdb1958]

Not sure a 6'9 to 6'11 guy is gonna do well at the NFL level. Unless the plan is just to use him for jump balls in the endzone.

Tony Gonzalez

All our TE's are taller than Gonzalez.

[CannonFire]

I don't have a real issue with Otton or Kieft from an offensive stance. Our WR's and TE's are a product of the system and the execution of it, be it the game plan, game calling, and QB. I think Otton is ok enough to not have to invest a draft pick in one, unless a great option that's too good to pass up. Kieft was brought in to be a blocker, not a pass catcher. Anything he gives us there, should be considered a bonus. That said, I don't think he's all that good of a blocker, so upgrading him is fine, but with the holes we need filled, I can't see a justification of using one of our first 5 picks on a TE to upgrade him... this year.

Players I'm ok with at the draft spot to upgrade Otton or Kieft:
#26 - Brock Bowers
#89/92 - Ja'Tavion Sanders
#125 - Cade Stover/Theo Johnson
#220 - Tip Reiman

[Selmon Rules]

Not sure a 6'9 to 6'11 guy is gonna do well at the NFL level. Unless the plan is just to use him for jump balls in the endzone.

Tony Gonzalez

Add: Antonio Gates

TE is not a position that cost is wins in 2023.... It could be argued that IOL and edge did

[Big Irv]

If you had Evan Engram but every other team had a Gronk clone, would you say your team is lacking at TE?

Yes.

Just because Cotton isn’t making outwardly bad plays or mistakes doesn’t mean that he is significantly worse than league standards. Again, PFF shows 40+ TEs performing at a higher level than him. To win in the NFL you have to be better than your opponents, not just be “good enough”.

Otton was 21st in the NFL among TEs, with 67 targets.
21st in receptions with 47
21st in yards with 455
Tied for 12th in touchdowns with 4

I don’t know where PFF got 43 from, but I’d say he’s somewhere around the 21st best TE.

On top of that, he is 76th among TEs in yearly salary at $1,130,985. So, if I were the Bucs, I wouldn’t expend too many resources on his replacement.

[Grahamburn]

If you had Evan Engram but every other team had a Gronk clone, would you say your team is lacking at TE?

Yes.

Just because Cotton isn’t making outwardly bad plays or mistakes doesn’t mean that he is significantly worse than league standards. Again, PFF shows 40+ TEs performing at a higher level than him. To win in the NFL you have to be better than your opponents, not just be “good enough”.

Otton was 21st in the NFL among TEs, with 67 targets.
21st in receptions with 47
21st in yards with 455
Tied for 12th in touchdowns with 4

I don’t know where PFF got 43 from, but I’d say he’s somewhere around the 21st best TE.

On top of that, he is 76th among TEs in yearly salary at $1,130,985. So, if I were the Bucs, I wouldn’t expend too many resources on his replacement.

He struggled as a blocker last year.

Otton regressed as a run blocker according to Pro Football Focus, earning a grade of 50 last year after a 58.8 grade as a rookie. He fared even worse as a pass protector with a 44.9 PFF grade after posting a 78.3 grade as a rookie. Otton intends to hit the weight room this offseason to help get stronger at the point of attack on the line of scrimmage.

[Cheb]

I mean, Cade certainly is no Gronkowski when it comes to the blocking game, but I can't recall thinking that he was torpedoing our running attack.

[Grahamburn]

I mean, Cade certainly is no Gronkowski when it comes to the blocking game, but I can't recall thinking that he was torpedoing our running attack.

Group effort.

[Bootz]

I mean, Cade certainly is no Gronkowski when it comes to the blocking game, but I can't recall thinking that he was torpedoing our running attack.

No that was the IOLs doing.

[mdb1958]

What grade did PFF give Otton and Durham for their last year in college? It could be useful for looking at this years crop.

[Sdbucs]

Otton

2021 - 65.8 (TE #41)
2020 - 82.4 (TE #12)
2019 - 73.2
2018 - 75.9

Durham
2022 - 67.7 (TE #37)
2021 - 68.1 (TE #33)
2020 - 48.8
2019 - 61.9


Cottons 2020 peak would have him at TE #5 this year in the draft.

Kincaid was a 91, Mayer a 92.5 last year.

Trey McBride a 94.8

Kyle Pitts a 95.7

Bowers an 85.9 this year. PFF shows Harold Fannin Jr. out of Bowling Green as #1 at 89.8 in 2023

Bowers:

2023 - 85.9 - #3
2022 - 81.7 - #5
2021 - 91.9 - #3

[Sdbucs]

Per PFF the 2023 TE draft class is awful with the exception of Bowers.

[mdb1958]

Wow, you probably have ASJ's score.

[Jonny]

I digress. I'd argue that Cade Otton is a good young tight end, and Trey Palmer is pretty good. Moreover, I think we shouldn't overlook Raashad Whites's capacity as a receiver.

There are only so many balls to go around a game. The median number of passing attempts per game in the NFL last year was around 34. Looking at last year's data, Mike averages exactly 8 targets a game, Chris had near as many, so that's damn near half your passing targets per game just with those two guys. Palmer, White, and Otton averaged about 4 targets per game apiece, rounding them out to 12.

Assuming we have similar useage this season, that's 30 of our 34 pass attempts per game with just those five guys, the other four went to miscellaneous players.

I say all that to ask the following questions. Firstly, if we add a theoretical tight end or receiver, whose targets and balls is he taking? Secondly, would shifting those targets to a rookie make much of a difference in our end of season record?

I agree with most points you have made except for the major one, which is Otton being a "good young TE". For a guy who commits as many errors as he does as a in-line blocker and on screens, for how stiff he is as an athlete in his ability to separate, for how unimpressive his deep speed is, he is a below average starting TE that has only seen as many opportunities as he has because of him being one of the only receiving TE draft picks since 2018.

If Baker, our OC and our O-line are above average, we don't desperately need an upgrade at TE position and can be okay with Otton for another year. But this absolutely is a better offense with a better athlete like Ben Sinnott getting 50-75% snaps that Otton does even as a rookie. A good example is Texans offense from last season. Dalton Schultz was as important as any of their talented young perimeter receivers last season in making their offense deadly.

To Otton's defense, he is a football player. He is adept at taking advantage of what ever ounce of athleticism he has. OJ Howard was much more an athlete, a projection, that always looked awkward playing football even when he had productive games early in his career. That is why there is a certain type of TE I'd be happy with Bucs drafting and a certain type I'd be scared of. Theo Johnson scares me. Ben Sinnott and Dallin Holker are Otton kind of guys, with Sinnott offering a lot more upside both as a blocker and athlete.

[Sdbucs]

Wow, you probably have ASJ's score.

Unfortunately 2013 is when the NCAA data cuts out

He was a consistent 60s ranked player in the NFL peaking at 76 in 2015 (TE #11) behind Gronk, Eifert, Ertz, Walker, Olson, Graham, Antonio Gates to name a few

Pretty insane year for TEs, 2015

Gronk a consistent 90+ ranked player every season is wild