2022 Offseason Thread

[IronDog]

The word "ever" is the only thing that makes me pause.

He is most def. one of the most talented now.

Exactly, it's almost like people forgot about Bruce Gradkowski.

Crap, that's the name I was trying to come up with. Once he emptied his stomach pre-game it was all good!

[mdb1958]

Nevers was a fullback.

[Snake]

Why did Gruden love mediocre, talent deficient QBs? Because he was one?

[The Outsider]

I'm not prepared to die on this hill. I'm mulling it over.

That's more than fair and understandable. I'm not saying he's the GOAT or most accomplished or best to ever play the position, although he could be all of those things when it's all said and done. I'm saying from a God given talent perspective no QB has been more physically talented than him. The throws, the plays he makes are insane.

Mike Vick was arguably as physically talented or more so. He just had Vick's brain.

[IchabodCrane84]

That's more than fair and understandable. I'm not saying he's the GOAT or most accomplished or best to ever play the position, although he could be all of those things when it's all said and done. I'm saying from a God given talent perspective no QB has been more physically talented than him. The throws, the plays he makes are insane.

Mike Vick was arguably as physically talented or more so. He just had Vick's brain.

Hey now, Vick's brain, along with his arms and legs were his two best weapons.

[_MB_]

That's more than fair and understandable. I'm not saying he's the GOAT or most accomplished or best to ever play the position, although he could be all of those things when it's all said and done. I'm saying from a God given talent perspective no QB has been more physically talented than him. The throws, the plays he makes are insane.

Mike Vick was arguably as physically talented or more so. He just had Vick's brain.

I'd want to consider Randall Cunningham and Steve Young. Young in his prime was pretty goddang gifted.

[mdb1958]

He is good, his team has been good, but he wont be able to play run around sue for ever. Does he take more or less than 28 sacks this year?

This bird soars around all the cars effortlessly but one day he's gonna hit the windshield.

[King Bootz]

Who tf is Sue

[uscbucsfan]

Mike Vick was arguably as physically talented or more so. He just had Vick's brain.

I'd want to consider Randall Cunningham and Steve Young. Young in his prime was pretty goddang gifted.

Steve Young did not have a huge arm. You don't remember Brett Favre making fun of his crow hop and it only went like 50 yards?

Favre and Elway could throw it above 70 yards in the air, but that's really nothing on Mahomes in that video.

Vick is a good choice for pure physical talent, but he didn't have the rest to make him an elite QB.

[mdb1958]

Who tf is Sue

Dion

[King Bootz]

Who tf is Sue

Dion

What in the hell are you talking about?!?

[King Bootz]

That's more than fair and understandable. I'm not saying he's the GOAT or most accomplished or best to ever play the position, although he could be all of those things when it's all said and done. I'm saying from a God given talent perspective no QB has been more physically talented than him. The throws, the plays he makes are insane.

Mike Vick was arguably as physically talented or more so. He just had Vick's brain.

Vick's arm was just as good. But he didn't know where it was going. Mahomes is making it look easy with his accuracy and is making these throws without looking at times.

[mdb1958]

Dion

What in the hell are you talking about?!?

His running and buying time.

[Snake]

[Cheb]

Imo, the only other quarterback who comes close to Mahomes in terms of pure passing-arm talent is Dan Marino. Given Mahomes' ability to make plays with his legs (which Dan never had on his best day), I think it's safe to say that Mahomes is the most talented pro quarterback ever. I certainly wouldn't argue with those who said so, anyways.

I mean, what's the flaw in his game exactly? That he gets upset when State Farm gives out the Patrick Price to regular joes like you and me?

[Snake]

Pure arm talent? Like set your feet and throw a missile? There are a lot of those. Plenty of guys who aren’t relevant could chuck the ball hard but stunk at other meaningful stuff.

Vick and Marino stick out as outliers to me. Marino for the lightning quick release. Vick for the easiness of the velocity and tightest spirals. Mahomes best combo of power and ability to do different stuff with his arm. That’s a form of arm talent.

Mayfield and Josh Allen both topped 60 mph at the combine. The only ones to do so that year. Mahomes has been clocked at 62 mph, I think.

[_MB_]

There's a lot more good quarterbacks in the league than 7 years ago, I can tell you that.

[Snake]

There's a lot more good quarterbacks in the league than 7 years ago, I can tell you that.

I was doing one of my longer write ups a few years back on BZ - I think it was BZ - about current NFL qb rankings. And I also had this realization. Average QB play is a hell of a lot better than it used to be and it’s improving every season.

[MJW]

There's a lot more good quarterbacks in the league than 7 years ago, I can tell you that.

I was doing one of my longer write ups a few years back on BZ - I think it was BZ - about current NFL qb rankings. And I also had this realization. Average QB play is a hell of a lot better than it used to be and it’s improving every season.

I can tell you why: Watch the High School kids. The level of play is SO far advanced for young QBs beyond where it was a generation ago. They were still teaching high school quarterbacks how to throw spirals 25 years ago. Now kids are coming into tryouts and being asked to throw 15 yard deep outs. They've had personal QB coaches since they were like eight. Typically the starting QBs for the varsities in my city would have been good enough to compete for snaps at real colleges 25 years ago. It's insane.

[Cheb]

I was doing one of my longer write ups a few years back on BZ - I think it was BZ - about current NFL qb rankings. And I also had this realization. Average QB play is a hell of a lot better than it used to be and it’s improving every season.

I can tell you why: Watch the High School kids. The level of play is SO far advanced for young QBs beyond where it was a generation ago. They were still teaching high school quarterbacks how to throw spirals 25 years ago. Now kids are coming into tryouts and being asked to throw 15 yard deep outs. They've had personal QB coaches since they were like eight. Typically the starting QBs for the varsities in my city would have been good enough to compete for snaps at real colleges 25 years ago. It's insane.

An underrated point. I agree completely.

[MJW]

I can tell you why: Watch the High School kids. The level of play is SO far advanced for young QBs beyond where it was a generation ago. They were still teaching high school quarterbacks how to throw spirals 25 years ago. Now kids are coming into tryouts and being asked to throw 15 yard deep outs. They've had personal QB coaches since they were like eight. Typically the starting QBs for the varsities in my city would have been good enough to compete for snaps at real colleges 25 years ago. It's insane.

An underrated point. I agree completely.

It's seriously nuts, speaking as a QB mom. The kid my son is backing up this year has been working with a former Husker QB since he was in 3rd grade. He probably could have out-thrown all my high school's quarterbacks by 7th grade. It's just not like it used to be. Parents are treating their quarterback son the same way Olympic parents do. By the time a HS QB competes for a varsity job, he can throw the route tree, call sight audibles, set protections, etc.

Compare that to when we were kids, and the QB was the coach's kid, or the kid who did it in Pop Warner, and "preparing off the field" might have meant throwing at the tree in the back yard.

[The Outsider]

Mike Vick was arguably as physically talented or more so. He just had Vick's brain.

Vick's arm was just as good. But he didn't know where it was going. Mahomes is making it look easy with his accuracy and is making these throws without looking at times.

Accuracy is a mental aspect of the game, to be perfectly honest. Vick has as strong an arm as anyone in NFL history, and we've never seen a QB until just recently in Lamar Jackson that has had anywhere near the athleticism that Vick had.

[King Bootz]

Vick's arm was just as good. But he didn't know where it was going. Mahomes is making it look easy with his accuracy and is making these throws without looking at times.

Accuracy is a mental aspect of the game, to be perfectly honest. Vick has as strong an arm as anyone in NFL history, and we've never seen a QB until just recently in Lamar Jackson that has had anywhere near the athleticism that Vick had.

What?? Footwork. Release point. Body torque. Velocity even. All of those physical aspects go into delivering accurate passes. The timing aspect is mental but overall accuracy is very much a physical dynamic.

[The Outsider]

Accuracy is a mental aspect of the game, to be perfectly honest. Vick has as strong an arm as anyone in NFL history, and we've never seen a QB until just recently in Lamar Jackson that has had anywhere near the athleticism that Vick had.

What?? Footwork. Release point. Body torque. Velocity even. All of those physical aspects go into delivering accurate passes. The timing aspect is mental but overall accuracy is very much a physical dynamic.

Yes, but those are all things that are mental in nature. Very few people, if any, naturally have those gifts honed because the majority of those things are not natural movements.

It's like a golf swing. Very few people naturally have a great golf swing. But anyone with the mental ability to study, practice, and apply concepts can practice their swing in to being great.

When you see guys like Vick or Tebow who seem to be incapable of changing their mechanics it's due to a flaw in the mental aspect of their game. Either because they are unable to process and apply new concepts, or because they are unwilling to put in the work. So either they're not all that bright or they're lazy.

[The Outsider]

Basically, anything that can be taught is not an innate physical talent. Speed, arm strength, general strength (to an extent), agility, leaping ability, etc. are what I would consider physical talents. The other stuff is more technical, and technical things are almost always more reliant on intelligence and work ethic than purely physical skill.

[Xandtar]

Nevers was a fullback.

He wouldn't be a fullback in today's game.

He would be a quarterback.

And he had more raw talent at every part of football than Mahomes.

And that was the primary question being posed.

[uscbucsfan]

Nevers was a fullback.

He wouldn't be a fullback in today's game.

He would be a quarterback.

And he had more raw talent at every part of football than Mahomes.

And that was the primary question being posed.

It's such a ridiculous exercise trying to take someone from that era with the argument, "today's strength and conditioning" and say they are better or more athletic than people of today.

It's not an argument that can be made intelligently...he didn't do the things at QB that players do today. He didn't attempt it, because it wasn't part of the game. His longest recorded pass in college or pro was 45 yards. Even ignoring the progression of athletes over the years...just judging of what we have as film, numbers, etc...You could say he MAY have been as good as today's athletes...maybe stretch it to better, but you certainly can't absolutely say either way.

To make a definitive statement that "he had more raw talent at every part of football than Mahomes" warrants nothing more than...lol.

[mdb1958]

Nevers was a fullback.

He wouldn't be a fullback in today's game.

He would be a quarterback.

And he had more raw talent at every part of football than Mahomes.

And that was the primary question being posed.

Listen kid ugghh, err, every kid needs to be proud of great great grandpa...

[mdb1958]

When I went to Canton as a little fella I prolly gazed at his leather helmet.

[King Bootz]

Antoine Winfield Jr! Come on doooown!

[Rocker]

Jeebus.

[King Bootz]

Oh BTW. James earned this playing in 35 total games in 4 seasons.

[Snake]

He has the highest upside when healthy.

[Xandtar]

He wouldn't be a fullback in today's game.

He would be a quarterback.

And he had more raw talent at every part of football than Mahomes.

And that was the primary question being posed.

Listen kid ugghh, err, every kid needs to be proud of great great grandpa...

When you say, "the most talent EVER", great-great-grandpa gets to speak from his wheelchair about what Pop Warner had to say. You open up the floor to every day of the NFL's existence, you bring in Ernie Nevers, the most talented player in the skill positions combined, ever to lace up. Otherwise back off, limit your queries only to those we have personally seen play, and let great-great-grandpa have his due.

[Backside]

Glad we paid Vea instead.