How do we beat the Rams/Saints prototype team?

[BJJ34]

So the recipe to beat us is out… I expect several teams to mirror their strategy with Brady still here, if he’s gone… well this board becomes a lot more quiet.

But for the sake of argument/discussion…

Who do you go after in the offseason to address the clear deficiencies this team has against this type of team?

[Snake]

Both the Saints and the Rams have superior coaching. Like top 5 coaching.

It’s where I would start. We all know that isn’t changing though.

If Leftwich moves on, he’s likely replaced with an Arians disciple who adheres to the same philosophy of run abandonment and furious pass attack. I mean, it works most of the time with TB12 at the helm. Until you face a damn good team like the ones you mentioned who love facing one dimensional teams.

Once I figure out the coaching/scheme, I figure out the roster.

[Doctor]

Main thing: Be Healthy

People sleep on just how ridiculously healthy we were last year. This year not so much.

Next, both Lattimore and Ramsey match up very well with Evans, which is why we need a Godwin or at the very least a huge Gronk game. We need another weapon out there.

Lastly, run the ball. We were running so well against the Rams and we panicked too early. We should've stuck with pounding the rock early.

[Snake]

I wouldn't expect a commitment to running the ball if Arians has a really good QB. Doesn't seem to be his M.O.

2021 - Buccaneers 31st in rushing attempts.
2020 - Buccaneers 28th in rushing attempts.
2019 - Buccaneers 14th in rushing attempts (Jameis).
2017 - Cardinals 20th in rushing attempts.
2016 - Cardinals 21st in rushing attempts.

[BLT]

Just mirror the strategy of having an elite defense

Easy

[Defense5599]

Main thing: Be Healthy

People sleep on just how ridiculously healthy we were last year. This year not so much.

Next, both Lattimore and Ramsey match up very well with Evans, which is why we need a Godwin or at the very least a huge Gronk game. We need another weapon out there.

Lastly, run the ball. We were running so well against the Rams and we panicked too early. We should've stuck with pounding the rock early.

That's why I've got my eyes on one of Bama's receivers. Mainly Williams. He was a top ten pick before tearing his ACL in the CFP Championshp. He will drop to late in the first round. If the Bucs pick him and re-sign Godwin/Gronk, draft some o-line/TE depth and bring back Lenny and Bell, this offense is rolling next year assuming everyone stays healthy.

[acmillis]

Just mirror the strategy of having an elite defense

Easy

This. There's no secret sauce to beating a team. Pressure any qb in the NFL with elite rushers against injured and/or backup OL, you've found that "secret sauce"

[Doctor]

Our pass rush was sorely lacking vs the Rams. No one could beat their 1 on 1s.

[Snake]

Shaq had 10 sacks but honestly felt like an invisible man to me this season. My perception isn’t reality but I found myself thinking overpaid more than once.

[uscbucsfan]

Shaq had 10 sacks but honestly felt like an invisible man to me this season. My perception isn’t reality but I found myself thinking overpaid more than once.

Shaq was our best and most consistent defender on our front 7 this year...he was better more consistently than Vea.

Just like Donald was exponentially better than Watt this season, but Watt's total sacks will result in a DPOY award. Shaq had a good win rate, pressure rate, etc.

[Snake]

Shaq had 10 sacks but honestly felt like an invisible man to me this season. My perception isn’t reality but I found myself thinking overpaid more than once.

Shaq was our best and most consistent defender on our front 7 this year...he was better more consistently than Vea.

Just like Donald was exponentially better than Watt this season, but Watt's total sacks will result in a DPOY award. Shaq had a good win rate, pressure rate, etc.

Hmm, not surprised that’s the case. I find myself ball watching on defense. If a pass rusher isn’t getting home, I’m probably not seeing it. Thanks for the correction.

[Monero]

Shaq had 10 sacks but honestly felt like an invisible man to me this season. My perception isn’t reality but I found myself thinking overpaid more than once.

Shaq was our best and most consistent defender on our front 7 this year...he was better more consistently than Vea.

Just like Donald was exponentially better than Watt this season, but Watt's total sacks will result in a DPOY award. Shaq had a good win rate, pressure rate, etc.

If we can get an elite dlineman in between Shaq and Vea, our pass rush becomes a problem for the whole league.

[Doctor]

Shaq was stood up all day yesterday

[uscbucsfan]

Shaq was stood up all day yesterday

He was, but he's also injured.

[Backside]

[Dread]

Just mirror the strategy of having an elite defense

Easy

It really is that simple even if that is a boring answer.

The Saints give us problems b/c their defense plays great against us. But they don't do anything fancy, just shut down our running game and their front 4 Dline whip our Oline in pass protection. Their secondary matches up well also. Scheme wise they play mostly 2Man.

The Rams are a different story b/c we can't slow their passing game down b/c we can't pressure their QB without blitzing, which they toast us when we do.

But atleast we score vs the Rams

The Bucs 4 man pass rush was subpar all season. Vea is a stud for an inside guy, Shaq was solid, but we didn't get enough from the other EDGE (JPP/Nelson/Tryon).

Applying pressure with just 4 is something that needs to improve next season.

[Redrum]

Run the ball and get a pass rush with just 4.

[13F11B]

On defense, I think our issue was JPP and Shaq, or scheme. Far too many times Vea would collapse the pocket but the QB was just able to slide left or slide right to avoid the pressure. Like most who just get to see the game on TV it is difficult to follow the pash rush so this is not a 'all 12' point of view breakdown.

[Terry Tate]

People here are talking about offensive weapons and ignoring the fact that it was the rams and saints defenses that really got us. Draft dline. If necessary draft more corners

[Snake]

People here are talking about offensive weapons and ignoring the fact that it was the rams and saints defenses that really got us. Draft dline. If necessary draft more corners

Secondary players drafted by Licht

2021
Wilcox (CB) - 7th round

2020
Winfield (S) - 2nd round

2019
SMB (CB) - 3rd round
Dean (CB) - 3rd round
Edwards (safety) - 3rd round

2018
MJ Stewart (NB/S) - 2nd round
CD3 (CB) - 2nd round
Whitehead (S) - 4th round

2017
Justin Evans (S) - 2nd round

2016
VH3 (CB) - 1st round
R. Smith (CB) - 4th round

2015
None

2014
None

[13F11B]

People here are talking about offensive weapons and ignoring the fact that it was the rams and saints defenses that really got us. Draft dline. If necessary draft more corners

Secondary players drafted by Licht

2021
Wilcox (CB) - 7th round

2020
Winfield (S) - 2nd round

2019
SMB (CB) - 3rd round
Dean (CB) - 3rd round
Edwards (safety) - 3rd round

2018
MJ Stewart (NB/S) - 2nd round
CD3 (CB) - 2nd round
Whitehead (S) - 4th round

2017
Justin Evans (S) - 2nd round

2016
VH3 (CB) - 1st round
R. Smith (CB) - 4th round

2015
None

2014
None

Sadly this shows that Licht has not 'hit' on his choices. The Buccaneers may need someone else to evaluate the DBs.

[Dread]

Secondary players drafted by Licht

2021
Wilcox (CB) - 7th round

2020
Winfield (S) - 2nd round

2019
SMB (CB) - 3rd round
Dean (CB) - 3rd round
Edwards (safety) - 3rd round

2018
MJ Stewart (NB/S) - 2nd round
CD3 (CB) - 2nd round
Whitehead (S) - 4th round

2017
Justin Evans (S) - 2nd round

2016
VH3 (CB) - 1st round
R. Smith (CB) - 4th round

2015
None

2014
None

Sadly this shows that Licht has not 'hit' on his choices. The Buccaneers may need someone else to evaluate the DBs.

That is how you choose to interpret it, from 2014-2017 I'd definitely agree. But since then Licht has seemingly figured it out, I'd point out that our top 6 DBs from a defense we rode to the Championship last season were all drafted and developed by the staff our GM assembled.

The VH3 pick sticks out, but the other CBs draft in the 1st round after VH3 were Eli Apple, Artie Burns, and William Jackson III. All of which are on their 2nd or 3rd team or not even in the NFL anymore.

Other than that the only real miss was MJ Stewart imo and even he has found a role in Cleveland. Dude just didn't have the speed to play CB in the NFL.

Justin Evans looked like a very promising young player before foot injuries ended his career, tough to blame the GM for that since he wasn't injury prone in college.

Ryan Smith was a productive special teamer as a 4th rounder and earned a free agent contract from the Chargers.

[Doctor]

Also keep and mind that you can only pick from what's in front of you.
You don't get to pick the positions that will have talent in a draft or who is there when it's your time to select.

We've actually had a couple of years where we've gotten ridiculously lucky that the top talent left on the board happened to match up well with some of our weaknesses. But that's usually not the case.

[Nobody]

The way you beat 2 Man Under is as follows:

1 - Run the football and run it efficiently. 2 Man Under is light-box so it means you're lacking Safety run support. You have to be willing to run the ball and you have to do it effectively.

2 - Flood one side w/ exchanged releases/rubs and a route to take the top off. Deep Safety isn't in position to help on unders and isn't in position to help support if a Slant/Whip combo wins and you've got someone who can RAC in the flats against a DB trying to catch up after they've lost leverage due to a rub.

3 - Win with Mesh concepts and taking the top off on one side (see Perriman in OT). If you've got speed and you can get a downfield rub off of Crossing Routes from opposite directions and the Safety is out of position to help because they're over top of a vert?...2 Man Under killer.

4 - Win with your TE between the seams and couple that with a route that takes the top off so that deep half Safety can't support your LB. Preferably off play-action on 1st down or 2nd and 6 or less.

5 - Have a running back that dominates 1v1s. Quickest way to take a team out of 2 Man Under is having dominant pass-catching personnel at TE and RB and running the ball effectively. You have Kamara or Faulk or McCaffrey running Angle routes against LBers? Yeah, you aren't playing 2 Man Under against those teams (more likely 1 Man Free w/ Low Hole helping against the RB with inside leverage).


+++++++++++++

Our problem?

* We refuse to do 1.

* Conceptually, we don't have a ton of 2 nor 3 in the playbook and we aren't willing to run what we have nearly enough.

* A fair chunk of the wins with Gronk weren't schemed...they were Brady/Gronk adjustments. This offense just doesn't feature enough TE downfield between the seams off playaction.

* We don't have a dominant Passing Game RB. Fournette put in a solid year in the passing game. But that is his upper limit; solid contributor. There is a giant chasm between being a weapon in the passing game that takes teams out of 2 Man Under and a solid contributor.

[13F11B]

Sadly this shows that Licht has not 'hit' on his choices. The Buccaneers may need someone else to evaluate the DBs.

That is how you choose to interpret it, from 2014-2017 I'd definitely agree. But since then Licht has seemingly figured it out, I'd point out that our top 6 DBs from a defense we rode to the Championship last season were all drafted and developed by the staff our GM assembled.

The VH3 pick sticks out, but the other CBs draft in the 1st round after VH3 were Eli Apple, Artie Burns, and William Jackson III. All of which are on their 2nd or 3rd team or not even in the NFL anymore.

Other than that the only real miss was MJ Stewart imo and even he has found a role in Cleveland. Dude just didn't have the speed to play CB in the NFL.

Justin Evans looked like a very promising young player before foot injuries ended his career, tough to blame the GM for that since he wasn't injury prone in college.

Ryan Smith was a productive special teamer as a 4th rounder and earned a free agent contract from the Chargers.

You have a point there. Perhaps Licht has been OK with his picks and the difference was the change in the coaching staff.

[CannonFire]

So the recipe to beat us is out… I expect several teams to mirror their strategy with Brady still here, if he’s gone… well this board becomes a lot more quiet.

But for the sake of argument/discussion…

Who do you go after in the offseason to address the clear deficiencies this team has against this type of team?

It's not hard with better coaching. We've had a more talented team than both of those two the last two years, but got out coached in 6 of the 7 matchups. We won the last 2 years purely on talent. The offensive and defensive game plans are very vanilla. Yes, the Super Bowl was awesome, but let's not forget that this defense gave up 23 points to Taylor Heinicke. With 4 minutes left in that game, we were only up by 5.

We were tied going into the 4th Q against the Saints in the next round and thanks to noodle arm throwing a weak pick on their side of the field, we finally were able to salt that game away with 5 minutes left in that one. We gave up 26 points to the Packers and let's be honest, they screwed themselves up on that last possession.

I won't be upset when Leftwich, Bowles, and Arians are gone. We won because of Brady. not them.

[Tnbandwagoner]

As I wrote in the team needs thread, I think we need a dominant pass rusher and also a pass-catching back or a top-level tight end. I think our draft picks almost have to come down to best-player-available. We badly need a better pass rush, but if there's not a difference-maker DE or LB available when we make our first pick but there is a difference-maker RB, I think we should take the RB - and vice-versa. If the best player available when we make our first pick is an OT, send Donnie a thank-you note and a box of chocolates and send him on his way. We have needs in several spots, and will have more once people leave, but signing another role-player like we took in the third round in 2020, or worse yet a back-up/project like we took in the second round last year, is not the path to another SB (or to getting Brady back for another year, which should be the focus right now, as I would think it is). If there's a lockdown corner available when we make our first pick, we could do a lot worse than being able to cover Kupp or Hill one-on-one and actually have it work.

I agree that running the ball has to be more of a priority, particularly if Brady comes back. (It should be regardless but it's really not going to make a world of difference if he doesn't because next season will be one to forget in that eventuality regardless of run percentage or anything else.) Maybe he nicely suggests to them that they draft a pass-catching back with one of the first two picks to enhance the probability he suits it up again?

[Cheb]

The best way to beat great teams is running the ball well and pressuring the quarterback. It's no different against the Saints or Rams.

[The Outsider]

Just mirror the strategy of having an elite defense

Easy

It really is that simple even if that is a boring answer.

The Saints give us problems b/c their defense plays great against us. But they don't do anything fancy, just shut down our running game and their front 4 Dline whip our Oline in pass protection. Their secondary matches up well also. Scheme wise they play mostly 2Man.

The Rams are a different story b/c we can't slow their passing game down b/c we can't pressure their QB without blitzing, which they toast us when we do.

But atleast we score vs the Rams

The Bucs 4 man pass rush was subpar all season. Vea is a stud for an inside guy, Shaq was solid, but we didn't get enough from the other EDGE (JPP/Nelson/Tryon).

Applying pressure with just 4 is something that needs to improve next season.

Tryon was pretty good as a rookie who mostly played in a rotational role. I'm excited to see what he can do next season.

[13F11B]

Tryon was pretty good as a rookie who mostly played in a rotational role. I'm excited to see what he can do next season.

I agree. I hope he gets a little stronger in the offseason and comes on strong in year two.

[Doctor]

So the recipe to beat us is out… I expect several teams to mirror their strategy with Brady still here, if he’s gone… well this board becomes a lot more quiet.

But for the sake of argument/discussion…

Who do you go after in the offseason to address the clear deficiencies this team has against this type of team?

I won't be upset when Leftwich, Bowles, and Arians are gone. We won because of Brady. not them.

Brady held Mahomes to 9 points? Amazing. And that NFCCG, oh boy.

I fully expect Tryon to make a huge leap forward next year. It's all set up for that.

[MJW]

It shouldn't be too hard to beat the Saints now. Payton is gone, and they're more over-the-cap this offseason than any team I can remember in the history of the league. They also have a ton of key free agents, and no quarterback.

The Rams? They should take care of themselves also. Two things happen when you deal all your picks for veterans. One, you have to pay those veterans. Two, you can't replenish your roster effectively when you can't pay some of those veterans. The Rams aren't building a dynasty, they're building a kamikaze engine.

[Doctor]

And I'm all for it. I love what the Rams are doing. It only takes one chip to justify it all.

With that said I expect the Rams to have similar issues holding on to players as we will. They aren't perfect end to end, no team is, but they'll stay very talented and competitive next year. As will the 9ers (moreso imo).

[Dread]

It really is that simple even if that is a boring answer.

The Saints give us problems b/c their defense plays great against us. But they don't do anything fancy, just shut down our running game and their front 4 Dline whip our Oline in pass protection. Their secondary matches up well also. Scheme wise they play mostly 2Man.

The Rams are a different story b/c we can't slow their passing game down b/c we can't pressure their QB without blitzing, which they toast us when we do.

But atleast we score vs the Rams

The Bucs 4 man pass rush was subpar all season. Vea is a stud for an inside guy, Shaq was solid, but we didn't get enough from the other EDGE (JPP/Nelson/Tryon).

Applying pressure with just 4 is something that needs to improve next season.

Tryon was pretty good as a rookie who mostly played in a rotational role. I'm excited to see what he can do next season.

Imo he needs to hit the weight room and add some strength, which he's certainly capable of. I ran into him at a local charity function some Bucs were at and he wasn't as big/strong as he looks on TV. Great genetics, but needs to mass up a tad so he can play with power more effectively.

But he's got the athleticism and frame to be a really good EDGE defender. He just needs to develop physically as well as hone his craft.

I think he'll have a much better year in 2022 as the game slows down for him.

[The Outsider]

Tryon was pretty good as a rookie who mostly played in a rotational role. I'm excited to see what he can do next season.

Imo he needs to hit the weight room and add some strength, which he's certainly capable of. I ran into him at a local charity function some Bucs were at and he wasn't as big/strong as he looks on TV. Great genetics, but needs to mass up a tad so he can play with power more effectively.

But he's got the athleticism and frame to be a really good EDGE defender. He just needs to develop physically as well as hone his craft.

I think he'll have a much better year in 2022 as the game slows down for him.

Yeah I agree with all of that. Based on some things he said early on in the season about developing a bigger repertoire of pass rushing moves along with his flashes of brilliance here and there I'm confident that he can take the next step. It helps that he has had great role models during his rookie year.