Payton stepping away - does this affect Brady's decision?

[uscbucsfan]

Um, I had Winston 4th on my list behind Brady, Brees, and Carr.

But I guess for the AnybodyButWinston mob anything short of a firing suqad is "thinking him elite".

You tried to argue that more than half of Winston's ints weren't on him and in year 2 he would be elite. You said if you had a list it would be Brady, Teddy B(terrible choice as well), then Winston.

[uscbucsfan]

Um, I had Winston 4th on my list behind Brady, Brees, and Carr.

But I guess for the AnybodyButWinston mob anything short of a firing suqad is "thinking him elite".

Winston in the correct offense could be elite. I think Brady coming in and doing what he did in year one showed that Winston was not elite under Arians.

His history says otherwise.

Even nerfed Winston in Sean Peyton's offense had 2 or 3 WTF moments a game. I don't think that's coachable with him. The more he's relied on, the more they surface.

[Snake]

“Nerfed” is pretty funny and accurate based on the games I watched this season.

[13F11B]

Winston in the correct offense could be elite. I think Brady coming in and doing what he did in year one showed that Winston was not elite under Arians.

His history says otherwise.

Even nerfed Winston in Sean Peyton's offense had 2 or 3 WTF moments a game. I don't think that's coachable with him. The more he's relied on, the more they surface.

Sorry for the long play con I just pulled.

What I meant by the correct offense was a pickup basketball game, not an NFL football game.

[Doctor]

Who are the starting caliber QBs in the division?

As far as our own, we still have Trask who is as promising an unknown as any other QBOTF in the league, including those that already have some starts under their belts like Fields and Mills and those that don't like Lance. Heck, you could probably throw Tua and Lawrence into that group as well. All these guys are more talent and promise than they are established known commodities.

And all higher on my list than whatever the Saints, Kitties, or Falcons currently have rostered.

Trask is a guy that many thought would be a mid-round pick who has poor mechanics and a weak arm. We basically spent a 3rd rounder on him and no one, outside of fans, has labeled him as QBOTF. There's a slim chance he is, but he's more likely, judging by history, going to be a back-up QB.

There's been nothing shown on tape that we should put faith into the idea that Trask is our next QB...certainly nothing that would sell anyone on the idea that him and BA are the best HC/QB in the conference. For all we know, he's worse than Gabbert, which I'm sure you would sell to others that Gabbert is a great option to start...

"Many people" had a whole lot to say about Lamar Jackson, Drew Brees, Russel Wilson, some guy named Tom Brady.

Just who are these "many people" and how much weight do you give these people's opinion compared to your own? Do you even have your own opinion?

[Snake]

Did we hear anything good about Trask during the season or preseason? A team like the Brady Bucs get scrutinized pretty thoroughly. Figured I would’ve heard something if he was impressing.

[uscbucsfan]

"Many people" had a whole lot to say about Lamar Jackson, Drew Brees, Russel Wilson, some guy named Tom Brady.

Just who are these "many people" and how much weight do you give these people's opinion compared to your own? Do you even have your own opinion?

You do this with every prospect. You say that everyone can be elite with the right atmosphere. It's not reality...some players just don't have it.

I've said my opinion many times in regards to him as a prospect... as have all 32 teams in regards to Trask. He's a 3-4th round type low ceiling prospect.

There's been nothing to indicate that he's our QBOTF. We took him with the 64th pick and he didn't dress this year. I'd be happy if he turned out to be a solid back-up. That's not to say it's impossible he becomes a starter, but the chances/likeliness are extremely slim. Certainly not something we should be counting on or speaking that with him we have the best QB room in the conference. You have to know that's a ridiculous reach.

Wilson, Jackson, and Brees were all much better prospects...but hey let's use Brady's once in a billion scenario and say all QBs are QBOTF, because it happened before...

[Doctor]

Um, I had Winston 4th on my list behind Brady, Brees, and Carr.

But I guess for the AnybodyButWinston mob anything short of a firing suqad is "thinking him elite".

You tried to argue that more than half of Winston's ints weren't on him and in year 2 he would be elite. You said if you had a list it would be Brady, Teddy B(terrible choice as well), then Winston.

1) I didn't, BA did. In an interview. And even then I think you are adding the "more than half" part.
2) There's a pretty clear and established history of QB development under Arians. In fact, I explicitly said that the hope with Brady was that he could get through the learning curve in half the time... you know, given he's the GOAT and all. Which is exactly what happened.

[uscbucsfan]

Did we hear anything good about Trask during the season or preseason? A team like the Brady Bucs get scrutinized pretty thoroughly. Figured I would’ve heard something if he was impressing.

He rarely got reps in practice..."some scout team reps, but mostly watched and absorbed" is what Leftwich said.

To go from that to him being the best QB in the conference next year is just too far and there's no logical argument there outside of "I think the Bucs are great!"

[Doctor]

"Many people" had a whole lot to say about Lamar Jackson, Drew Brees, Russel Wilson, some guy named Tom Brady.

Just who are these "many people" and how much weight do you give these people's opinion compared to your own? Do you even have your own opinion?

You do this with every prospect. You say that everyone can be elite with the right atmosphere. It's not reality...some players just don't have it.

I've said my opinion many times in regards to him as a prospect... as have all 32 teams in regards to Trask. He's a 3-4th round type low ceiling prospect.

There's been nothing to indicate that he's our QBOTF. We took him with the 64th pick and he didn't dress this year. I'd be happy if he turned out to be a solid back-up. That's not to say it's impossible he becomes a starter, but the chances/likeliness are extremely slim. Certainly not something we should be counting on or speaking that with him we have the best QB room in the conference. You have to know that's a ridiculous reach.

Wilson, Jackson, and Brees were all much better prospects...but hey let's use Brady's once in a billion scenario and say all QBs are QBOTF, because it happened before...

That's a whole lot of words to not answer either question.

[uscbucsfan]

1) I didn't, BA did. In an interview. And even then I think you are adding the "more than half" part.

You absolutely did. You agree with everything our coaching staff says. The entire board shit on BA after that interview and you were the lone defender...just like the last play against LA. Hence the title bizzaro Lugz.

[CantonJester]

Payton stepped away. He's not still getting paid.

As long as he's away he's not. But when he comes back he will be, that's how teams retain rights. You can't retain rights and not pay the person.

This isn't true at all. If Payton is signed through 2024 but he walks away from coaching, the team will no longer have to pay him, but they will still retain his rights.

[uscbucsfan]

You do this with every prospect. You say that everyone can be elite with the right atmosphere. It's not reality...some players just don't have it.

I've said my opinion many times in regards to him as a prospect... as have all 32 teams in regards to Trask. He's a 3-4th round type low ceiling prospect.

There's been nothing to indicate that he's our QBOTF. We took him with the 64th pick and he didn't dress this year. I'd be happy if he turned out to be a solid back-up. That's not to say it's impossible he becomes a starter, but the chances/likeliness are extremely slim. Certainly not something we should be counting on or speaking that with him we have the best QB room in the conference. You have to know that's a ridiculous reach.

Wilson, Jackson, and Brees were all much better prospects...but hey let's use Brady's once in a billion scenario and say all QBs are QBOTF, because it happened before...

That's a whole lot of words to not answer either question.

This feels like a check in the dark response...sounds like you didn't read it at all.

[Doctor]

As long as he's away he's not. But when he comes back he will be, that's how teams retain rights. You can't retain rights and not pay the person.

This isn't true at all. If Payton is signed through 2024 but he walks away from coaching, the team will no longer have to pay him, but they will still retain his rights.

I didn't think I needed to be this explicit but... You cannot retain the rights WHEN THE PERSON COMES BACK and not pay the person.

Once Payton steps back into coaching the Saints will retain his right- but they'll have to pay him. Or trade him. Or cut him loose.


EDIT:
Actually I did already explicitly say so

As long as he's away he's not. But when he comes back he will be, that's how teams retain rights. You can't retain rights and not pay the person.

[uscbucsfan]

This isn't true at all. If Payton is signed through 2024 but he walks away from coaching, the team will no longer have to pay him, but they will still retain his rights.

I didn't think I needed to be this explicit but... You cannot retain the rights WHEN THE PERSON COMES BACK and not pay the person.

Once Payton steps back into coaching the Saints will retain his right- but they'll have to pay him. Or trade him. Or cut him loose.

This is correct.

[Doctor]

That's a whole lot of words to not answer either question.

This feels like a check in the dark response...sounds like you didn't read it at all.

I read it. And nowhere did you
1) name any of these "many people"
2) tell me how much weight you give their opinions
3) tell me if you even formed one of your own

If you did, please point it out.

[uscbucsfan]

This feels like a check in the dark response...sounds like you didn't read it at all.

I read it. And nowhere did you
1) name any of these "many people"
2) tell me how much weight you give their opinions
3) tell me if you even formed one of your own

If you did, please point it out.

The entire post was my opinion outside of referencing the 32 NFL teams that agreed with that.

[Dread]

Saints are in cap hell for all the manipulation they've done over the years in order to maintain a great roster capable of making deep playoff runs.

Now they don't have a QB and lack alot of talent on offense other than RB.

Left Tackle Terron Armstead is about to walk in Free Agency as well.

Sean Payton had a great run there, he may take a year off then start somewhere new with a franchise that has a talented young QB and healthy cap situation.

He's a great offensive coach and elite playcaller and those guys will always be in high demand.

[Dread]

I read it. And nowhere did you
1) name any of these "many people"
2) tell me how much weight you give their opinions
3) tell me if you even formed one of your own

If you did, please point it out.

The entire post was my opinion outside of referencing the 32 NFL teams that agreed with that.

What did all 32 teams agree on regarding Trask that you're citing as fact?

[Doctor]

I read it. And nowhere did you
1) name any of these "many people"
2) tell me how much weight you give their opinions
3) tell me if you even formed one of your own

If you did, please point it out.

The entire post was my opinion outside of referencing the 32 NFL teams that agreed with that.

So nothing about who these other people are or how much you weigh their opinions against your own? Got it.

As for "your opinion", it seems to amount to "we haven't seen anything to indicate anything yet".... Sure, I'll agree with that. But that goes both ways, we don't have anything to indicate he is or IS NOT going to be a quality QB.

On the flip side we have plenty of indications from Bradford and Hill that they are not, and from Ryan that he's no longer.
So while we have no indication from Trask, an unknown beats a known dud any day.

Hence:

Even if Brady retires I still think we have the best HC/QB situation. If for nothing else by default.

And that's just from the QB angle. Not even putting our two time Coach of the Year up against the likes of Rhule, Smith, and who knows....

So yeah... if nothing else we're the best scenario by default.

[uscbucsfan]

The entire post was my opinion outside of referencing the 32 NFL teams that agreed with that.

What did all 32 teams agree on regarding Trask that you're citing as fact?

That he had flaws as a prospect. He wouldn't fall to 64 if he were the slam dunk heir to Brady next year.

I'm in no way saying Trask has no chance to be a starting QB, but he was not an elite prospect to me, to scouts, or to NFL teams. He didn't play this year nor did he dress...or even regularly take reps in practice. There's no reason to be confident that he's now to be categorized as a part of the "best QB/HC in the conference"....he's equally likely to not make the team next year than to start.

[Doctor]

The entire post was my opinion outside of referencing the 32 NFL teams that agreed with that.

What did all 32 teams agree on regarding Trask that you're citing as fact?

Some twisted version of "they passed on him in the first so he's clearly trash"

[uscbucsfan]

So nothing about who these other people are or how much you weigh their opinions against your own? Got it.

Draft publications, NFL scouts, NFL GMs are the other people.

By default he's not better than Darnold, Matt Ryan, Taysom Hill...he's not even better than Gabbart be default.

That's the leap you are taking. He has not even been given the chance to develop with reps in practice, if Leftwich is to be believed.

I'm saying it's more likely he's a career back up, but there's a slim chance he becomes a starter...even less that he becomes elite.

[uscbucsfan]

What did all 32 teams agree on regarding Trask that you're citing as fact?

Some twisted version of "they passed on him in the first so he's clearly trash"

Trash is another leap...flawed prospect is more accurate.

[Snake]

If Brady retires and the team decides to go with Trask, I won’t be optimistic but I will be hopeful. I know hope isn’t a strategy but I’m not in the building so it’s all I got.

I hope he overcomes his weak arm and immobility. I hope he overcomes the fact that he does not fit the archetype of young quarterbacks who’ve come out in recent years and dominated.

More than anything, I hope he’s not average. I want domination or complete abject failure. I know what Kirk Cousins gets you in the modern NFL and I’m not interested.

[nybf]

Um, I had Winston 4th on my list behind Brady, Brees, and Carr.

But I guess for the AnybodyButWinston mob anything short of a firing suqad is "thinking him elite".

Winston in the correct offense could be elite. I think Brady coming in and doing what he did in year one showed that Winston was not elite under Arians.

Is this "correct offense" in a league where the defense isn't allowed to touch the ball?

[13F11B]

Winston in the correct offense could be elite. I think Brady coming in and doing what he did in year one showed that Winston was not elite under Arians.

Is this "correct offense" in a league where the defense isn't allowed to touch the ball?

No, that would not work either. I think the offense I was talking about involves a broom and ice.

[Doctor]

I wouldn't say "elite" given I weigh consistency heavily in my evaluation of "elite", but let's not pretend that Winston isn't capable of having great games.

Winston is like a more extreme Eli. But even Eli manage to string together enough non-catastrophic games at the right time to win a couple of rings. And that's what counts. You don't need to All Madden all the time (though it's obviously preferred) you just need to be good enough at the right time. That's how this sport works. FFS we've seen the like of Rex Grossman, Colin Kaepernick, Jimmy G, and Nick Foles reach the Superbowl. The last one won it!

Now neither Winston (nor Eli) would be my 1st, or even 10th, choice of QBs I'd want to attempt a playoff run with in 2019. But in a league that started Drew Lock, Mitch Trubisky, Daniel Jones, Sam Darnold, etc... we could have done a lot worse that year than Winston. Luckily we did better and went with who "many people" thought was too "weak armed".

[CannonFire]

Even if Brady retires I still think we have the best HC/QB situation. If for nothing else by default.

It's funny because it's true.

[Defense5599]

They are currently $5 million over the cap with the 48 players they have signed and have zero draft picks in the first four rounds next year. No first round or fourth round pick the following season.

Yeah, they mortgaged the future to hopefully get a ring. I'm just saying they don't really lose much next season.

The piper will show up soon. I'm saying next year.

[Monero]

If I'm Payton, I take the year off, then next year I do everything in my power to become the next HC for the Buffalo Bills.

[kaimaru]

This isn't true at all. If Payton is signed through 2024 but he walks away from coaching, the team will no longer have to pay him, but they will still retain his rights.

I didn't think I needed to be this explicit but... You cannot retain the rights WHEN THE PERSON COMES BACK and not pay the person.

Once Payton steps back into coaching the Saints will retain his right- but they'll have to pay him. Or trade him. Or cut him loose.

Gronk retired for a year and he got paid that year? Is that why we had to send a draft pick to New England? C'mon. It's the same for the coaches as well. If he was fired it would be true, but by retiring, the team still retains the rights until his contract ends.

But, if you won't take my word for it:

"The Saints technically hold his rights until 2024 if Payton wants to return to coaching. Should another team want to sign him during that time span, they would have to “compensate” NOLA somehow, whether through draft picks or money."

https://whodatdish.com/2022/01/25/saint ... n-contact/

[Doctor]

FFS this isn't that hard.

WHILE they are retired or "stepped away", no you don't pay them. But when they UN-RETIRE (return), then yes, you need to resume paying them.

You can trade for rights while they are retired, when they are about to unretire, after they've unretired, doesn't matter. But when a mf un-retires, whoever is holding those rights now need to re-start paying that person to keep those rights.

[uscbucsfan]

FFS this isn't that hard.

WHILE they are retired or "stepped away", no you don't pay them. But when they UN-RETIRE (return), then yes, you need to resume paying them.

You can trade for rights while they are retired, when they are about to unretire, after they've unretired, doesn't matter. But when a mf un-retires, whoever is holding those rights now need to re-start paying that person to keep those rights.

Right, just like we needed to trade for Gronk...of if Andrew Luck came back, someone would have to trade for him.

NFL contracts are based on accrued seasons, not calendar years.