The OFFICIAL 2024 Bucs off-season thread

[uscbucsfan1]

Yes, Mahomes is really good. Yes, we would all love to have one. And yes, he's won the recent ones, great for him.

But lets not pretend that it didn't come to the wire. Like he was so insanely ahead the gap was unmatchable. Greenlaw doesn't tear his achilles going out onto the field maybe it's looking more like the first half for Mahomes, or the first 57 minutes of their first match up, or the full 60 minutes of his match up with us.

And, again, yes we all want our own Mahomes. But this idea that you cannot win a super bowl one of a hundred different ways is nuts. Of course you can. And you bet your bottom dollar everyone who matters, from Licht to Bowles and the staff to Baker, Evans, LVD, and the rest of our leadership, they 100% believe we can go toe to toe with anyone and win the next Super Bowl. And they are right to. Spitting on that is not "being a realist".

Then show me an example of not needing a top QB to win a Superbowl. I'll wait and I guarantee you they'll all come from 5+ years ago if not longer. GO!

Even with the outliers, those teams didn't have consistency of staying elite. An elite QB is a requirement for the last 50 years or so.

[Backside]

Who is arguing against elite QB being most important?


I'm much more interested in your plan to acquire one.

[Buc2]

It's like this every offseason, Backside. Every. Off. Season. Seriously. Go back and look. Signing JPP sucked. Signing Brady sucked. Signing AB sucked. Drafting Wurfs sucked. Drafting AWJ sucked. Every move made sucked. There are tons more examples, but you get the idea.

That's a bit overly dramatic on your part. Especially Wirfs, JPP and AWJ. Those moves were all met with great praise. Brady I was excited but I could understand concern as we had never seen a 43 year old QB play at a high level. AB I could understand as well with all of the recent issues he had, which came to a head just 1 season later.

Perhaps. But I think you got the meaning I was conveying none the less.

[Bootz]

Who is arguing against elite QB being most important?


I'm much more interested in your plan to acquire one.

Doc with his premise that you can somehow win Superbowls consistently a hundred different ways other than having an elite QB.

[Backside]

Who is arguing against elite QB being most important?


I'm much more interested in your plan to acquire one.

Doc with his premise that you can somehow win Superbowls consistently a hundred different ways other than having an elite QB.

And yet even he would not deny that it is the most important position.

[Bootz]

Doc with his premise that you can somehow win Superbowls consistently a hundred different ways other than having an elite QB.

And yet even he would not deny that it is the most important position.

From the horses mouth

It doesn't help you have a whole generation now raised on constant espn "you need elite qb" propaganda.

He calls the premise that you need an elite QB propaganda.

[Backside]

I am not seeing that horse say that QB is not the most important position.

@Doctor will you clarify your stance?

I will plant my flag on this stance wholeheartedly: If you do not think QB is the most important position in the NFL (by a lot) AND that an elite QB is the easiest way to raise the floor and ceiling of your team I vehemently disagree with you, and wonder how you could ever possibly come to any other conclusion.


That also doesn't mean that it is impossible to win a SB without Patrick Mahomes.

[Bootz]

I am not seeing that horse say that QB is not the most important position.

@Doctor will you clarify your stance?

No one ever claimed he said that. Are you not reading what's being discussed? Every. Single. Person involved is talking about ELITE QB PLAY.

[Backside]

I am not seeing that horse say that QB is not the most important position.

@Doctor will you clarify your stance?

No one ever claimed he said that. Are you not reading what's being discussed? Every. Single. Person involved is talking about ELITE QB PLAY.

If he says he wouldn't take an elite QB over some other position or said anything other than it being the quickest way to success if you have one, then let us laugh at him as he deserves.

But I really don't think he is saying that, and it's not hard for me to see the point he is actually trying to make.

[Snake]

Would you trade an elite defense with an average QB for an elite QB with an average defense?

Of course you would. Because piecing together a great defense is easier than finding an elite QB. And one is a single moving part that elevates your team every single year.

[Buc2]

Would you trade an elite defense with an average QB for an elite QB with an average defense?

Of course you would. Because piecing together a great defense is easier than finding an elite QB. And one is a single moving part that elevates your team every single year.

I don't think anyone is denying that. That's what @Backside is saying, imo. However, every team is NOT going to have an elite QB so they have to find other ways to try and win the Chip. That doesn't mean that they can't win the Chip. Just that it will be a bit more difficult.

[Jonny]

Who are some inexpensive free agents you would like Bucs to target in the upcoming days? My list:

Jordan Whitehead
Stephen Gilmore
Arik Armstead or DJ Reader (won't be inexpensive, but would be amazing to have either one)
Clowney
Steven Nelson

[Obsolete]

Would you trade an elite defense with an average QB for an elite QB with an average defense?

Of course you would. Because piecing together a great defense is easier than finding an elite QB. And one is a single moving part that elevates your team every single year.

Not to mention elite qbs play a lot longer now(depending on their style). An elite defense will almost always have some sort of turnover year over year.

[CannonFire]

The two are quite similar. One good thing though, if we do win 4 games this year like we did in 2012, at least we know we'll be looking at a new QB (hopefully a franchise QB for the first time), and not be foolish to think the guy we have is the answer.

Just curious- what would be our record the year that would have you saying that Mayfield should be our QB for the foreseeable future?

This year ONLY? 17-0 I guess... and win the Super Bowl and the MVP. I love when people like you ask this question. Baker Mayfield has be MEH for 6 years... you expect ME to change MY opinion of him IF he has ONE great year. Yet, there you sit with SIX years of evidence of Mayfield being a MEH QB, and you refuse to acknowledge, that he's MEH.

[Miller4Prez64]

[Backside]

Hell yes! Awesome move

[Bootz]

Would you trade an elite defense with an average QB for an elite QB with an average defense?

Of course you would. Because piecing together a great defense is easier than finding an elite QB. And one is a single moving part that elevates your team every single year.

I don't think anyone is denying that. That's what @Backside is saying, imo. However, every team is NOT going to have an elite QB so they have to find other ways to try and win the Chip. That doesn't mean that they can't win the Chip. Just that it will be a bit more difficult.

And this is the part that very very few teams have been able to accomplish.

[Grahamburn]

There it is! Welcome back, JW!!

[Backside]

Feel great about our safety spots now. Corner, much less so.

[Doctor]

Who is arguing against elite QB being most important?


I'm much more interested in your plan to acquire one.

Doc with his premise that you can somehow win Superbowls consistently a hundred different ways other than having an elite QB.

What the hell does win Superbowls consistently even mean? You're talking dynasty? This is what we are going for now, dynasty or bust?
It wasn't that long ago there wasn't going to be another dynasty again and Brady broke people's brains. Now people think the NFL is like the NBA.

[Kona]

Welcome back JW! Dude was our best safety next to AWJr during his tenure, nice re-union.

Still wouldn’t mind seeing them add a safety to give some depth in the draft, but Licht filling those holes so we can go BPA.

[uscbucsfan1]

It wasn't that long ago there wasn't going to be another dynasty again

There's a dynasty or two in every decade in the NFL. There are always going to be dynasties.

Odd thing to say.

The point is that it's much more difficult without a great QB to win, period and almost impossible to sustain greatness without one.

[Grahamburn]

Just curious- what would be our record the year that would have you saying that Mayfield should be our QB for the foreseeable future?

This year ONLY? 17-0 I guess... and win the Super Bowl and the MVP. I love when people like you ask this question. Baker Mayfield has be MEH for 6 years... you expect ME to change MY opinion of him IF he has ONE great year. Yet, there you sit with SIX years of evidence of Mayfield being a MEH QB, and you refuse to acknowledge, that he's MEH.

He’s had 3 good years. One bad year. A year where he could have sat out but played through injury. And a year where he played poorly likely because it was for a clearly dumpster fire organization.

What he’s been through and accomplished last year shouldn’t be glossed over like it was nothing. It wasn’t. Give the man some credit.

What are your thoughts on someone like Joe Burrow?

[Doctor]

I am not seeing that horse say that QB is not the most important position.

@Doctor will you clarify your stance?

I will plant my flag on this stance wholeheartedly: If you do not think QB is the most important position in the NFL (by a lot) AND that an elite QB is the easiest way to raise the floor and ceiling of your team I vehemently disagree with you, and wonder how you could ever possibly come to any other conclusion.


That also doesn't mean that it is impossible to win a SB without Patrick Mahomes.

Of course QB is the most important position. Meat is also the most important ingredient in a burger contest. But miss trying to sell me that you can't win first prize without wagyu.

You can believe QB is the most important position and still take a reasonable approach to it like tactical hedging. I would love to come away from this draft with that "faller" QB in Day 2, groom him for a couple years. I think the QB position is so important that hedging heavy on it like that is a smart play.

This blow it up, tank for the savior nonsense is just bad business. Again, we've looked back on drafts and have seen the wide expanses of years where you just had dogshit at QB. Nada. What would the zealots have us do?

Roll over and let the elites play while we bide our time scratching off our lotto tickets hoping they'll let us play too?
Fuck that. Sign that Brees, that Baker, that Kirk, that Brad Johnson. Put your best foot forward and shoot your best shot. Every year. Without apology.

[Grahamburn]

Nobody is advocating for tanking this year I don’t believe…

[Babeinbucland]

Just curious- what would be our record the year that would have you saying that Mayfield should be our QB for the foreseeable future?

This year ONLY? 17-0 I guess... and win the Super Bowl and the MVP. I love when people like you ask this question. Baker Mayfield has be MEH for 6 years... you expect ME to change MY opinion of him IF he has ONE great year. Yet, there you sit with SIX years of evidence of Mayfield being a MEH QB, and you refuse to acknowledge, that he's MEH.

Just wanted you to admit that there is nothing he can do that you will take as a positive since your bar is perfection. You clearly don’t understand context, explanations or reasoning. And think you know better than the professionals. I bid you good day sir.

[Babeinbucland]

Just curious- what would be our record the year that would have you saying that Mayfield should be our QB for the foreseeable future?

The grass isn't always greener, but human beings just seem to long for what's behind door #2. Probably why the divorce rate is up around 50%. Not surprisingly though the divorce rate for second marriages is even higher. So, be careful what you wish for.

These fools accept only perfection from others and excuse mediocrity from themselves. It is also clear they prefer to remain in a victim mentality - after all - when victimhood is your agenda - empowerments the enemy.

[Doctor]

It wasn't that long ago there wasn't going to be another dynasty again

There's a dynasty or two in every decade in the NFL. There are always going to be dynasties.

Odd thing to say.

The point is that it's much more difficult without a great QB to win, period and almost impossible to sustain greatness without one.

Did you miss the 90s? You know how they hyped up WWI (then The Great War) as the war to end all wars? That was the fall of the Cowboys dynasty. For ten years you heard that parity had won out and repeating was just too damn hard in the modern NFL.

Then the Greatest of All Time appeared, an airbender named Tom.

[BucsNBills]

Nobody is advocating for tanking this year I don’t believe…

Yeah, fuck tanking. If that's what we wanted to do, we should've done it this year. From what I've heard, next years QB class is dogshit so no point in even trying to tank this year.

More importantly though, this team can WIN NOW.

[Doctor]

Though older folks would actually recognize Elway as the original breaker of parity, with his last breath at ages 37 and 38 years old. Though pretty much immediately afterwards the act was dismissed as an echo from a relic past and no one calls them a dynasty.

[uscbucsfan1]

There's a dynasty or two in every decade in the NFL. There are always going to be dynasties.

Odd thing to say.

The point is that it's much more difficult without a great QB to win, period and almost impossible to sustain greatness without one.

Did you miss the 90s? You know how they hyped up WWI (then The Great War) as the war to end all wars? That was the fall of the Cowboys dynasty. For ten years you heard that parity had won out and repeating was just too damn hard in the modern NFL.

Then the Greatest of All Time appeared, an airbender named Tom.

There were the Broncos with 3 straight AFC title games and 2 Super Bowls the year after the Cowboys Dynasty ended.

That's just sports talk for you. People said that in the NBA as well after the Bulls...then the Lakers showed up.

There are always dynasties.

[CannonFire]

This year ONLY? 17-0 I guess... and win the Super Bowl and the MVP. I love when people like you ask this question. Baker Mayfield has be MEH for 6 years... you expect ME to change MY opinion of him IF he has ONE great year. Yet, there you sit with SIX years of evidence of Mayfield being a MEH QB, and you refuse to acknowledge, that he's MEH.

He’s had 3 good years. One bad year. A year where he could have sat out but played through injury. And a year where he played poorly likely because it was for a clearly dumpster fire organization.

What he’s been through and accomplished last year shouldn’t be glossed over like it was nothing. It wasn’t. Give the man some credit.

What are your thoughts on someone like Joe Burrow?

"He's had 3 good years." Look at you. Ever the apologist. He's never been better than average. I'm not counting the hurt year against him. He was straight trash, but I just say he was "meh".

Among active QB's, he's...
+ 23rd in passer rating
+ 19th in yards per game
+ 18th in yards per attempt
+ 28th in comp%
+ 15th in TD%
+ 27th in INT%

All people like you ever do is point out to counting numbers which are solely based on volume. It's amazing that this is festering into this thread from the Baker thread. I posted in there 7 different rates where Mayfield finished below 15th in 6 of those categories. If you take all of those percentages and simply plug is the number of pass attempts that Mayfield threw, the counting numbers are virtually identical to what Mayfield produced. Seriously, what more do you want? You can pick out ANY year of his career, even the one he was terrible in, and get similar results. He is literally the definition of "MEH". I have NO problem at all with MEH, as long as it's temporary. Freaking Gardner Minshew got $12.5M a year for 2 years... for doing almost the exact same thing that Mayfield did last year, and we're giving Mayfield double that. They want Mayfield back? Fine, the deal should've been what I said in the Mayfield thread... 3 years for $45M, which is slightly more (AAV), than what Minshew got, because he was slightly better. Don't pizz away money on a guy like that, use it on players who are more impactful. Now, the one thing I am happy about concerning Mayfield contract, is that we can walk away from him in 12 months at the cost of only $19M. That's not terrible. It's not good, but it clearly could've been worse.

I am giving him credit. I'm giving him proper credit. He was "meh" last year. I didn't say he sucked. I didn't say he was terrible. If there's anyone not giving him proper credit, it's the people giving him too much credit.

Joe Burrow, when healthy, is great. I mean, he took a team with the 17th ranked defense and 28th ranked offensive line to a Super Bowl. In that year, he led the NFL in times sacked. You know where else he led the NFL? Comp%, Y/A, and AY/A. He then went 12-4 the following year and lost in the AFCCG... yeah, that's pretty awesome. Because of Joe Burrow, I'm willing to bet that everyone in the business and fans like us, will expect the Bengals to win 12 games or more. I'd going to go out on a limb and say that Vegas' win total for them will be 10.5 (they're usually conservative). NO ONE, other than blind homers, will have the Bucs winning 9 games and Vegas will probably have them at 7.5.

[CannonFire]

This year ONLY? 17-0 I guess... and win the Super Bowl and the MVP. I love when people like you ask this question. Baker Mayfield has be MEH for 6 years... you expect ME to change MY opinion of him IF he has ONE great year. Yet, there you sit with SIX years of evidence of Mayfield being a MEH QB, and you refuse to acknowledge, that he's MEH.

Just wanted you to admit that there is nothing he can do that you will take as a positive since your bar is perfection. You clearly don’t understand context, explanations or reasoning. And think you know better than the professionals. I bid you good day sir.

What do you mean nothing? I said if he goes 17-0, win a Super Bowl and an MVP, I'd change my mind. Is that unlikely? Sure, but it's also equally unlikely that he's better than "Meh". And as I said, it's entertaining that I have to change my opinion when you don't have to change yours.

[GreatTimes]

Bakers QBR Ranking During his best season as a NFL QB:
https://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr

[Bootz]

Chase Mclaughlin's deal is a 1 year/$5mil deal with 2 option years. No signing bonus, no void years. A $3.5mil roster bonus, $1.5mil base salary and $5mil cap hit. If we cut him next offseason it leads 0 in dead money.

Greg Gaines deal is 1 year, $3.5mil. No void years either.


Licht is learning he needs to use void years more judiciously.