I swear, I never even noticed.
OJ Howard
- King Bootz
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Re: OJ Howard
I didn't notice until I saw the snap counts for the game.
What sticks out to me more is that Breshad Perriman is basically our 3rd WR now. He had 59 snaps this game, 1 more than Gronk even. Tyler Johnson only had 9, Scotty had 4. Are we so ready to crown TJ as the next Chris Godwin?
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Re: OJ Howard
Nope. Godwin looked like Godwin even as a rookie. TJ hasn’t shown that ability and it’s obviously not due to lack of snaps.King Bootz wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:31 amI didn't notice until I saw the snap counts for the game.
What sticks out to me more is that Breshad Perriman is basically our 3rd WR now. He had 59 snaps this game, 1 more than Gronk even. Tyler Johnson only had 9, Scotty had 4. Are we so ready to crown TJ as the next Chris Godwin?
Re: OJ Howard
Maybe they just wanted Perriman to get in some work to help him get up to speed with AB out at least another 2 games. I mean, that seems dumb to me, but I got nothing else. lolPrimeminister wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:36 amNope. Godwin looked like Godwin even as a rookie. TJ hasn’t shown that ability and it’s obviously not due to lack of snaps.King Bootz wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:31 am
I didn't notice until I saw the snap counts for the game.
What sticks out to me more is that Breshad Perriman is basically our 3rd WR now. He had 59 snaps this game, 1 more than Gronk even. Tyler Johnson only had 9, Scotty had 4. Are we so ready to crown TJ as the next Chris Godwin?
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Re: OJ Howard
I'm not a fan of TJ like some here. He seemingly runs the wrong route too often, turns the wrong way, and has had his share of drops.Primeminister wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:36 amNope. Godwin looked like Godwin even as a rookie. TJ hasn’t shown that ability and it’s obviously not due to lack of snaps.King Bootz wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:31 am
I didn't notice until I saw the snap counts for the game.
What sticks out to me more is that Breshad Perriman is basically our 3rd WR now. He had 59 snaps this game, 1 more than Gronk even. Tyler Johnson only had 9, Scotty had 4. Are we so ready to crown TJ as the next Chris Godwin?
I am surprised by us not using Scotty, but we've condensed our passing game greatly...and maybe that's why. I read an article about how with each game our yards per attempt gets smaller and has been that way since the Bears game. Brady is checking down at a quicker rate and we're also calling more short passes.
Re: OJ Howard
I will be honest. Brate is not the blocker that Gronk is but he appears to be the heir apparent in the receiving game. OJ Howard looks to be a better blocker than Brate but has not stood out as a receiver at all. I would, at this point, keep Brate and move on from OJ.
Re: OJ Howard
TJ also doesn't have the explosiveness/speed that BA wants in his WR3. But why we're seeing Perriman instead of Miller is interesting.Buc2 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:58 amMaybe they just wanted Perriman to get in some work to help him get up to speed with AB out at least another 2 games. I mean, that seems dumb to me, but I got nothing else. lolPrimeminister wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:36 am
Nope. Godwin looked like Godwin even as a rookie. TJ hasn’t shown that ability and it’s obviously not due to lack of snaps.
If Godwin misses a game we'd see more of TJ as he is the primary back-up to Godwin in that role that Hines Ward, Larry Fitz, and now Godwin fill for Arians.
But TJ isn't Godwin and likely never will be in terms of talent or production. That said, of Godwin gets away in FA this offseason TJ is the next man up on the current roster to help fill that void.
Re: OJ Howard
Brate is under contract next season and loves the Tampa area, so he might even take a bit of pay cut if asked (providing his BFF Ryan Griffin is kept around).13F11B wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:09 am I will be honest. Brate is not the blocker that Gronk is but he appears to be the heir apparent in the receiving game. OJ Howard looks to be a better blocker than Brate but has not stood out as a receiver at all. I would, at this point, keep Brate and move on from OJ.
Howard is a UFA this offseason and he's the TE3 for us. In 4+ years Howard has not shown the potential to be a dependable TE1 for team imo. Licht has repeatedly shown the willingness to cut bait on high picks that don't work out. So I don't think we even make an offer to Howard unless there is no market for him in Free Agency and we could get him back on the cheap.
Re: OJ Howard
Teams are using a lot of deep safety help to try to shut down Evans and Godwin, so sending Scotty out on another deep route isn't really in the cards. It also means Brady is perfectly happy to play Mr. Checkdown all day long. As a general theme, at least.uscbucsfan wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:01 am I am surprised by us not using Scotty, but we've condensed our passing game greatly...and maybe that's why. I read an article about how with each game our yards per attempt gets smaller and has been that way since the Bears game. Brady is checking down at a quicker rate and we're also calling more short passes.
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Re: OJ Howard
Tom is checking down more because Lenny has become a positive target that can get yards.uscbucsfan wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:01 amI'm not a fan of TJ like some here. He seemingly runs the wrong route too often, turns the wrong way, and has had his share of drops.Primeminister wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:36 am
Nope. Godwin looked like Godwin even as a rookie. TJ hasn’t shown that ability and it’s obviously not due to lack of snaps.
I am surprised by us not using Scotty, but we've condensed our passing game greatly...and maybe that's why. I read an article about how with each game our yards per attempt gets smaller and has been that way since the Bears game. Brady is checking down at a quicker rate and we're also calling more short passes.
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Re: OJ Howard
I didn't say it was a bad thing, but I'm guessing that's a reason (coupled with his injury) on why Miller hasn't been utilized more.Primeminister wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:48 pmTom is checking down more because Lenny has become a positive target that can get yards.uscbucsfan wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:01 am
I'm not a fan of TJ like some here. He seemingly runs the wrong route too often, turns the wrong way, and has had his share of drops.
I am surprised by us not using Scotty, but we've condensed our passing game greatly...and maybe that's why. I read an article about how with each game our yards per attempt gets smaller and has been that way since the Bears game. Brady is checking down at a quicker rate and we're also calling more short passes.
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Re: OJ Howard
I'd have no problem with Howard as our 3rd TE next year if he'll take the veteran minimum.
Re: OJ Howard
I wouldn't even consider him one of the hard choices.Cheb wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:19 pm I like OJ Howard, and if I ever see him out and about I'll be happy to buy the man a beer, thank him for being on the team, and talk ball.
But I think his time on our team is done after this year. We are going to have to make some hard choices with our available cap space next off-season, and OJ Howard is likely not a top priority.
- Defense5599
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Re: OJ Howard
I agree, but some team will pay him starter's money.CannonFire wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:36 pm I'd have no problem with Howard as our 3rd TE next year if he'll take the veteran minimum.
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Re: OJ Howard
I would offer him more than that. He's a better than average blocker with two years in the offense. It would make sense to me to bring him back and let him compete on those terms, with the slim hope he can ever become a consistent passing threat.CannonFire wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:36 pm I'd have no problem with Howard as our 3rd TE next year if he'll take the veteran minimum.
But, chances are, some GM who loved him in the draft 5 years ago will look at his measurables and highlights and offer him "real" money. There are a lot of totally mediocre tight ends starting in the league right now.
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- King Bootz
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Re: OJ Howard
I don't see that happening at all. 5 years is a very long time in the NFL. Who would this mystery GM be?MJW wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:24 amI would offer him more than that. He's a better than average blocker with two years in the offense. It would make sense to me to bring him back and let him compete on those terms, with the slim hope he can ever become a consistent passing threat.CannonFire wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:36 pm I'd have no problem with Howard as our 3rd TE next year if he'll take the veteran minimum.
But, chances are, some GM who loved him in the draft 5 years ago will look at his measurables and highlights and offer him "real" money. There are a lot of totally mediocre tight ends starting in the league right now.
Plus keep in mind OJ was a projected top 5, top 10 pick that fell to 19. It's not as if that draft was particularly deep at other key positions. I think honestly Jason Licht was a party of 1 on the OJ Howard 1st round list. Maybe Cleveland takes him over Njoku but even he fell to 29.
Additionally after adding Gronk you'd have to believe OJ would've been gone via some GM offering a trade we couldn't refuse. I don't buy that BA was ever looking to run all of these multiple TE looks or was ever interested in having the best TE room in football. The last 2 seasons have been evidence of this. Brate & OJ have largely been non-factors.
Best bet, OJ walks via FA, gets a 1 or 2 year deal elsewhere and we get a better shot at getting one of those comp picks you obsess over.
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Re: OJ Howard
That would be remarkable considering I don't think we'd even get a 7th for himDefense5599 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:37 pmI agree, but some team will pay him starter's money.CannonFire wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:36 pm I'd have no problem with Howard as our 3rd TE next year if he'll take the veteran minimum.
Re: OJ Howard
Unless you're one of the elite TE's in the NFL you don't get paid very well as a TE compared to most other "starters"Defense5599 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:37 pmI agree, but some team will pay him starter's money.CannonFire wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:36 pm I'd have no problem with Howard as our 3rd TE next year if he'll take the veteran minimum.
Only 7 TE's make over $10M/yr on their current contract.
Cam Brate is the 18th highest paid TE at $6M/yr, Gronk is 12th at $8M/yr. That's using the AAV of their contract.
As an example Gerald Everett, who is a very athletic player that was drafted and played with the Rams before signing with Seattle in free agency last season where he signed a 1yr - $6M deal.
I don't think OJ Howard will even get that in FA. Teams know he has bad hands and thus can't be relied upon as a TE1.
So for a team that runs alot of 2 TE sets he may have some value in that TE2 role. But we're talking around $3M/yr imo, maybe $4M if a team believes in him.
But I don't expect a very robust market for OJ Howard and TEs already don't make much relatively speaking.
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Re: OJ Howard
Then he can go, fine with me.Defense5599 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:37 pmI agree, but some team will pay him starter's money.CannonFire wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:36 pm I'd have no problem with Howard as our 3rd TE next year if he'll take the veteran minimum.
It'll be interesting how the Bucs attack the TE position next year. Brate will be on the books for a $7.25M cap hit. Of that hit, $6.8M is cash. The Bucs could just cut him and get hit with a $1.9M dead cap number which would still save then $5.2M in cap space.
Howard's contract is up as is Gronk's, but Gronk has a lot of voidable years on his deal which will tag the Bucs with a $5M cap hit 3 weeks after the season. I'm not sure how that's going to work. I mean, the Bucs could release Brate and let Howard and Gronk walk. With the cap hits and cap relief, the next result would be no cap hit... but we'd have no TE's.
On the surface, that's a bad thing, but I'm not sure how much. They could just give Gronk a new 2-year $25M deal and let him ride off in the sunset after the 2023 season. Go back and re-sign Brate for 3 years at $10M (a Mo Alie-Cox type deal), then go draft a TE and let someone invest in Howard.
- King Bootz
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Re: OJ Howard
Why pay OJ Howard anything? He's not a good football player. Hardly mediocre. Let him walk and let some other team try to bank off of the 9 years of "potential" he's had.
Re: OJ Howard
I’m ready to move on from OJ. I think he will find a place in the NFL for a while yet. But I’m ready for some new blood.
Re: OJ Howard
These were my thoughts on Carnell Williams, Michael Clayton, etc. They're first rounders, so a lot of times, they'll get the extended benefit of the doubt that after five years, they'll miraculously change and live up to their high draft pick status....it doesn't happen that way.King Bootz wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:47 am Why pay OJ Howard anything? He's not a good football player. Hardly mediocre. Let him walk and let some other team try to bank off of the 9 years of "potential" he's had.
After 5 years, a player is who he is.
Re: OJ Howard
I mean, true, but not ALWAYS true. Terry Bradshaw famously threw for more interceptions than touchdowns in each of his first 5 seasons. He now sits in the Hall with 4 rings.
- King Bootz
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Re: OJ Howard
Exactly right. Licht did the same thing when he exercised Hargreaves option. To some degree, same thing occured when exercised Howard's option as well.acmillis wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:49 amThese were my thoughts on Carnell Williams, Michael Clayton, etc. They're first rounders, so a lot of times, they'll get the extended benefit of the doubt that after five years, they'll miraculously change and live up to their high draft pick status....it doesn't happen that way.King Bootz wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:47 am Why pay OJ Howard anything? He's not a good football player. Hardly mediocre. Let him walk and let some other team try to bank off of the 9 years of "potential" he's had.
After 5 years, a player is who he is.
Re: OJ Howard
I think OJ Howard is another classic case of a player who is overhyped based on their size, athleticism, and program they came from.
With OJ he had all those boxes checked, great physical talent and size along with great pedigree.
What the scouts all missed was if he was a good football player, specifically a good TE since that is the position he played.
He's just not a good receiver of the football. Catching the football doesn't look natural for OJ the way it does with most NFL TEs/WRs. He's got what baseball and football scouts/fans call 'stone hands', or the opposite of having 'soft hands' like a you see with a middle infielder in baseball or a good pass catcher in football.
Beyond that despite being a bright guy he doesn't seem to be a smart football player when it comes to the needed on the fly adjustments required to excel when running routes. Like where and when to break a route off vs zone to find the soft spot, understanding the leverage your defender is using and overcoming it to get open, etc.
For those reasons he'll never be the productive TE1 his talents warrants, I think teams know this by now and why he won't be highly sought after in free agency.
But if we're talking OJ Howard as a TE2 for $2-3M/yr, I wouldn't protest that move. I just think the Bucs are ready to move on and a new place might be best for Howard also.
With OJ he had all those boxes checked, great physical talent and size along with great pedigree.
What the scouts all missed was if he was a good football player, specifically a good TE since that is the position he played.
He's just not a good receiver of the football. Catching the football doesn't look natural for OJ the way it does with most NFL TEs/WRs. He's got what baseball and football scouts/fans call 'stone hands', or the opposite of having 'soft hands' like a you see with a middle infielder in baseball or a good pass catcher in football.
Beyond that despite being a bright guy he doesn't seem to be a smart football player when it comes to the needed on the fly adjustments required to excel when running routes. Like where and when to break a route off vs zone to find the soft spot, understanding the leverage your defender is using and overcoming it to get open, etc.
For those reasons he'll never be the productive TE1 his talents warrants, I think teams know this by now and why he won't be highly sought after in free agency.
But if we're talking OJ Howard as a TE2 for $2-3M/yr, I wouldn't protest that move. I just think the Bucs are ready to move on and a new place might be best for Howard also.
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Re: OJ Howard
IMO Jason Licht was the only GM who didn't realize this. Again OJ was projected as a top 5 pick in mock drafts. Top 10 at the latest. He fell to 19. That should've been a red flag IMO. Why is a 6-6 250lbs TE that runs a 4.5 and had a huge National Championship game falling this far? Because the production at Bama never matched the hype. Didn't come close. And no matter how adamant fans were that it was Nick Saban's fault, the fact remains that if OJ was good enough he would've shown it.
Re: OJ Howard
That may be true, but the position value of a TE was also a factor. Same reason Dalvin Cook and Joe Mixon fell to round 2 in that same draft class. Point being, what TE has gone top 10, or even top 20 historically that was worth that high of a pick?King Bootz wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:23 pm IMO Jason Licht was the only GM who didn't realize this. Again OJ was projected as a top 5 pick in mock drafts. Top 10 at the latest. He fell to 19. That should've been a red flag IMO. Why is a 6-6 250lbs TE that runs a 4.5 and had a huge National Championship game falling this far? Because the production at Bama never matched the hype. Didn't come close. And no matter how adamant fans were that it was Nick Saban's fault, the fact remains that if OJ was good enough he would've shown it.
Pitts may break the trend, but he's more WR than TE based on how he's used and where he lines up. He's got a opposing a CB1 or CB2 covering him damn near every play it seems.
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Re: OJ Howard
Gonzo, Winlsow, and Ditka.
But the GOAT was a 2nd round TE and Gates (undrafted), Kelce (3rd round), Sharpe (7th round), Kittle (5th round) were all later round picks.
Re: OJ Howard
Thanks, I couldn't think of any in recent memory. Although I'm old enough to remember 1997 since it was my senior yr of HS.uscbucsfan wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:03 pmGonzo, Winlsow, and Ditka.
But the GOAT was a 2nd round TE and Gates (undrafted), Kelce (3rd round), Sharpe (7th round), Kittle (5th round) were all later round picks.
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Re: OJ Howard
In a way, I think Gronk poisoned the thought process on Tight Ends. Everybody saw what he was doing in NE and thought, "I want one of those."
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Re: OJ Howard
Dread wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:52 pmThat may be true, but the position value of a TE was also a factor. Same reason Dalvin Cook and Joe Mixon fell to round 2 in that same draft class. Point being, what TE has gone top 10, or even top 20 historically that was worth that high of a pick?King Bootz wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:23 pm IMO Jason Licht was the only GM who didn't realize this. Again OJ was projected as a top 5 pick in mock drafts. Top 10 at the latest. He fell to 19. That should've been a red flag IMO. Why is a 6-6 250lbs TE that runs a 4.5 and had a huge National Championship game falling this far? Because the production at Bama never matched the hype. Didn't come close. And no matter how adamant fans were that it was Nick Saban's fault, the fact remains that if OJ was good enough he would've shown it.
Pitts may break the trend, but he's more WR than TE based on how he's used and where he lines up. He's got a opposing a CB1 or CB2 covering him damn near every play it seems.
Joe Mixon fell because the video of him punching that women was released just a few months prior.
Re: OJ Howard
Those are the guys who are really special.
Derrick Brooks did that. "I want a linebacker who covers like a safety and can run sideline-to-sideline!"
Warren Sapp did that. "I want a three tech who can disrupt the entire offense with his quickness and agility!"
Ronde did that. "I want an inside corner who can jam slot receivers, tackle, blitz, and has zone radar."
Gronk did that. "I want an NBA Power Forward who's a violent blocker and has soft hands at tight end!"
When people say "Generational" that's REALLY what it means - guys who change what we look for at their positions. Some other ones from my lifetime would include Marshall Faulk, Larry Allen, Aaron Donald, lots of others.
"So let's get to the point
Let's roll another joint
And let's head on down the road
There's somewhere I got to go..."
Let's roll another joint
And let's head on down the road
There's somewhere I got to go..."
Re: OJ Howard
MJW wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:04 amThose are the guys who are really special.
Derrick Brooks did that. "I want a linebacker who covers like a safety and can run sideline-to-sideline!"
Warren Sapp did that. "I want a three tech who can disrupt the entire offense with his quickness and agility!"
Ronde did that. "I want an inside corner who can jam slot receivers, tackle, blitz, and has zone radar."
Gronk did that. "I want an NBA Power Forward who's a violent blocker and has soft hands at tight end!"
When people say "Generational" that's REALLY what it means - guys who change what we look for at their positions. Some other ones from my lifetime would include Marshall Faulk, Larry Allen, Aaron Donald, lots of others.
Warren Moon for the win.
Re: OJ Howard
Look up Alabama Hall of Famer's and most of them are coach's. Go figure.