The new Dungy / Gruden debate

[Kress]

So B.A. goes into the Ring of Honor for creating a complete culture change for this organization and doing what he said he would do. But did he? Or was it the singular act of signing Brady (which was only nominally him), and the Brady effect that came with it?

Who created it?

Also take into account BA's diversity initiatives, proactive building up of coaches, etc.... He did a lot in the grand scheme of things, granted, but.... What say you? Who baked the cake? Guys who joined were the frosting, but who baked it?

[Buc2]

So B.A. goes into the Ring of Honor for creating a complete culture change for this organization and doing what he said he would do. But did he? Or was it the singular act of signing Brady (which was only nominally him), and the Brady effect that came with it?

Who created it?

Also take into account BA's diversity initiatives, proactive building up of coaches, etc.... He did a lot in the grand scheme of things, granted, but.... What say you? Who baked the cake? Guys who joined were the frosting, but who baked it?

Personally, I think Licht baked it. Without his hires and player contract management, drafts, etc., none of it would have happened. But, considering Arians was the draw for Brady (or so Brady has said), I'd give a nod to allow BA in the RoH. Why not?

[Redrum]

Without Licht you wouldn't have the WRs or Arians to draw Brady here.

[Cheb]

So B.A. goes into the Ring of Honor for creating a complete culture change for this organization and doing what he said he would do. But did he? Or was it the singular act of signing Brady (which was only nominally him), and the Brady effect that came with it?

Who created it?

Also take into account BA's diversity initiatives, proactive building up of coaches, etc.... He did a lot in the grand scheme of things, granted, but.... What say you? Who baked the cake? Guys who joined were the frosting, but who baked it?

Personally, I think Licht baked it. Without his hires and player contract management, drafts, etc., none of it would have happened. But, considering Arians was the draw for Brady (or so Brady has said), I'd give a nod to allow BA in the RoH. Why not?

Seconded.

Licht had drafted every Buc since Mike Evans. That core of draftees attracted Brady, who brought about the bumper crop of free agents who in turn helped bring about the best two year stretch in franchise history.

[Miller4Prez64]

Brady is obviously the reason things went so well and we are having this discussion, but there may be no Brady without Arians. He deserves his share of credit and deserves his spot in the ring of honor. As does Brady himself.

[Doctor]

Wait, so who is Gruden in this metaphor, Brady, Bruce, or Bowles?

The Gruden/Dungy thing was always overblown by Dungy lovers who instantly had it out for Gruden. That Superbowl roster had massive turnover. Gruden went out and got KMac, JJ, Pittman, even freaking Dilger and Tom Tupa. And even if you want to talk about the HoFers on defense, most were actually drafted under Wyche. Though giving credit where it's due totally groomed by Dungy.

The 2002 Bucs were a very different team, which is a good thing, it's why we won. As much as I love Dungy, in my heart of hearts, I don't believe we win it all with him.


As for this squad, it was built by Licht and Arians. I agree with others, JL deserves the bulk of the credit overall (you guys may have noticed I'm a bit of a JL fan), he's the one that pulled Arians out of retirement. He is one of the best at listening to his coaches and getting them top talent to execute the coach's vision. Together they built a fantastic roster, one good enough to attract the GOAT.

Now, does this squad win without Brady? I think that's a stupidly insincere question given you can't really win without a QB in this league. Do we win with Winston? Rivers? Teddy B? Some guy we traded up to draft? Maybe Watson this year? Who knows. The only thing we know is the obvious, a great QB is key and yes, Tom Brady is the Greatest QB of All Time.

But if you think Tom is walking into Tampa and winning a ring with back to back elite offenses with Dom and Lovie here, oh boy...