OJ Howard

[Buc2]

Was OJ even active Sunday?

$6 million man played 6 snaps

I swear, I never even noticed.

[King Bootz]

$6 million man played 6 snaps

I swear, I never even noticed.

I didn't notice until I saw the snap counts for the game.

What sticks out to me more is that Breshad Perriman is basically our 3rd WR now. He had 59 snaps this game, 1 more than Gronk even. Tyler Johnson only had 9, Scotty had 4. Are we so ready to crown TJ as the next Chris Godwin?

[Primeminister]

I swear, I never even noticed.

I didn't notice until I saw the snap counts for the game.

What sticks out to me more is that Breshad Perriman is basically our 3rd WR now. He had 59 snaps this game, 1 more than Gronk even. Tyler Johnson only had 9, Scotty had 4. Are we so ready to crown TJ as the next Chris Godwin?

Nope. Godwin looked like Godwin even as a rookie. TJ hasn’t shown that ability and it’s obviously not due to lack of snaps.

[Buc2]

I didn't notice until I saw the snap counts for the game.

What sticks out to me more is that Breshad Perriman is basically our 3rd WR now. He had 59 snaps this game, 1 more than Gronk even. Tyler Johnson only had 9, Scotty had 4. Are we so ready to crown TJ as the next Chris Godwin?

Nope. Godwin looked like Godwin even as a rookie. TJ hasn’t shown that ability and it’s obviously not due to lack of snaps.

Maybe they just wanted Perriman to get in some work to help him get up to speed with AB out at least another 2 games. I mean, that seems dumb to me, but I got nothing else. lol

[uscbucsfan]

I didn't notice until I saw the snap counts for the game.

What sticks out to me more is that Breshad Perriman is basically our 3rd WR now. He had 59 snaps this game, 1 more than Gronk even. Tyler Johnson only had 9, Scotty had 4. Are we so ready to crown TJ as the next Chris Godwin?

Nope. Godwin looked like Godwin even as a rookie. TJ hasn’t shown that ability and it’s obviously not due to lack of snaps.

I'm not a fan of TJ like some here. He seemingly runs the wrong route too often, turns the wrong way, and has had his share of drops.

I am surprised by us not using Scotty, but we've condensed our passing game greatly...and maybe that's why. I read an article about how with each game our yards per attempt gets smaller and has been that way since the Bears game. Brady is checking down at a quicker rate and we're also calling more short passes.

[13F11B]

I will be honest. Brate is not the blocker that Gronk is but he appears to be the heir apparent in the receiving game. OJ Howard looks to be a better blocker than Brate but has not stood out as a receiver at all. I would, at this point, keep Brate and move on from OJ.

[Dread]

Nope. Godwin looked like Godwin even as a rookie. TJ hasn’t shown that ability and it’s obviously not due to lack of snaps.

Maybe they just wanted Perriman to get in some work to help him get up to speed with AB out at least another 2 games. I mean, that seems dumb to me, but I got nothing else. lol

TJ also doesn't have the explosiveness/speed that BA wants in his WR3. But why we're seeing Perriman instead of Miller is interesting.

If Godwin misses a game we'd see more of TJ as he is the primary back-up to Godwin in that role that Hines Ward, Larry Fitz, and now Godwin fill for Arians.

But TJ isn't Godwin and likely never will be in terms of talent or production. That said, of Godwin gets away in FA this offseason TJ is the next man up on the current roster to help fill that void.

[Dread]

I will be honest. Brate is not the blocker that Gronk is but he appears to be the heir apparent in the receiving game. OJ Howard looks to be a better blocker than Brate but has not stood out as a receiver at all. I would, at this point, keep Brate and move on from OJ.

Brate is under contract next season and loves the Tampa area, so he might even take a bit of pay cut if asked (providing his BFF Ryan Griffin is kept around).

Howard is a UFA this offseason and he's the TE3 for us. In 4+ years Howard has not shown the potential to be a dependable TE1 for team imo. Licht has repeatedly shown the willingness to cut bait on high picks that don't work out. So I don't think we even make an offer to Howard unless there is no market for him in Free Agency and we could get him back on the cheap.

[Kress]

I am surprised by us not using Scotty, but we've condensed our passing game greatly...and maybe that's why. I read an article about how with each game our yards per attempt gets smaller and has been that way since the Bears game. Brady is checking down at a quicker rate and we're also calling more short passes.

Teams are using a lot of deep safety help to try to shut down Evans and Godwin, so sending Scotty out on another deep route isn't really in the cards. It also means Brady is perfectly happy to play Mr. Checkdown all day long. As a general theme, at least.

[Primeminister]

Nope. Godwin looked like Godwin even as a rookie. TJ hasn’t shown that ability and it’s obviously not due to lack of snaps.

I'm not a fan of TJ like some here. He seemingly runs the wrong route too often, turns the wrong way, and has had his share of drops.

I am surprised by us not using Scotty, but we've condensed our passing game greatly...and maybe that's why. I read an article about how with each game our yards per attempt gets smaller and has been that way since the Bears game. Brady is checking down at a quicker rate and we're also calling more short passes.

Tom is checking down more because Lenny has become a positive target that can get yards.

[uscbucsfan]

I'm not a fan of TJ like some here. He seemingly runs the wrong route too often, turns the wrong way, and has had his share of drops.

I am surprised by us not using Scotty, but we've condensed our passing game greatly...and maybe that's why. I read an article about how with each game our yards per attempt gets smaller and has been that way since the Bears game. Brady is checking down at a quicker rate and we're also calling more short passes.

Tom is checking down more because Lenny has become a positive target that can get yards.

I didn't say it was a bad thing, but I'm guessing that's a reason (coupled with his injury) on why Miller hasn't been utilized more.

[CannonFire]

I'd have no problem with Howard as our 3rd TE next year if he'll take the veteran minimum.

[BLT]

I like OJ Howard, and if I ever see him out and about I'll be happy to buy the man a beer, thank him for being on the team, and talk ball.

But I think his time on our team is done after this year. We are going to have to make some hard choices with our available cap space next off-season, and OJ Howard is likely not a top priority.

I wouldn't even consider him one of the hard choices.

[Defense5599]

I'd have no problem with Howard as our 3rd TE next year if he'll take the veteran minimum.

I agree, but some team will pay him starter's money.

[MJW]

I'd have no problem with Howard as our 3rd TE next year if he'll take the veteran minimum.

I would offer him more than that. He's a better than average blocker with two years in the offense. It would make sense to me to bring him back and let him compete on those terms, with the slim hope he can ever become a consistent passing threat.

But, chances are, some GM who loved him in the draft 5 years ago will look at his measurables and highlights and offer him "real" money. There are a lot of totally mediocre tight ends starting in the league right now.

[King Bootz]

I'd have no problem with Howard as our 3rd TE next year if he'll take the veteran minimum.

I would offer him more than that. He's a better than average blocker with two years in the offense. It would make sense to me to bring him back and let him compete on those terms, with the slim hope he can ever become a consistent passing threat.

But, chances are, some GM who loved him in the draft 5 years ago will look at his measurables and highlights and offer him "real" money. There are a lot of totally mediocre tight ends starting in the league right now.

I don't see that happening at all. 5 years is a very long time in the NFL. Who would this mystery GM be?

Plus keep in mind OJ was a projected top 5, top 10 pick that fell to 19. It's not as if that draft was particularly deep at other key positions. I think honestly Jason Licht was a party of 1 on the OJ Howard 1st round list. Maybe Cleveland takes him over Njoku but even he fell to 29.

Additionally after adding Gronk you'd have to believe OJ would've been gone via some GM offering a trade we couldn't refuse. I don't buy that BA was ever looking to run all of these multiple TE looks or was ever interested in having the best TE room in football. The last 2 seasons have been evidence of this. Brate & OJ have largely been non-factors.

Best bet, OJ walks via FA, gets a 1 or 2 year deal elsewhere and we get a better shot at getting one of those comp picks you obsess over.

[Swashbuckler]

I'd have no problem with Howard as our 3rd TE next year if he'll take the veteran minimum.

I agree, but some team will pay him starter's money.

That would be remarkable considering I don't think we'd even get a 7th for him

[Dread]

I'd have no problem with Howard as our 3rd TE next year if he'll take the veteran minimum.

I agree, but some team will pay him starter's money.

Unless you're one of the elite TE's in the NFL you don't get paid very well as a TE compared to most other "starters"

Only 7 TE's make over $10M/yr on their current contract.

Cam Brate is the 18th highest paid TE at $6M/yr, Gronk is 12th at $8M/yr. That's using the AAV of their contract.

As an example Gerald Everett, who is a very athletic player that was drafted and played with the Rams before signing with Seattle in free agency last season where he signed a 1yr - $6M deal.

I don't think OJ Howard will even get that in FA. Teams know he has bad hands and thus can't be relied upon as a TE1.

So for a team that runs alot of 2 TE sets he may have some value in that TE2 role. But we're talking around $3M/yr imo, maybe $4M if a team believes in him.

But I don't expect a very robust market for OJ Howard and TEs already don't make much relatively speaking.

[CannonFire]

I'd have no problem with Howard as our 3rd TE next year if he'll take the veteran minimum.

I agree, but some team will pay him starter's money.

Then he can go, fine with me.

It'll be interesting how the Bucs attack the TE position next year. Brate will be on the books for a $7.25M cap hit. Of that hit, $6.8M is cash. The Bucs could just cut him and get hit with a $1.9M dead cap number which would still save then $5.2M in cap space.

Howard's contract is up as is Gronk's, but Gronk has a lot of voidable years on his deal which will tag the Bucs with a $5M cap hit 3 weeks after the season. I'm not sure how that's going to work. I mean, the Bucs could release Brate and let Howard and Gronk walk. With the cap hits and cap relief, the next result would be no cap hit... but we'd have no TE's.

On the surface, that's a bad thing, but I'm not sure how much. They could just give Gronk a new 2-year $25M deal and let him ride off in the sunset after the 2023 season. Go back and re-sign Brate for 3 years at $10M (a Mo Alie-Cox type deal), then go draft a TE and let someone invest in Howard.

[King Bootz]

Why pay OJ Howard anything? He's not a good football player. Hardly mediocre. Let him walk and let some other team try to bank off of the 9 years of "potential" he's had.

[Snake]

I’m ready to move on from OJ. I think he will find a place in the NFL for a while yet. But I’m ready for some new blood.

[acmillis]

Why pay OJ Howard anything? He's not a good football player. Hardly mediocre. Let him walk and let some other team try to bank off of the 9 years of "potential" he's had.

These were my thoughts on Carnell Williams, Michael Clayton, etc. They're first rounders, so a lot of times, they'll get the extended benefit of the doubt that after five years, they'll miraculously change and live up to their high draft pick status....it doesn't happen that way.

After 5 years, a player is who he is.

[Kress]

I mean, true, but not ALWAYS true. Terry Bradshaw famously threw for more interceptions than touchdowns in each of his first 5 seasons. He now sits in the Hall with 4 rings.

[King Bootz]

Why pay OJ Howard anything? He's not a good football player. Hardly mediocre. Let him walk and let some other team try to bank off of the 9 years of "potential" he's had.

These were my thoughts on Carnell Williams, Michael Clayton, etc. They're first rounders, so a lot of times, they'll get the extended benefit of the doubt that after five years, they'll miraculously change and live up to their high draft pick status....it doesn't happen that way.

After 5 years, a player is who he is.

Exactly right. Licht did the same thing when he exercised Hargreaves option. To some degree, same thing occured when exercised Howard's option as well.

[Dread]

I think OJ Howard is another classic case of a player who is overhyped based on their size, athleticism, and program they came from.

With OJ he had all those boxes checked, great physical talent and size along with great pedigree.

What the scouts all missed was if he was a good football player, specifically a good TE since that is the position he played.

He's just not a good receiver of the football. Catching the football doesn't look natural for OJ the way it does with most NFL TEs/WRs. He's got what baseball and football scouts/fans call 'stone hands', or the opposite of having 'soft hands' like a you see with a middle infielder in baseball or a good pass catcher in football.

Beyond that despite being a bright guy he doesn't seem to be a smart football player when it comes to the needed on the fly adjustments required to excel when running routes. Like where and when to break a route off vs zone to find the soft spot, understanding the leverage your defender is using and overcoming it to get open, etc.

For those reasons he'll never be the productive TE1 his talents warrants, I think teams know this by now and why he won't be highly sought after in free agency.

But if we're talking OJ Howard as a TE2 for $2-3M/yr, I wouldn't protest that move. I just think the Bucs are ready to move on and a new place might be best for Howard also.

[King Bootz]

IMO Jason Licht was the only GM who didn't realize this. Again OJ was projected as a top 5 pick in mock drafts. Top 10 at the latest. He fell to 19. That should've been a red flag IMO. Why is a 6-6 250lbs TE that runs a 4.5 and had a huge National Championship game falling this far? Because the production at Bama never matched the hype. Didn't come close. And no matter how adamant fans were that it was Nick Saban's fault, the fact remains that if OJ was good enough he would've shown it.

[Dread]

IMO Jason Licht was the only GM who didn't realize this. Again OJ was projected as a top 5 pick in mock drafts. Top 10 at the latest. He fell to 19. That should've been a red flag IMO. Why is a 6-6 250lbs TE that runs a 4.5 and had a huge National Championship game falling this far? Because the production at Bama never matched the hype. Didn't come close. And no matter how adamant fans were that it was Nick Saban's fault, the fact remains that if OJ was good enough he would've shown it.

That may be true, but the position value of a TE was also a factor. Same reason Dalvin Cook and Joe Mixon fell to round 2 in that same draft class. Point being, what TE has gone top 10, or even top 20 historically that was worth that high of a pick?

Pitts may break the trend, but he's more WR than TE based on how he's used and where he lines up. He's got a opposing a CB1 or CB2 covering him damn near every play it seems.

[uscbucsfan]

Point being, what TE has gone top 10, or even top 20 historically that was worth that high of a pick?

Gonzo, Winlsow, and Ditka.

But the GOAT was a 2nd round TE and Gates (undrafted), Kelce (3rd round), Sharpe (7th round), Kittle (5th round) were all later round picks.

[Dread]

Point being, what TE has gone top 10, or even top 20 historically that was worth that high of a pick?

Gonzo, Winlsow, and Ditka.

But the GOAT was a 2nd round TE and Gates (undrafted), Kelce (3rd round), Sharpe (7th round), Kittle (5th round) were all later round picks.

Thanks, I couldn't think of any in recent memory. Although I'm old enough to remember 1997 since it was my senior yr of HS.

[uscbucsfan]

Thanks, I couldn't think of any in recent memory. Although I'm old enough to remember 1997 since it was my senior yr of HS.

I just googled great TEs in the 1st round, lol.

[Kress]

In a way, I think Gronk poisoned the thought process on Tight Ends. Everybody saw what he was doing in NE and thought, "I want one of those."

[accidentw8ing2happen]

IMO Jason Licht was the only GM who didn't realize this. Again OJ was projected as a top 5 pick in mock drafts. Top 10 at the latest. He fell to 19. That should've been a red flag IMO. Why is a 6-6 250lbs TE that runs a 4.5 and had a huge National Championship game falling this far? Because the production at Bama never matched the hype. Didn't come close. And no matter how adamant fans were that it was Nick Saban's fault, the fact remains that if OJ was good enough he would've shown it.

That may be true, but the position value of a TE was also a factor. Same reason Dalvin Cook and Joe Mixon fell to round 2 in that same draft class. Point being, what TE has gone top 10, or even top 20 historically that was worth that high of a pick?

Pitts may break the trend, but he's more WR than TE based on how he's used and where he lines up. He's got a opposing a CB1 or CB2 covering him damn near every play it seems.

Joe Mixon fell because the video of him punching that women was released just a few months prior.

[MJW]

In a way, I think Gronk poisoned the thought process on Tight Ends. Everybody saw what he was doing in NE and thought, "I want one of those."

Those are the guys who are really special.

Derrick Brooks did that. "I want a linebacker who covers like a safety and can run sideline-to-sideline!"

Warren Sapp did that. "I want a three tech who can disrupt the entire offense with his quickness and agility!"

Ronde did that. "I want an inside corner who can jam slot receivers, tackle, blitz, and has zone radar."

Gronk did that. "I want an NBA Power Forward who's a violent blocker and has soft hands at tight end!"

When people say "Generational" that's REALLY what it means - guys who change what we look for at their positions. Some other ones from my lifetime would include Marshall Faulk, Larry Allen, Aaron Donald, lots of others.

[Kress]

In a way, I think Gronk poisoned the thought process on Tight Ends. Everybody saw what he was doing in NE and thought, "I want one of those."

Those are the guys who are really special.

Derrick Brooks did that. "I want a linebacker who covers like a safety and can run sideline-to-sideline!"

Warren Sapp did that. "I want a three tech who can disrupt the entire offense with his quickness and agility!"

Ronde did that. "I want an inside corner who can jam slot receivers, tackle, blitz, and has zone radar."

Gronk did that. "I want an NBA Power Forward who's a violent blocker and has soft hands at tight end!"

When people say "Generational" that's REALLY what it means - guys who change what we look for at their positions. Some other ones from my lifetime would include Marshall Faulk, Larry Allen, Aaron Donald, lots of others.

Warren Moon for the win.

[mdb1958]

Look up Alabama Hall of Famer's and most of them are coach's. Go figure.