Flores suing the NFL

[nybf]

Why do rich people go broke?

Because they create “foundations” aka money pits and pay dummies like her to do…something.

You sure are pulling out all the stops to try and make everyone but the league look bad, huh?

[Primeminister]

Why do rich people go broke?

Because they create “foundations” aka money pits and pay dummies like her to do…something.

You sure are pulling out all the stops to try and make everyone but the league look bad, huh?

You have to admit it’s kind of impressive.

[Snake]

Of course the league is fucked up. Everyone is getting rich on CTE bloodmoney. Billionaires are fucked up as a general rule. The Rooney rule has good intentions. But it’s just another way of trying to overcome implicit bias and has obvious flaws.

I don’t have a ton of sympathy for Flores regardless. He became wealthy by the same system. He’s continued to receive interview opportunities. He can be butt hurt about the team having preferences and word getting around the league about that, but he’s still getting interviewed. It’s on him to change that preference. Not the team to miraculously not form preferences as they do the interview process. Belichick has deep roots in the Giants organization still. Some equipment manager could’ve heard something and sent him a text. It’s really hard to say how he became privy to the Daboll information. If the fear is Rooney candidates being token, maybe they should be required to interview those people first. If that’s the case, why aren’t we just mandating that teams hire minority coaches, because we’re one step away from that at that point.

The being paid to tank thing is a non-story, unless he has evidence. And even with evidence, it’s mostly problematic because of the gambling implications and the bad optics of a team trying to suck. Even though we all know in a cap locked pro sport, being bad is usually a required bus stop before being good. And the treadmill mediocre teams are where you don’t want to be. The owner stands to make more money by making his team good long-term and increasing the value of his franchise than unscrupulous gambling tactics for 16 games.

Every year there are some teams who clearly do not plan on competing at the highest levels. it seems to be working for the league because it puts them in positions to get good quarterbacks on rookie deals and turn the ship around.

[TDTB12]

Flores was part of an elite group. The tweet I saw said there's been 511 coaches hired in the NFLs history dating 102 years. 25 have been minorities. That's less than 5%.

When you think about that, what did he have to lose exactly? Historically speaking the odds of him getting another head coach job were extremely unlikely anyway. Why not bring more light onto the ugly nature of the system that is in place?

[Digital_Damage]

I'm a big numbers guys... the one thing that I just roll my eyes at is the same tired stat of "70% of players are black but only 5% of coaches are".

For one thing... they are not the same jobs. You can't interchange players and coaches, so the correlation is stupid in my opinion. That is like saying, 70% of pilots are black, but only 5% of air traffic controllers are black. Even better is the comparison to owners... when was the last time your heard that compared that way in any other industry?

With that said, I would estimate that blacks are underrepresented by 5%. Hispanics are VERY underrepresented.

[TDTB12]

There's no rational way to explain 25 out of 511. Coaching and playing aren't the same job, this is true. But what is the message here when less than 5% of minor are represented in this profession?

Looking at those odds, I don't think there's anyway you can argue against what Flores is doing here. He likely has a better chance at getting some kind or favorable outcome than he did at getting a head coaching gig any time soon.

[Snake]

And the lack of female head coaches?

[nybf]

And the lack of female head coaches?

Equal to the number of players.

Seriously, sit this thread out.

[13F11B]

I'm a big numbers guys... the one thing that I just roll my eyes at is the same tired stat of "70% of players are black but only 5% of coaches are".

First, the 70% number is an overstatement. As of 2020 the percentage was 57.5% [source]

Second, I always think it is interesting when numbers are cherry-picked with such obvious bias. No one asks why 70% of the players are from a group that only makes up 12.2% of the population. Why is no one asking why there is such an imbalance in the distribution of players?

There's no rational way to explain 25 out of 511. Coaching and playing aren't the same job, this is true. But what is the message here when less than 5% of minor are represented in this profession?

Could it be the same message when we look at the number of why a group that represents 60.1% of the population only makes up 24.9% of the players?

This next point reinforces your point about coaching and playing are different. It is my understanding, from an article I read, is that only 11 of the head coaches in the league were NFL players.

At the same time, in this case, there does appear to be some serious issues raised but the numbers they throw out really have nothing to do with it.

[BJJ34]

And the lack of female head coaches?

Where’s Jeff Garcia when you need him.

[Snake]

And the lack of female head coaches?

Equal to the number of players.

Seriously, sit this thread out.

Why does it have to be reflective of the players?

GM’s? owners?

[Snake]

I'm a big numbers guys... the one thing that I just roll my eyes at is the same tired stat of "70% of players are black but only 5% of coaches are".

First, the 70% number is an overstatement. As of 2020 the percentage was 57.5% [source]

Second, I always think it is interesting when numbers are cherry-picked with such obvious bias. No one asks why 70% of the players are from a group that only makes up 12.2% of the population. Why is no one asking why there is such an imbalance in the distribution of players?

There's no rational way to explain 25 out of 511. Coaching and playing aren't the same job, this is true. But what is the message here when less than 5% of minor are represented in this profession?

Could it be the same message when we look at the number of why a group that represents 60.1% of the population only makes up 24.9% of the players?

People generally don’t bring this up because it takes a conversation to an uncomfortable place where people can’t be honest or say their opinions without having their lives ruined.

The SJWs control the narrative. As illogical as they are.

[Dread]

Flores was part of an elite group. The tweet I saw said there's been 511 coaches hired in the NFLs history dating 102 years. 25 have been minorities. That's less than 5%.

When you think about that, what did he have to lose exactly? Historically speaking the odds of him getting another head coach job were extremely unlikely anyway. Why not bring more light onto the ugly nature of the system that is in place?

I disagree that Flores was "extremely unlikely" to get a head coaching job somewhere. Look at how many openings there still available in this offseason cycle.

2-3 of recently hired GM's have been black.

I personally don't think his lawsuit will amount to much. Maybe the NFL pays him off to avoid discovery that would potentially ignite other controversies. But imo the lawsuit was mostly made in protest to shed light on what Flores described as "systemic racism" when it comes to NFL hirings.

This may not be true of Flores specifically, but many in the 'anti-racism' cult of woke ideology define "systemic racism" as any system that produces outcomes that aren't equal. Anti-racism thought leaders have repeatedly looked at outcomes and if those outcomes aren't what they feel is justified then they call that system racist.

Race/diversity quotas is the only logical solution if you have an anti-racism perspective.

I personally think that is a backwards way to look at any problem and conveniently ignores any and all factors for why outcomes aren't equal based on diversity metrics. And since those factors are ignored, they never get addressed and we just call it racist forever.

Flores didn't get the Giants job and might have overreacted. The Giants shouldn't be forced to hire Flores. I think it's a shame Flores feels he has to smear the Giants and the Broncos as racist.

Brian Daboll was very likely the preferred candidate for the Giants based them just hiring the Bills Asst GM (where Daboll was the OC) and the Giants Owner making the statement a few weeks ago he wants to better support Danny Dimes. So hiring an offensive coach that just developed Josh Allen into a perennial MVP seems to align much better than a defensive guru like Flores.

[TDTB12]

I'm a big numbers guys... the one thing that I just roll my eyes at is the same tired stat of "70% of players are black but only 5% of coaches are".

First, the 70% number is an overstatement. As of 2020 the percentage was 57.5% [source]

Second, I always think it is interesting when numbers are cherry-picked with such obvious bias. No one asks why 70% of the players are from a group that only makes up 12.2% of the population. Why is no one asking why there is such an imbalance in the distribution of players?

There's no rational way to explain 25 out of 511. Coaching and playing aren't the same job, this is true. But what is the message here when less than 5% of minor are represented in this profession?

Could it be the same message when we look at the number of why a group that represents 60.1% of the population only makes up 24.9% of the players?

This next point reinforces your point about coaching and playing are different. It is my understanding, from an article I read, is that only 11 of the head coaches in the league were NFL players.

At the same time, in this case, there does appear to be some serious issues raised but the numbers they throw out really have nothing to do with it.

Why should teenagers, toddlers, elderly people, or women be counted in NFL demographics?

Looking at this countries makeup from the standpoint of 331 million people is a very misleading argument. The number of people eligible for the NFL would be less than 3/4 of that number.

I don't really know what point you felt you were making here other than to circumvent the basis of my question. What message is sent? The league said equality is an issue they spend a majority of their time on. So why should someone like Flores rely on a less than 5% chance at getting a job as opposed to going after the institutions?

[Snake]

It’s really upsetting that you’re assuming the gender of every single NFL player. For shame.

[13F11B]

Why should teenagers, toddlers, elderly people, or women be counted in NFL demographics?

Looking at this countries makeup from the standpoint of 331 million people is a very misleading argument. The number of people eligible for the NFL would be less than 3/4 of that number.

I don't really know what point you felt you were making here other than to circumvent the basis of my question. What message is sent? The league said equality is an issue they spend a majority of their time on. So why should someone like Flores rely on a less than 5% chance at getting a job as opposed to going after the institutions?

Where are you getting your 5% number? At the start of the 2021 season, there were five minority coaches. (15%). Three of those were African American (9%). The 2022 season has not started yet and there are still five job openings.

The real gist of my post was to express that there are real issues that Flores is trying to raise but none of the numbers were supportive of those claims. Stretching the truth by claiming 70% when it is 57.5% or claiming 5% when not all the jobs are filled doesn't help the argument.

[Dread]

The league said equality is an issue they spend a majority of their time on. So why should someone like Flores rely on a less than 5% chance at getting a job as opposed to going after the institutions?

The NFL is literally giving away draft picks on day 2 (3rd rounders) for teams to hire minorities.

Should NFL franchises be permitted the autonomy to hire the candidates they feel are the best fit for their franchise?

[Dread]

Where are you getting your 5% number?

He's driving a narrative so he went back to the start of the NFL however many decades ago. Perhaps b/c he feels things are the same in 2022 as they were in 1960 when it comes to race hirings in the NFL.

[Pirate Life]

What percentage of coaches are former NFL players?

[Doctor]

As a data analyst I too hate the "70% of the league" talking point, it's disingenuous.

For starters, most coaches aren't great players. They are failed players. Players who then turn to coaching. There's a reason Mike Vrabel is in his 40s and Zac Taylor is a 30s.

Coaching, as every part of life, is ripe with nepotism. People act like all these fun pregame stories of "McVay's grandfather, John, hired Gruden's father, Jim, as an assistant coach back in 1969...." are just fun coincidences... like come on.

The NFL didn't coin "it's not what you know, it's who you know", but they aren't exempt from it either. Nor the charade of being a "meritocracy".

[Digital_Damage]

First, the 70% number is an overstatement. As of 2020 the percentage was 57.5% [source]

Second, I always think it is interesting when numbers are cherry-picked with such obvious bias. No one asks why 70% of the players are from a group that only makes up 12.2% of the population. Why is no one asking why there is such an imbalance in the distribution of players?



Could it be the same message when we look at the number of why a group that represents 60.1% of the population only makes up 24.9% of the players?

This next point reinforces your point about coaching and playing are different. It is my understanding, from an article I read, is that only 11 of the head coaches in the league were NFL players.

At the same time, in this case, there does appear to be some serious issues raised but the numbers they throw out really have nothing to do with it.

Why should teenagers, toddlers, elderly people, or women be counted in NFL demographics?

Looking at this countries makeup from the standpoint of 331 million people is a very misleading argument. The number of people eligible for the NFL would be less than 3/4 of that number.

I don't really know what point you felt you were making here other than to circumvent the basis of my question. What message is sent? The league said equality is an issue they spend a majority of their time on. So why should someone like Flores rely on a less than 5% chance at getting a job as opposed to going after the institutions?

Because you have to use census data to determine the potential work force. I get it if you want to look at even more specific census information, you can. One thing you will discover... the birth rate for Blacks has declined compared to other ethnicities.

I believe you have to look at the available work force to determine if there really is an issue or it is fabricated.

Like I said I think they are underrepresented, but not as much as people are making it out to be.

Hispanics and Asians are the real demographic not getting a fair shot and that is not just with the NFL. That is across the board, just look at the universities.

[Digital_Damage]

As a data analyst I too hate the "70% of the league" talking point, it's disingenuous.

For starters, most coaches aren't great players. They are failed players. Players who then turn to coaching. There's a reason Mike Vrabel is in his 40s and Zac Taylor is a 30s.

Coaching, as every part of life, is ripe with nepotism. People act like all these fun pregame stories of "McVay's grandfather, John, hired Gruden's father, Jim, as an assistant coach back in 1969...." are just fun coincidences... like come on.

The NFL didn't coin "it's not what you know, it's who you know", but they aren't exempt from it either. Nor the charade of being a "meritocracy".

Amazing point... it is always who you know, and in many cases who are your parents.

I mean, just look at the coverage around Labron's son...

[13F11B]

Flores was part of an elite group. The tweet I saw said there's been 511 coaches hired in the NFLs history dating 102 years. 25 have been minorities. That's less than 5%.

The information I found indicates that there have been 30 minority coaches in the NFL. 22 of those coaches have been since 2003. Given the huge increase since 2003 would you argue that the Rooney Rule is working?

Again, focusing on the facts of the specific case is more important than throwing numbers (inaccurate) at the wall in the hopes that they stick.

[Tnbandwagoner]

As a data analyst I too hate the "70% of the league" talking point, it's disingenuous.

For starters, most coaches aren't great players. They are failed players. Players who then turn to coaching. There's a reason Mike Vrabel is in his 40s and Zac Taylor is a 30s.

Coaching, as every part of life, is ripe with nepotism. People act like all these fun pregame stories of "McVay's grandfather, John, hired Gruden's father, Jim, as an assistant coach back in 1969...." are just fun coincidences... like come on.

The NFL didn't coin "it's not what you know, it's who you know", but they aren't exempt from it either. Nor the charade of being a "meritocracy".

Most of your post above is sound, particularly the part about nepotism. The part about Vrabel being a failed player, unfortunately, is not; that's so careless in its inaccuracy that it's astounding. He was an All-Pro linebacker for the Patriots; he won three Super Bowls with them. He was also an All-American at Ohio State. He's no Belichick when it comes to coaching, but he was a very good linebacker for several years.

[TDTB12]

Flores was part of an elite group. The tweet I saw said there's been 511 coaches hired in the NFLs history dating 102 years. 25 have been minorities. That's less than 5%.

The information I found indicates that there have been 30 minority coaches in the NFL. 22 of those coaches have been since 2003. Given the huge increase since 2003 would you argue that the Rooney Rule is working?

Again, focusing on the facts of the specific case is more important than throwing numbers (inaccurate) at the wall in the hopes that they stick.

Working in what regard? Even at those odds, if you want the cutoff to be 2003, there's been 97 coaches hired overall. 22% of them minority. Still means Flores would be 3 times less likely to get a head coaching job than say Kevin O'Connell or Dan Quinn. Where is the equality in that?

A quick skim of this thread shows many don't feel the rule is working. Yourself included. This isn't an issue you can straddle the fence on in my opinion.

[Snake]

Seems to be getting closer to population proportionality. Isn’t that “accurate” and fair?

[Doctor]

As a data analyst I too hate the "70% of the league" talking point, it's disingenuous.

For starters, most coaches aren't great players. They are failed players. Players who then turn to coaching. There's a reason Mike Vrabel is in his 40s and Zac Taylor is a 30s.

Coaching, as every part of life, is ripe with nepotism. People act like all these fun pregame stories of "McVay's grandfather, John, hired Gruden's father, Jim, as an assistant coach back in 1969...." are just fun coincidences... like come on.

The NFL didn't coin "it's not what you know, it's who you know", but they aren't exempt from it either. Nor the charade of being a "meritocracy".

Most of your post above is sound, particularly the part about nepotism. The part about Vrabel being a failed player, unfortunately, is not; that's so careless in its inaccuracy that it's astounding. He was an All-Pro linebacker for the Patriots; he won three Super Bowls with them. He was also an All-American at Ohio State. He's no Belichick when it comes to coaching, but he was a very good linebacker for several years.

You misunderstood me. I agree with everything you said and that was the point I was trying to make. That people make it seem like there's a direct pipeline from being a great player to being a coach when it's actually not the case at all because failed players like Taylor get to start their coaching careers far earlier than successful players like Vrabel. This is why it's more common for coaches to be failed players rather than successful players. Also why Taylor is far younger HC than Vrabel, who was indeed an incredible player.

[TDTB12]

Seems to be getting closer to population proportionality. Isn’t that “accurate” and fair?

That would depend on the number of candidates. Blindly looking at the numbers wouldn't yield accurate assessments. That's why population proportionality is a very skewed argument and is really nothing more than a statistic.

You're saying that if you have a group of 20 white teenage girls and a group of 20 black mid 40s black men with 4 NFL job openings that 3 of them should be hired from the pool of white teenage girls.

As I said before that circumvents the real topic at hand here and is a very basic, broad way to look at it.

[Snake]

So what constitutes the “pool” of candidates?

[TDTB12]

So what constitutes the “pool” of candidates?

I'm not sure if this is a serious question or not. I think most would understand what constitutes a pool of candidates. Qualified candidates.

All 32 head coaches from last year have graduated high school and have gone to college. All have had prior coaching experience at some level and most have played football at some level as well.

I don't think anyone would even question if a group of teenage girls should or would even be eligible to be in the running for an NFL head coach job but you're being vague here on whether you believe they should or not. So I'm not 100% certain how to approach this but I tried.

[Snake]

everyone in D1 CFB and everyone on NFL coaching staffs? Including the females on the Bucs staff. Got it.

[13F11B]

Working in what regard? Even at those odds, if you want the cutoff to be 2003, there's been 97 coaches hired overall. 22% of them minority. Still means Flores would be 3 times less likely to get a head coaching job than say Kevin O'Connell or Dan Quinn. Where is the equality in that?

A quick skim of this thread shows many don't feel the rule is working. Yourself included. This isn't an issue you can straddle the fence on in my opinion.

Your constant rehashing of the numbers and trying to make a point about equality is truly enlightening. It is a strong example of what I have been trying to point out as well. Hiring should be about finding the most qualified individual regardless of race, religion, etc. Throwing numbers at the wall does not prove that discrimination is happening. In fact, your logic regarding Flores vs. Dan Quinn makes the assumption that race is the ONLY factor in the decision. While the numbers you give might imply that they do not prove that.

The struggle is to prove discrimination. When people throw numbers up they distract from the facts of the case and enable people to argue about the numbers. When people throw up numbers that are clearly wrong and changed to fit their narrative then people become even more unlikely to look at the facts of the case.

[Dread]

The NFL didn't coin "it's not what you know, it's who you know", but they aren't exempt from it either. Nor the charade of being a "meritocracy".

That's called reality. No organization in human history has ever been immune/exempt from it whether it's government, business, sports etc

There is a fine line between nepotism and networking I suppose and those lines get blurred based on the perspective and/or resentment of the individual. Networking is part of life and you better embrace that early or else it will lead to resentment later.

But let's not pretend Flores doesn't have great network in the NFL and was some type of outsider. A big reason he got that Dolphins job was b/c of his network (Belichick)

The NFL is absolutely a meritocracy. That is the greatest thing about sports in general and why humans love to watch athletic competition. That's not say the "best" candidate always gets the job when it comes to NFL hiring or anything else. But the organizations in any industry who don't have the priority of trying to hire the best candidates will always be outperformed by those who do. So it all washes out.

To bring this back the the NFL and it's hiring practices, what solution is there other that mandated diversity quotas that isn't already being done? The league is literally giving away draft picks.

Should we just award the Super Bowl to the team with most minorities on the coaching staff and FO?

[BLT]

I'm a big numbers guys... the one thing that I just roll my eyes at is the same tired stat of "70% of players are black but only 5% of coaches are".

For one thing... they are not the same jobs. You can't interchange players and coaches, so the correlation is stupid in my opinion. That is like saying, 70% of pilots are black, but only 5% of air traffic controllers are black. Even better is the comparison to owners... when was the last time your heard that compared that way in any other industry?

With that said, I would estimate that blacks are underrepresented by 5%. Hispanics are VERY underrepresented.

The DD rule. You must interview 1 black, 1 hispanic, and 1 asian before you can hire waspys.

[Crocaneers]

Elway clapped back on Flores