Man in the Arena: Tom’s Glory.

[BJJ34]

Figured I’d start a new thread for this discussion:

Tom comes across very passionate but simple minded in his approach to the game. Football is an ultimate K.I.S.S. sport and Tom seems to live by that. The one part of ‘Goliaths’ where pre-snap he tells Randy to go anywhere on the field… knowing 84 is going deep.

I’m also excited to hear him talk about Evans/Godwin if/when we get last year’s team episode.

It’s really remarkable to see how much the game means to him… and hearing him say “had we gone undefeated, maybe my goals change” means he wants perfection. He came here because he believed we could do it. That means something to me as a Buccaneers fan.

[Backside]

It’s a far cry from The Last Dance. But it’s still pretty good. I watched the first two and enjoyed them. It would be pure porn for a Patriots fan. Not sure I’ll watch them all, but would absolutely watch a Bucs episode.

[Snake]

Edit: didn’t realize MJW made a thread about this a few months ago that I even commented in. Whoops.

Tom is 44-years-old and currently way out ahead as the odds on NFL MVP. We're in fantasy land, but if the Bucs repeat, Tom wins MVP, SBMVP, and makes the all-pros, he has a legitimate shot at 3 HOF careers in one.

Phase I

2000-2009 (23-32 y/o)
5 pro-bowls, 1 all-pro appearance
1 NFL MVPs
3 SB wins, 2 SB MVPs
97-30 regular season record, 14-4 playoff record
225 TDs - 99 INTs

Phase II

2010-2016 (33-39 y/o)
7 pro-bowls, 1 all-pro appearance
2 SB wins, 2 SB MVPs
1 NFL MVP
72-20 regular season record, 11-4 playoff record
195 TDs - 49 INTs

Phase III (including a 2022 season for stats)

2017-2022 (40-45 y/o)
5 pro-bowls, 2 all-pro appearances
4 SB wins, 1 SB MVP?
2 NFL MVPs
205 TDs - 65 INTs
72-30 regular season record, 11-1 playoff record

[Doooshnzl]

TB12 is without doubt the most accomplished, decorated athlete of all time. And he is our QB.
Revel in this folks, it's other worldly.

[BJJ34]

It’s a far cry from The Last Dance. But it’s still pretty good. I watched the first two and enjoyed them. It would be pure porn for a Patriots fan. Not sure I’ll watch them all, but would absolutely watch a Bucs episode.

There’s 10 episodes. I believe one for every Super Bowl run.

[Kress]

TB12 is without doubt the most accomplished, decorated athlete of all time.

That would be an interesting debate. Is Phelps more decorated? What about Bill Russell, having more rings than fingers to put them on? Most accomplished - Jordan? Most dominant, Gretzky? You can go all different ways with that.

[BJJ34]

TB12 is without doubt the most accomplished, decorated athlete of all time.

That would be an interesting debate. Is Phelps more decorated? What about Bill Russell, having more rings than fingers to put them on? Most accomplished - Jordan? Most dominant, Gretzky? You can go all different ways with that.

Depends on what you view as most challenging.

Tom has done more with little athletic physique than anyone else. That’s 100% fact. Dominance is a better debate. He’s been to 10 superbowls in 20 years. Not many QBs have played in more than 1, yet alone won 7.

Jordan’s accomplishments are an interesting thing to argue as well. Brady has almost every record passing wise in the league.

[Snake]

I’m at the point in my sports fandom where I separate athletes who compete directly with each other versus athletes who compete alongside each other. Yeah Phelps has a swim next to a guy. Tiger Woods has to hit a ball next to a guy. I think it’s more impressive if you’re performance has to overcome active resistance from your competition.
I find competition to be more impressive than a contest. It’s why the three-point contest is boring. It’s why the QB skills challenge is boring. Because it’s not real competition. It’s a contest.

[Kress]

I’m at the point in my sports fandom where I separate athletes who compete directly with each other versus athletes who compete alongside each other. Yeah Phelps has a swim next to a guy. Tiger Woods has to hit a ball next to a guy. I think it’s more impressive if you’re performance has to overcome active resistance from your competition.
I find competition to be more impressive than a contest. It’s why the three-point contest is boring. It’s why the QB skills challenge is boring. Because it’s not real competition. It’s a contest.

But the flip side is you then add in the team aspect. Tom doesn't complete a single pass unless somebody catches it, his stats go to hell if people just tip his passes up for DB's to grab, and he doesn't have as many rings if his kicker nubs a knuckleball.

[Buc2]

I’m at the point in my sports fandom where I separate athletes who compete directly with each other versus athletes who compete alongside each other. Yeah Phelps has a swim next to a guy. Tiger Woods has to hit a ball next to a guy. I think it’s more impressive if you’re performance has to overcome active resistance from your competition.
I find competition to be more impressive than a contest. It’s why the three-point contest is boring. It’s why the QB skills challenge is boring. Because it’s not real competition. It’s a contest.

But the flip side is you then add in the team aspect. Tom doesn't complete a single pass unless somebody catches it, his stats go to hell if people just tip his passes up for DB's to grab, and he doesn't have as many rings if his kicker nubs a knuckleball.

Yep. There's a reason Brady deflects praise to all his fellow players. He's well aware it's a team sport and without the team, he's nothing.

[BJJ34]

I’m at the point in my sports fandom where I separate athletes who compete directly with each other versus athletes who compete alongside each other. Yeah Phelps has a swim next to a guy. Tiger Woods has to hit a ball next to a guy. I think it’s more impressive if you’re performance has to overcome active resistance from your competition.
I find competition to be more impressive than a contest. It’s why the three-point contest is boring. It’s why the QB skills challenge is boring. Because it’s not real competition. It’s a contest.

So where do you rank fighters in this discussion?

Jon Jones or Anderson Silva have to be in comparison with Phelps regarding greatness considering their opponents are actively trying to kill them?

[BJJ34]

I’m at the point in my sports fandom where I separate athletes who compete directly with each other versus athletes who compete alongside each other. Yeah Phelps has a swim next to a guy. Tiger Woods has to hit a ball next to a guy. I think it’s more impressive if you’re performance has to overcome active resistance from your competition.
I find competition to be more impressive than a contest. It’s why the three-point contest is boring. It’s why the QB skills challenge is boring. Because it’s not real competition. It’s a contest.

But the flip side is you then add in the team aspect. Tom doesn't complete a single pass unless somebody catches it, his stats go to hell if people just tip his passes up for DB's to grab, and he doesn't have as many rings if his kicker nubs a knuckleball.

How many careers would be different if the Tuck Rule didn’t give Brady some ultimate confidence?

If Moss doesn’t drop the ball at the end of the Giants game. If Tyree doesn’t pin it to his helmet.

How many careers would be different if serious injuries didn’t happen?

The NFL is the best because of the ultimate what ifs never being truly solved.

[Snake]

I’m at the point in my sports fandom where I separate athletes who compete directly with each other versus athletes who compete alongside each other. Yeah Phelps has a swim next to a guy. Tiger Woods has to hit a ball next to a guy. I think it’s more impressive if you’re performance has to overcome active resistance from your competition.
I find competition to be more impressive than a contest. It’s why the three-point contest is boring. It’s why the QB skills challenge is boring. Because it’s not real competition. It’s a contest.

So where do you rank fighters in this discussion?

Jon Jones or Anderson Silva have to be in comparison with Phelps regarding greatness considering their opponents are actively trying to kill them?

I respect what Jones and Silva have done a lot more than Phelps lol.

[Kress]

So where do you rank fighters in this discussion?

Jon Jones or Anderson Silva have to be in comparison with Phelps regarding greatness considering their opponents are actively trying to kill them?

Cael Sanderson - wrestler.

As a wrestler, he won an Olympic Gold medal and was undefeated in four years of college wrestling at Iowa State University (ISU) (159–0), becoming a four-time NCAA Division I champion (1999–2002). He is the only wrestler in NCAA Division I history to go undefeated in official matches with more than 100 wins. Sports Illustrated named his college career as the second most impressive college sports feat behind the setting of four world records by Jesse Owens in a single hour at the 1935 Big Ten track and field conference championship meet.

Let that sink in for a minute. 159-0.

[nybf]

So where do you rank fighters in this discussion?

Jon Jones or Anderson Silva have to be in comparison with Phelps regarding greatness considering their opponents are actively trying to kill them?

I respect what Jones and Silva have done a lot more than Phelps lol.

Now what if the olympics let Phelps dope up and didn't care about it until after he got the ratings they were looking for?

[Snake]

I respect what Jones and Silva have done a lot more than Phelps lol.

Now what if the olympics let Phelps dope up and didn't care about it until after he got the ratings they were looking for?

Why are we assuming he isn’t doped? The Olympics are just as corrupt as any other sporting entity. We’re at the point where we need to assume all elite athletes who make money from sports are doped. The UFC can be more brazen about selectively caring because one person runs the show.

[BJJ34]

So where do you rank fighters in this discussion?

Jon Jones or Anderson Silva have to be in comparison with Phelps regarding greatness considering their opponents are actively trying to kill them?

Cael Sanderson - wrestler.

As a wrestler, he won an Olympic Gold medal and was undefeated in four years of college wrestling at Iowa State University (ISU) (159–0), becoming a four-time NCAA Division I champion (1999–2002). He is the only wrestler in NCAA Division I history to go undefeated in official matches with more than 100 wins. Sports Illustrated named his college career as the second most impressive college sports feat behind the setting of four world records by Jesse Owens in a single hour at the 1935 Big Ten track and field conference championship meet.

Let that sink in for a minute. 159-0.

And only makes 175k teaching wrestlers at PSU his trade. One of the best coaches ever too.

[BJJ34]

I respect what Jones and Silva have done a lot more than Phelps lol.

Now what if the olympics let Phelps dope up and didn't care about it until after he got the ratings they were looking for?

Are we forgetting about the outrage for Phelps smoking pot?

Jones’ steroid usage/off cage stuff is probably a bad example. But he’s honestly the most dominant athlete I’ve seen.

And the Olympics are so corrupt they have to rule out entire nations from competing.

[Noles1724]

My defense for Tiger is just how dominate he was to his peers. Understanding 1v1/head to head, but golf is almost a 1v2 if you add in the course(s) as an opponent.

2000 season was just nuts
best scoring average of 68.17, which is the best in the history of golf
47 consecutive rounds of par or better and completed all 20 events of the season under par.

he basically won the U.S. Open with a torn ACL(playoff was a whole 18 holes)
won The Masters by 12 strokes (largest ever)

Woods is credited with 41 European Tour victories – the third of all time – despite never being a full member. Next on the list of players still playing regularly on the European Tour is Lee Westwood with 25.

Woods’ 46 PGA Tour wins while in his 20s alone would put him 8th on the all-time list. Jack Nicklaus is second on that list with 30 wins in his 20s.

In the four-major era, there are only two occasions where a player has won a major by 10 or more strokes – both were Woods, at the 1997 Masters and 2000 US Open. The other four times it happened were all in the 19th century: Tom Morris Sr by 13 at the 1862 Open; Tom Morris Jr by 11 at the 1869 Open and by 12 at the same tournament a year later; and Willie Smith by 11 at the 1899 US Open.

From 1997 to 2013 Woods was a combined 126-under-par in major championships. next on the list? Steve Flesch, who was a whopping 251 strokes behind Woods at 125-over-par. Phil Mickelson is third on +128 and Hunter Mahan fourth on +137.

The gap between him and his peers is probably the widest margin of all 'goats' in their respective sports.

[Kress]

And the Olympics are so corrupt they have to rule out entire nations from competing.

I'm not saying the Olympics aren't a politicized cluster-f, but that's not how logic works.

[nybf]

Now what if the olympics let Phelps dope up and didn't care about it until after he got the ratings they were looking for?

Are we forgetting about the outrage for Phelps smoking pot?

Jones’ steroid usage/off cage stuff is probably a bad example. But he’s honestly the most dominant athlete I’ve seen.

And the Olympics are so corrupt they have to rule out entire nations from competing.

You, of all people?

Let Phelps get high as fuck and swim against you.

Then let Jones get coked out his steroid addled mind and pound on you until the ref stops it.

Do you, Mr weed spokesman, see the difference?

[Snake]

LOL!

[Dread]

Now what if the olympics let Phelps dope up and didn't care about it until after he got the ratings they were looking for?

Are we forgetting about the outrage for Phelps smoking pot?

Yeah man, imagine how many Medals Phelps could've won if they let him swim while on deh weed.

[Rocker]

So where do you rank fighters in this discussion?

Jon Jones or Anderson Silva have to be in comparison with Phelps regarding greatness considering their opponents are actively trying to kill them?

Cael Sanderson - wrestler.

As a wrestler, he won an Olympic Gold medal and was undefeated in four years of college wrestling at Iowa State University (ISU) (159–0), becoming a four-time NCAA Division I champion (1999–2002). He is the only wrestler in NCAA Division I history to go undefeated in official matches with more than 100 wins. Sports Illustrated named his college career as the second most impressive college sports feat behind the setting of four world records by Jesse Owens in a single hour at the 1935 Big Ten track and field conference championship meet.

Let that sink in for a minute. 159-0.

My HS coach made us watch his matches before practice and competition. That dude was on another level. Mentally. Physical gifts aside, Cael had/has an understanding for the sport that can't be accurately described.

[BJJ34]

Are we forgetting about the outrage for Phelps smoking pot?

Jones’ steroid usage/off cage stuff is probably a bad example. But he’s honestly the most dominant athlete I’ve seen.

And the Olympics are so corrupt they have to rule out entire nations from competing.

You, of all people?

Let Phelps get high as fuck and swim against you.

Then let Jones get coked out his steroid addled mind and pound on you until the ref stops it.

Do you, Mr weed spokesman, see the difference?

Apples to Oranges, NY.

[Max]

We're in fantasy land, but if the Bucs repeat, Tom wins MVP, SBMVP, and makes the all-pros, he has a legitimate shot at 3 HOF careers in one.

He already has though, Nick Wright of all people made that case after the Super Bowl:

Troy Aikman phase 2001-06

5 Division Titles (6)
3 Super Bowl Titles (3)
2 Super Bowl MVP (1)

Dan Marino phase 2007-13

6 Divison Titles (6)
2 Super Bowl App. (1)
2 Regular Season MVP (1)
2 Pass TD Leader (3)

Joe Montana phase 2014-20

4 Super Bowl Titles (4)
3 Super Bowl MVP (3)
1 Regular Season MVP (2)

[uscbucsfan]

We're in fantasy land, but if the Bucs repeat, Tom wins MVP, SBMVP, and makes the all-pros, he has a legitimate shot at 3 HOF careers in one.

He already has though, Nick Wright of all people made that case after the Super Bowl:

Troy Aikman phase 2001-06

5 Division Titles (6)
3 Super Bowl Titles (3)
2 Super Bowl MVP (1)

Dan Marino phase 2007-13

6 Divison Titles (6)
2 Super Bowl App. (1)
2 Regular Season MVP (1)
2 Pass TD Leader (3)

Joe Montana phase 2014-20

4 Super Bowl Titles (4)
3 Super Bowl MVP (3)
1 Regular Season MVP (2)

2007-2013 would be a stretch at best. Just those things and stats probably wouldn't get you in, certainly not first ballot...Calling it the "Dan Marino phase" is also ridiculous.

[acmillis]

How many players who have won multiple MVP awards are not in the HoF?

[Max]

He already has though, Nick Wright of all people made that case after the Super Bowl:

Troy Aikman phase 2001-06

5 Division Titles (6)
3 Super Bowl Titles (3)
2 Super Bowl MVP (1)

Dan Marino phase 2007-13

6 Divison Titles (6)
2 Super Bowl App. (1)
2 Regular Season MVP (1)
2 Pass TD Leader (3)

Joe Montana phase 2014-20

4 Super Bowl Titles (4)
3 Super Bowl MVP (3)
1 Regular Season MVP (2)

2007-2013 would be a stretch at best. Just those things and stats probably wouldn't get you in, certainly not first ballot...Calling it the "Dan Marino phase" is also ridiculous.

78-19 record (0.804)
27,585 YDS
212 TD
56 INT
102.2 passer rating 

2 Regular season MVPs 
2 Super Bowl appearances 
Only 16-0 regular season record in NFL history
2 All-Pros
6 Pro-Bowls

Same amount of division titles, double the amount of Super Bowl appearances and MVP awards than Marino. More TD passes than Aikman and Warner. Only down 5,000 to Aikman, Warner and Young in passing yards. 

That's a hall of fame career.

[uscbucsfan]

2007-2013 would be a stretch at best. Just those things and stats probably wouldn't get you in, certainly not first ballot...Calling it the "Dan Marino phase" is also ridiculous.

78-19 record (0.804)
27,585 YDS
212 TD
56 INT
102.2 passer rating 

2 Regular season MVPs 
2 Super Bowl appearances 
Only 16-0 regular season record in NFL history
2 All-Pros
6 Pro-Bowls

Same amount of division titles, double the amount of Super Bowl appearances and MVP awards than Marino. More TD passes than Aikman and Warner. Only down 5,000 to Aikman, Warner and Young in passing yards. 

That's a hall of fame career.

lol.

No it's not. That as a career in itself is not a HOF career. There's no reason to try to stretch his career.

[uscbucsfan]

2007-2013 would be a stretch at best. Just those things and stats probably wouldn't get you in, certainly not first ballot...Calling it the "Dan Marino phase" is also ridiculous.

78-19 record (0.804)
27,585 YDS
212 TD
56 INT
102.2 passer rating 

2 Regular season MVPs 
2 Super Bowl appearances 
Only 16-0 regular season record in NFL history
2 All-Pros
6 Pro-Bowls

Same amount of division titles, double the amount of Super Bowl appearances and MVP awards than Marino. More TD passes than Aikman and Warner. Only down 5,000 to Aikman, Warner and Young in passing yards. 

That's a hall of fame career.

lol.

No it's not. That as a career in itself is not a HOF career. There's no reason to try to stretch his career.

You are trying to pick portions of other HOF careers to try to build your narrative. It doesn't work like that.

[Snake]

Every multiple time winner is in the HOF. The two who haven’t are both active (Rodgers, Brady) and they’ll get in.


What you’re talking about is a hypothetical that has not happened yet. A player peaking fast, dominating for a few years to the tune of multiple MVPs, and retiring or getting hurt and retiring.

Imagine if Lamar Jackson won MVP this season. And then appeared in the Super Bowl this season and next season and lost them both. He already has one MVP. Another gets him to two. He has limited postseason success. Then he retired or had a concussion and then was forced to retire.

Would that be a Hall of Fame player?

You’re not gonna get those 7 to 10 years of extra statistical accumulation. You’re not gonna get a SB win.

Edit:

There have been nine multiple time winners. Eight of them are quarterbacks. The ninth one is Jim Brown. Every single one has a Super Bowl win.

[acmillis]

Every multiple time winner is in the HOF. The two who haven’t are both active (Rodgers, Brady) and they’ll get in.


What you’re talking about is a hypothetical that has not happened yet. A player peaking fast, dominating for a few years to the tune of multiple MVPs, and retiring or getting hurt and retiring.

Imagine if Lamar Jackson won MVP this season. And then appeared in the Super Bowl this season and next season and lost them both. He already has one MVP. Another gets him to two. He has limited postseason success. Then he retired or had a concussion and then was forced to retire.

Would that be a Hall of Fame player?

You’re not gonna get those 7 to 10 years of extra statistical accumulation. You’re not gonna get a SB win.

I guess the only player I can think that kind of fits that bill is Calvin Johnson. Sure, he played 9 season, but he's in the HOF...first ballot, no doubter. Megatron "only" made 3 all-pro teams in his entire career, so we're not talking year after year of domination (at least All-Pro wise), and he is certainly deserved of the 1st ballot status.

[uscbucsfan]

I guess the only player I can think that kind of fits that bill is Calvin Johnson. Sure, he played 9 season, but he's in the HOF...first ballot, no doubter. Megatron "only" made 3 all-pro teams in his entire career, so we're not talking year after year of domination (at least All-Pro wise), and he is certainly deserved of the 1st ballot status.

All-Pro is just 1 metric. Johnson had the stats, publicity, and respect from media and players (it's still a popularity contest)

I think I saw that during that time he made the most All-Pro teams as a WR (4). That's a lot of All-Pro teams in a 9 year career. Brady only has 5.

[Snake]

I like the conversation because it makes you think about the factors leading to a Hall of Fame induction for players.

- peak/prime performance
- longevity
- playoff success
- accolades
- off-the-field factors

We know there’s no one way to get in. Eli Manning is going to get in because of his two Super Bowl wins. He played for a long time but he was never a top-five quarterback. You could argue if he was ever top 10. His brother Peyton also has two rings but is better known for unprecedented regular season domination. Jim Kelly was a five-time pro bowler who lost four Super Bowls. Never won an MVP unless we count the USFL years. 1x all pro.