NFL Head Coach Hot Seat

[uscbucsfan]

Bienemy is also apparently horrible in interviews.

The Texans were basically told to hire him by Watson, interviewed him 2 times and then went to Culley...Multiple teams been reported as to having him as their favorite only to not be hired after an interview. Some say it's because Reid has complete control of that offense and play calling and unlike Nagy, Bienemy just doesn't exude that he has a grasp on how to run things.

It's difficult to use race when multiple teams have hired other black coaches after interviewing him. Something is legitimately wrong with him in the process.

That would be what we call moving the goal posts. It went from coordinating top units to "well he's not the play caller and his interviews don't go well".

If the stars don't align perfectly then it's a no. But that's clearly not the case for everyone.

No goalpost are being moved.

I'm specifically addressing him. There's something wrong there and it's not just the color of his skin.

[King Bootz]

That would be what we call moving the goal posts. It went from coordinating top units to "well he's not the play caller and his interviews don't go well".

If the stars don't align perfectly then it's a no. But that's clearly not the case for everyone.

No goalpost are being moved.

I'm specifically addressing him. There's something wrong there and it's not just the color of his skin.

Goal posts are definitely being moved.

There's so many HCs hired who don't call plays or even coordinate units. The tails of his interviews I'm sure come with receipts. But that goes back to the point I made to Dread. Why even bother bringing him in if you know all of this. Trust me if YOU "know" that he interviews poorly, NFL GMs know it as well. If YOU "know" that his lack of play calling(which isn't true, he does call plays) is the reason teams aren't hiring him, Yet they still bring him in, there is a clear problem.

[uscbucsfan]

No goalpost are being moved.

I'm specifically addressing him. There's something wrong there and it's not just the color of his skin.

Goal posts are definitely being moved.

There's so many HCs hired who don't call plays or even coordinate units. The tails of his interviews I'm sure come with receipts. But that goes back to the point I made to Dread. Why even bother bringing him in if you know all of this. Trust me if YOU "know" that he interviews poorly, NFL GMs know it as well. If YOU "know" that his lack of play calling(which isn't true, he does call plays) is the reason teams aren't hiring him, Yet they still bring him in, there is a clear problem.

No, I'm not participating in the broader discussion, just about Bienemy.

I just read that he doesn't come interviews with a plan, just very generic Rah Rah. Gotleib said that multiple teams said that he couldn't provide details in his plans, but had very broad suggestions on success like, "Just win". Obviously all teams see it differently, but multiple coaches have been hired without ever "calling plays", including 2 former Andy Reid coaches and Flores.

Him not being hired is exclusive to him and it's an odd case. I'm not saying race isn't ever considered with him, but obviously with some of these teams it's not a factor. He's probably had the most interviews of any coach without being hired...or close...some of them going in as the favorite and leaving without a job.

[King Bootz]

Goal posts are definitely being moved.

There's so many HCs hired who don't call plays or even coordinate units. The tails of his interviews I'm sure come with receipts. But that goes back to the point I made to Dread. Why even bother bringing him in if you know all of this. Trust me if YOU "know" that he interviews poorly, NFL GMs know it as well. If YOU "know" that his lack of play calling(which isn't true, he does call plays) is the reason teams aren't hiring him, Yet they still bring him in, there is a clear problem.

No, I'm not participating in the broader discussion, just about Bienemy.

I just read that he doesn't come interviews with a plan, just very generic Rah Rah. Gotleib said that multiple teams said that he couldn't provide details in his plans, but had very broad suggestions on success like, "Just win".

Him not being hired is exclusive to him and it's an odd case. I'm not saying race isn't ever considered with him, but obviously with some of these teams it's not a factor. He's probably had the most interviews of any coach without being hired...or close...some of them going in as the favorite and leaving without a job.

Well which is it? Is it because he doesn't presumably call plays or because he interviews terribly? If it's the former, then why bring him in to begin with when you already have this information? If it's the latter, again why bring him in when you have this information?

It's interesting people can give multiple reasons why someone wasn't hired but can't give one as to why someone who's likely not deserving was.

[BLT]

Yes, everyone acknowledges this.

A coaching position opens up and Leslie Frazier is scheduled for an interview within ten minutes.

Using the model provided earlier, Frazier has coordinated top defensive units while in Buffalo. If all he's deserving of is an interview to check a box, there's a clear problem with the system.

Not necessarily. He had a HC job before and failed at it. Some people are better suited as being the assistant manager.

[BLT]

Yes, everyone acknowledges this.

A coaching position opens up and Leslie Frazier is scheduled for an interview within ten minutes.

It's because they are required to.

When the Raiders were going to hire Gruden, they had to interview a minority candidate first.

Even if Bill Belichick wanted to change jobs and it was obvious that any team would drop everything for him...they'd still have to do a token interview to satisfy the rule.

Thanks capt. obvious

[King Bootz]

Using the model provided earlier, Frazier has coordinated top defensive units while in Buffalo. If all he's deserving of is an interview to check a box, there's a clear problem with the system.

Not necessarily. He had a HC job before and failed at it. Some people are better suited as being the assistant manager.

Adam Gase on line 1.

[uscbucsfan]

No, I'm not participating in the broader discussion, just about Bienemy.

I just read that he doesn't come interviews with a plan, just very generic Rah Rah. Gotleib said that multiple teams said that he couldn't provide details in his plans, but had very broad suggestions on success like, "Just win".

Him not being hired is exclusive to him and it's an odd case. I'm not saying race isn't ever considered with him, but obviously with some of these teams it's not a factor. He's probably had the most interviews of any coach without being hired...or close...some of them going in as the favorite and leaving without a job.

Well which is it? Is it because he doesn't presumably call plays or because he interviews terribly? If it's the former, then why bring him in to begin with when you already have this information? If it's the latter, again why bring him in when you have this information?

It's interesting people can give multiple reasons why someone wasn't hired but can't give one as to why someone who's likely not deserving was.

I'm saying I don't know. I'm just posting what others have reported "No general plan", "too broad"...

It's an oddity. Something is wrong there. The Texans were basically 99% going to hire him. Watson had publicly requested it, insiders said the interview was a formality... and then interviewed him 3 times (which is also rare) only to hire Culley.

Albert Brier said the Dolphins had him at the top of their list and their fans were pissed when a LB coach was hired instead.

Again, this is a different issue going on here.

[Dread]

Perhaps you are more preoccupied with your skin color than others and thus project/assume others must be as well.

NFL Owners want to win and have a respected brand to attract/grow the fanbase and of course make money. But winning is paramount to achieving any of those other goals.

In a league with so much parity where every rule seems to be made with goal of creating more parity if you're making football decisions based on things like things like race you're just limiting the potential success of your franchise.

In addition we're in an era where franchises receive a social currency for diversity and are championed in the media and public when they have success with minority leadership.

Just look at the Bucs. The Glazers were Trump supporters and have donated and hosted fundraisers for Trump. Idiots in the media have called them racist for that. Yet at the same time since that family took over the Bucs have arguably one of the best track records in the NFL when it comes to hiring black head coaches. And now continuing to promote diversity with women in both the coaching ranks and FO with Jackie Davidson working alongside Mike Greenberg as an assistant to the GM.

My point is I don't believe NFL Owners refuse to hire a person they feel would give them the best chance at success based on that candidates skin color. Yes, shitty white coaches still get hired. But that doesn't mean there was racism involved.

Unfortunately the cancerous idea that wherever there are racial disparities (in outcomes) the reason must be racism has grown more popular and crippled any critical thinking into what are always more nuanced/complex issues (like black HC in the NFL). The obvious flaws in that thinking is that it always only goes one direction.

The #1 reason we haven't seen the Rooney rule have the desired outcome is it never created a larger pool of better black candidates. It just artificially promoted their names in the interview process. Most NFL HCs get their job by establishing a track record of being coordinators on top ranked units, especially offense since that is the trend.

So the current incentives of draft picks for coordinators who get plucked for HC jobs should have a more positive effect. I'd argue it already is when you look at the pool of candidates this offseason already when the new rule is only 1 year old.

If you want to change a behavior of a person/organization you just need to change the incentive structure

What exactly are you saying then? That if people simply ignore problem that it'll go away?

The fact that incentives had to be used to inspire change is a continuation of the problem and mirrors an issue in this country from nearly 200 years ago. Getting reparations for losing a black coach is a problem.

Additionally, your idea of how most NFL head coaches get their jobs is misguided and flat out wrong. What top unit did Zac Taylor coordinate? He's never been an NFL coordinator. Dan Campbell? Never been a coordinator.. Goes 3-13-1 his 1st year and is praised.. David Culley wins 1 more game and is fired. What about Joe Judge? Special Teams? Kliff Kingsbury? Losing record as a college HC. Brandon Staley? 1 year as a coordinator. Doug Pederson and Matt Nagy both spent 2 years as Andy Reid's OC and got HC jobs. Eric Bienemy comes in, the offense actually does better, produces a league MVP and Super Bowl win and another trip, yet he's been there 3 years and nothing.

If you really think HCs are hired because they coordinate top offenses, come stay at my Kansas oceanside villa.

I never stated or implied the issue "should be ignored and it will go away". It's pretty ridiculous you even typed that tbh but feel free explain how you came to such an interpretation.

Using incentives to change behaviors is a reality of human nature. I disagree it perpetuates the problem (lack of black HCs in the NFL). If the desired outcome is more black HCs and we're not getting there with false virtue (Rooney rule), hashtags, and shaming then changing the incentive structure is the obvious way to go.

What other solution do you propose? Or are you content with just complaining about the problem so you can call things racist without offering viable solution to fix/address the problem? We could do race quotas, is that fair? America is about 7% black, so rounding up that would mean 3 out of 32 owners would need to be black. But if we're doing race quotas should that mean more wyppo would have to play in the NFL?

Again, all racial disparities don't equate to racism. That's just simple minded CRT nonsense.

Bienemy aside (his past is the reason he hasn't got a HC job), who are the bright young HC candidates you feel deserve a job. Who are the Zac Taylor, Kliff Kingsbury, Matt LaFluer, Brandon Staley types out there who are being overlooked?

The most proven paths to becoming a HC in the NFL are being a successful cordinator and/or be part of/connected to a successful coaching tree (Walsh-Holmgren-Reid, McVay, Dungy, Belichick, etc)

What we need is better candidates along with another successful black HC like a Tony Dungy type who can develop coaches within a system that works and other teams copy as he did with Herm Edwards (who was just a DB coach here before getting a HC job) , Lovie Smith, Mike Tomlin, Marinelli, Joe Barry, etc.

The NFL has started conducting symposiums in the off season designed to develop black coaches, we also have the Pollard alliance of minority coaching internships, the improvements to the Rooney rule.

[uscbucsfan]

I don't think Bienemy's past is the reason. Unless he answers questions about it poorly...Teams wouldn't interview him or have him at the top of their list if that were the case. That's doesn't make sense.

I'm specifically listing teams that have hired black coaches intentionally to remove that as a potential reason and 2 of them, the Dolphins and Texans, had him as their top candidate before the interview only to go a different direction afterward.

[Dread]

I don't think Bienemy's past is the reason. Unless he answers questions about it poorly...Teams wouldn't interview him or have him at the top of their list if that were the case. That's doesn't make sense.

I'm specifically listing teams that have hired black coaches intentionally to remove that as a potential reason and 2 of them, the Dolphins and Texans, had him as their top candidate before the interview only to go a different direction afterward.

I didn't mean to imply his past was THEE reason, but rather just a contributing factor. Their is obviously something with how he interviews given how he has the best resume AND is the leading candidate going in as often as he has been just to be continually passed over where an organization picks a different black HC.

That seems pretty compelling that it's not a race issue with Bieniemy, but rather an issue specific to him individually. But again, we've allowed this crippilling narrative to permeate in society where if you're a minority and something doesn't go the way you feel it should it automatically equates to racism as the reason why. That' not say that racism isn't the case sometimes, but it's become the default and this discussion is an example of it.

Describing the NFL as racist b/c of the lack of black HCs defies all evidence to the contrary unless you've convinced yourself that any racial disparity is the result of racism.

[Defense5599]

Using the model provided earlier, Frazier has coordinated top defensive units while in Buffalo. If all he's deserving of is an interview to check a box, there's a clear problem with the system.

Not necessarily. He had a HC job before and failed at it. Some people are better suited as being the assistant manager.

You're right. But some learn from their mistakes and do better the second time around. Or the third. Just ask Pete Carroll.

[BLT]

Not necessarily. He had a HC job before and failed at it. Some people are better suited as being the assistant manager.

You're right. But some learn from their mistakes and do better the second time around. Or the third. Just ask Pete Carroll.

Exception not the rule. There's a lot of new coaching candidates every year. It's hard to convince yourself to hire a retread as it should be.

[BLT]

Not necessarily. He had a HC job before and failed at it. Some people are better suited as being the assistant manager.

Adam Gase on line 1.

I don't understand what you're implying.

[Snake]

I think a lot of these old white and jewish owners want an academic. Because that’s what they think works. That’s what a lot of them have been around their whole life. If you can’t communicate a certain way and scratch that itch, they aren’t interested. It sounds like Bieniemy had that problem.

[King Bootz]

What exactly are you saying then? That if people simply ignore problem that it'll go away?

The fact that incentives had to be used to inspire change is a continuation of the problem and mirrors an issue in this country from nearly 200 years ago. Getting reparations for losing a black coach is a problem.

Additionally, your idea of how most NFL head coaches get their jobs is misguided and flat out wrong. What top unit did Zac Taylor coordinate? He's never been an NFL coordinator. Dan Campbell? Never been a coordinator.. Goes 3-13-1 his 1st year and is praised.. David Culley wins 1 more game and is fired. What about Joe Judge? Special Teams? Kliff Kingsbury? Losing record as a college HC. Brandon Staley? 1 year as a coordinator. Doug Pederson and Matt Nagy both spent 2 years as Andy Reid's OC and got HC jobs. Eric Bienemy comes in, the offense actually does better, produces a league MVP and Super Bowl win and another trip, yet he's been there 3 years and nothing.

If you really think HCs are hired because they coordinate top offenses, come stay at my Kansas oceanside villa.

I never stated or implied the issue "should be ignored and it will go away". It's pretty ridiculous you even typed that tbh but feel free explain how you came to such an interpretation.

Using incentives to change behaviors is a reality of human nature. I disagree it perpetuates the problem (lack of black HCs in the NFL). If the desired outcome is more black HCs and we're not getting there with false virtue (Rooney rule), hashtags, and shaming then changing the incentive structure is the obvious way to go.

What other solution do you propose? Or are you content with just complaining about the problem so you can call things racist without offering viable solution to fix/address the problem? We could do race quotas, is that fair? America is about 7% black, so rounding up that would mean 3 out of 32 owners would need to be black. But if we're doing race quotas should that mean more wyppo would have to play in the NFL?

Again, all racial disparities don't equate to racism. That's just simple minded CRT nonsense.

Bienemy aside (his past is the reason he hasn't got a HC job), who are the bright young HC candidates you feel deserve a job. Who are the Zac Taylor, Kliff Kingsbury, Matt LaFluer, Brandon Staley types out there who are being overlooked?

The most proven paths to becoming a HC in the NFL are being a successful cordinator and/or be part of/connected to a successful coaching tree (Walsh-Holmgren-Reid, McVay, Dungy, Belichick, etc)

What we need is better candidates along with another successful black HC like a Tony Dungy type who can develop coaches within a system that works and other teams copy as he did with Herm Edwards (who was just a DB coach here before getting a HC job) , Lovie Smith, Mike Tomlin, Marinelli, Joe Barry, etc.

The NFL has started conducting symposiums in the off season designed to develop black coaches, we also have the Pollard alliance of minority coaching internships, the improvements to the Rooney rule.

Well written post here, even if your information is inaccurate. I'll try to address everything.

Using incentives to change behavior brings light to the problem. Why should incentives have to be used to inject equality into the equation? That's the question that needs to be posed to the decision makers and its the uncomfortable part. People like you want to believe race plays no role in any decision making. It shouldn't but it does. Hard to prove because people obviously aren't vocal about it.

America is not 7% black. Last census had black population at 12.4%. So you were roughly 18 million people off. That said, the demographics you're basing this position off of is way too broad. It includes all age ranges, all genders. A 9 month old baby or 99 year old person shouldn't be included in the equation.

What's the percentage of white men to black men in this country? Gotta assume it's higher than 12%.

There's a very stark difference between being an owner/HC and having the talent to play in the NFL. White players aren't precluded at all and at 1 point in time made up the majority of players in this league. Even today, what's the percentage of white QBs to black QBs? White kickers to black kickers? Olinemen?

White players have never excluded from the league circles the way black executives and coaching candidates have been during this leagues history and in some aspects still are today.

The coaches you listed, none of them fit the mold you laid out earlier of having coordinated top units for multiple years. Kingsbury had a losing record at Texas Tech. Taylor spent 1 year as a coordinator in Miami 4 years before he was hired and it was a 6-10 bad Dolphins team. LaFluer spent 1 year in LA as OC and was let go. Went to Tennessee and coordinated the 27th ranked offense in football. Staley had 1 year as a DC. If they were judged by your model, none of them would've become HCs.

I'm aware of the symposiums and I think they are good for the game. I'm not a fan of the draft pick incentives. It's basically reparations. You shouldn't be rewarded because another team hires your minority candidate.

[King Bootz]

Adam Gase on line 1.

I don't understand what you're implying.

He failed as a HC and all he did was get fired and get another HC job a week later.

[ATrain]

So what's the magic number for black head coaches before it stops "being a problem"?

[IchabodCrane84]

Most coaches are hired and assembling their staff before the Super Bowl is played.

We've seen the difficulty of getting a coach in the building late with building his coaching staff in Schiano.

I'm more inclined to believe Bienemy's problem is he's been in the Super Bowl and teams didn't want to wait over anything else.

[King Bootz]

Most coaches are hired and assembling their staff before the Super Bowl is played.

We've seen the difficulty of getting a coach in the building late with building his coaching staff in Schiano.

I'm more inclined to believe Bienemy's problem is he's been in the Super Bowl and teams didn't want to wait over anything else.

I hate disagreeing with you, but with all due respect that doesn't pass the smell test. If that were the case Kyle Shanahan wouldn't be coaching the 49ers, Zac Taylor wouldn't be coaching the Bengals, Brian Flores wouldn't have gotten the Dolphins job.

[nybf]

I hate disagreeing with you

[King Bootz]

I hate disagreeing with you

Rent. Free.

[BLT]

I don't understand what you're implying.

He failed as a HC and all he did was get fired and get another HC job a week later.

Ah, got ya. To be fair it was an awful decision by a horrible franchise.

[King Bootz]

He failed as a HC and all he did was get fired and get another HC job a week later.

Ah, got ya. To be fair it was an awful decision by a horrible franchise.

Yea Gase. Eric Mangini. Chip Kelly. Kliff Kingsbury. Happens a lot...

[Snake]

Kingsbury didn’t work in college because he hated recruiting. Which is the most important part of the job. Recruiting players and staff every year. The skillset as an NFL HC is very different. It looks like they made the right choice.

[King Bootz]

Imagine having as aspect of your job so much you suck at it, have a losing record. And the consequence is you get a BETTER job.

[Snake]

Being an NFL head coach is totally unlike being a college head coach. Which is proven over and over again. You can be bad at one and good at the other.

I would hire a really talented computer programmer even if he’s sucked at being a carpenter for a year.

[King Bootz]

I suppose that's why we see so many college coaches who fail come to the NFL, right?

That reasoning doesn't even make sense.

[BLT]

I suppose that's why we see so many college coaches who fail come to the NFL, right?

That reasoning doesn't even make sense.

It does make sense though.

It's called evaluation. Some coaches are evaluated to be better suited for the NFL and some for college.

Same for coordinators who aren't looked at as head coaches.

[IchabodCrane84]

Most coaches are hired and assembling their staff before the Super Bowl is played.

We've seen the difficulty of getting a coach in the building late with building his coaching staff in Schiano.

I'm more inclined to believe Bienemy's problem is he's been in the Super Bowl and teams didn't want to wait over anything else.

I hate disagreeing with you, but with all due respect that doesn't pass the smell test. If that were the case Kyle Shanahan wouldn't be coaching the 49ers, Zac Taylor wouldn't be coaching the Bengals, Brian Flores wouldn't have gotten the Dolphins job.

Is 3 a lot? Maybe, and maybe there are too many variables to account for. Like if we lose Sunday and Bowles is hired as a HC. Would it have happened last year if we didn't play in the Super Bowl? Impossible to truly compare as different teams, different situations.

I haven't looked at it hard enough, but maybe I will. I do know as Bienemy was preparing for the last 2 Super Bowls new head coaches were preparing their coaching staff. I have 0 problem with you disagreeing. No one actually knows if it's one thing or another because we aren't in those rooms.

[Phantom]

More info on Flores

Multiple sources, including coaches on Brian Flores staff, reports Flores was frustrated by Tua Tagovailoa’s work ethic. Flores thought it was, per one source, “sh-tty.”

Flores was frustrated because he didn’t think Tagovailoa put in extra time on Mondays and Tuesdays during game week.

And if you know Flores, this won’t surprise: Flores didn’t keep quiet about it. He was “really hard” on Tagovailoa about it, per a source, even in the presence of others.

When Flores would find out Tagovailoa was golfing on off days during the season, he’d become upset and criticize him for that.

Flores benched Tagovailoa twice his rookie season, despite making him the starter, because he felt veteran Ryan Fitzpatrick gave the Dolphins a better chance to win. By the end of the 2020 season, Flores had lost confidence in Tagovailoa.

At one point in the 2021 season, he told people within the organization, “We’ll never win a championship with this guy,” referring to Tagovailoa.

Brian Flores was the leading proponent of the Dolphins making a push to trade for Houston QB Deshaun Watson, per multiple sources.

[acmillis]

More info on Flores

Multiple sources, including coaches on Brian Flores staff, reports Flores was frustrated by Tua Tagovailoa’s work ethic. Flores thought it was, per one source, “sh-tty.”

Flores was frustrated because he didn’t think Tagovailoa put in extra time on Mondays and Tuesdays during game week.

And if you know Flores, this won’t surprise: Flores didn’t keep quiet about it. He was “really hard” on Tagovailoa about it, per a source, even in the presence of others.

When Flores would find out Tagovailoa was golfing on off days during the season, he’d become upset and criticize him for that.

Flores benched Tagovailoa twice his rookie season, despite making him the starter, because he felt veteran Ryan Fitzpatrick gave the Dolphins a better chance to win. By the end of the 2020 season, Flores had lost confidence in Tagovailoa.

At one point in the 2021 season, he told people within the organization, “We’ll never win a championship with this guy,” referring to Tagovailoa.

Brian Flores was the leading proponent of the Dolphins making a push to trade for Houston QB Deshaun Watson, per multiple sources.

Flores ain’t wrong though. Tua seems to have that it factor… sh”it” that is

[acmillis]

Josh Freeman-“ I’d rather spend my off days doing blow and petting baby tigers”

Tua- “hold my ukulele”

[MJW]

More info on Flores

Flores ain’t wrong though. Tua seems to have that it factor… sh”it” that is

I always think it's a little lazy, because they're both Samoan...but Tua reminds me a lot of Mariota. He just doesn't bring a lot of juice to the huddle. He can make most of the throws and he has plus athleticism, but he doesn't seem like someone who can elevate his teammates. An ideal career backup/short term starter type, I guess.

That said, I don't blame the Dolphins. Revisionist history is fun, but 9 out of 10 fans/talking heads thought Tua was a better prospect than Herbert at the time (including me.)

[King Bootz]

Flores ain’t wrong though. Tua seems to have that it factor… sh”it” that is

I always think it's a little lazy, because they're both Samoan...but Tua reminds me a lot of Mariota. He just doesn't bring a lot of juice to the huddle. He can make most of the throws and he has plus athleticism, but he doesn't seem like someone who can elevate his teammates. An ideal career backup/short term starter type, I guess.

That said, I don't blame the Dolphins. Revisionist history is fun, but 9 out of 10 fans/talking heads thought Tua was a better prospect than Herbert at the time (including me.)

I think the comparison fits very well. Both have been productive. Have extensive injury histories. Mariota despite actually winning a playoff game never really felt like a franchise QB. It’s beginning to feel that same way with Tua.

Speaking of Herbert, he’s 15-17 in his career while Tua is 13-8. Another reason why, as was discussed in the MVP thread before I locked it, wins shouldn’t necessarily be considered a QB stat.