***Official Free Agency Thread***

[13F11B]

Bootz wrote: "Again what metric is being used to come to the conclusion that our trio was the most dominant or even close to it?"

Answer: The rose colored glasses metric.

So basically this is the answer. Just a casual fan thing

A casual fan thing is still much greater than a Bootz thing. They have that going for them.

[Bootz]

So basically this is the answer. Just a casual fan thing

Is that frowned upon?

When it's not factual it should be.

By your account if someone were to say "Calijah Kancey is the most dominant DL in NFL history by far" there shouldn't be any push back whatsoever because it's just a casual thing to say.

[Grahamburn]

Is that frowned upon?

When it's not factual it should be.

How do you determine whether or not it's factual? Just the statistics you posted? Those Colts teams didn't win a Super Bowl. Neither did the Bengals team you referenced. Dominance isn't always measured on the stat sheet. Check yo sheet.

[Bootz]

When it's not factual it should be.

How do you determine whether or not it's factual? Just the statistics you posted? Those Colts teams didn't win a Super Bowl. Neither did the Bengals team you referenced. Dominance isn't always measured on the stat sheet. Check yo sheet.

You have a very easy time telling me what he didn't mean and what "dominance" isn't but you're clueless as to explain the basis of the point that was made. Sounds like you're way in over your head.

[BucsNBills]

So basically this is the answer. Just a casual fan thing

Is that frowned upon?

Bootz thinks he's some sort of advanced football savant and doesn't view himself as a "casual fan".

It's cringe behavior but it's what we've dealt with for like nearly two decades now so I don't see it changing any time soon.

[13F11B]

Is that frowned upon?

Bootz thinks he's some sort of advanced football savant and doesn't view himself as a "casual fan".

It's cringe behavior but it's what we've dealt with for like nearly two decades now so I don't see it changing any time soon.

In certain moods Bootz would argue about the definition of the word it.

[Selmon Rules]

Bootz wrote: "Again what metric is being used to come to the conclusion that our trio was the most dominant or even close to it?"

Answer: The rose colored glasses metric.

So basically this is the answer. Just a casual fan thing

It's a message board, of course it's a casual fan thing.

Maybe I assume too much, I like my football but I have a life.... I always just assume that is the norm

Is that frowned upon?

When it's not factual it should be.

By your account if someone were to say "Calijah Kancey is the most dominant DL in NFL history by far" there shouldn't be any push back whatsoever because it's just a casual thing to say.

If that someone is a casual fan on a message board then yes, it's a casual thing to say

[Grahamburn]

We’re all casual fans ironically enough. That’s why we’re here.

[Doctor]

I'm a professional fan, thank you very much.

[Grahamburn]

I'm a professional fan, thank you very much.

PhD in fandom.

[Bootz]

Tristin Wirfs and/or Antoine Winfield Jr should have one of these type of tweets soon after the draft.

[Grahamburn]

Good lord. Draft your pass rushers.

[Bootz]

Good lord. Draft your pass rushers.

Eventually you gotta pay em or let em walk. As with any position.

[Bootz]

Only our own Antoine Winfield Jr & the Bengals Tee Higgins have not been extended.

[Snake]

[Bootz]

[acmillis]

They're smart to do that deal now.

He's probably the best WR2 in the NFL, but damn, 25M/year for a #2 is a lot, but I guess that's the market these days.

[Bootz]

They're smart to do that deal now.

He's probably the best WR2 in the NFL, but damn, 25M/year for a #2 is a lot, but I guess that's the market these days.

That's the new money portion. He still has 2024 on his rookie deal as well as the 5th year option. The Eagles also exercised that option and tacked on 3 more years. He's under contract with them through 2028. So you're right its a very smart deal to do now.

[Central_Buc]

Jets bringing an old look back.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com ... hotos/amp/

[Phantom]

I think the white helmet with the Jets logo looks good, but maybe they're saving that for an alternate in 2025.

[Doctor]

Love Smith. Well earned. Cheap in the long run.

Mic to Waddle and Chase.

[uscbucsfan1]

They're smart to do that deal now.

He's probably the best WR2 in the NFL, but damn, 25M/year for a #2 is a lot, but I guess that's the market these days.

Godwin is making 27.5 against the cap this year and Smith is a better player.

It's absolutely the market.

[CannonFire]

They're smart to do that deal now.

He's probably the best WR2 in the NFL, but damn, 25M/year for a #2 is a lot, but I guess that's the market these days.

Godwin is making 27.5 against the cap this year and Smith is a better player.

It's absolutely the market.

AAV and cap hit are two different things. Godwin's contract at the time he signed it, had an AAV of $20M. Prior to that contract and prior to the ACL injury, league-wide, he was thought of as a co-#1, not as a #2.

Smith may be a better player, but at the time that Godwin got his deal, he was considered better at that point in time than what Smith is now.

[Snake]

Smith is a #1 on most NFL teams

[CannonFire]

Smith is a #1 on most NFL teams

I thought that coming out of college... after 3 years in the league and seeing every game, I'm not totally convinced. I think he could be a #1 on a few, but not sure on how many. I believe the Eagles think that as well, which is why a team that was a run-first team, went out and traded a 1st and a 3rd for a #1 WR. If you're expecting to be a run-first/heavy team, you don't need multiple #1 WR's... you only need one. If you have that one, you're not going to trade 2 premium draft picks and then pay up (cash), to go get one.

[Bootz]

Godwin is making 27.5 against the cap this year and Smith is a better player.

It's absolutely the market.

AAV and cap hit are two different things. Godwin's contract at the time he signed it, had an AAV of $20M. Prior to that contract and prior to the ACL injury, league-wide, he was thought of as a co-#1, not as a #2.

Smith may be a better player, but at the time that Godwin got his deal, he was considered better at that point in time than what Smith is now.

Seriously beg to differ there. The idea that Godwin was a "co-#1" was shared only in the Bucs fanbase.

Smith through 3 seasons:

240 catches 3178 yards 19 TDs

Godwin after 3 seasons

174 catches 2680 yards 17 TDs

Smith also has 2 straight 1000 yards seasons through 3 years while Godwin didn't get his 2nd until year 5.

[CannonFire]

AAV and cap hit are two different things. Godwin's contract at the time he signed it, had an AAV of $20M. Prior to that contract and prior to the ACL injury, league-wide, he was thought of as a co-#1, not as a #2.

Smith may be a better player, but at the time that Godwin got his deal, he was considered better at that point in time than what Smith is now.

Seriously beg to differ there. The idea that Godwin was a "co-#1" was shared only in the Bucs fanbase.

Smith through 3 seasons:

240 catches 3178 yards 19 TDs

Godwin after 3 seasons

174 catches 2680 yards 17 TDs

Smith also has 2 straight 1000 yards seasons through 3 years while Godwin didn't get his 2nd until year 5.

Cool, now do Smith and Antonio Brown's first 3 years... let me know how that turns out.

You can beg all you want, but the national sentiment following the '19 season (among those on NFL Radio, coaches, GM's, and such), Godwin was thought of as a #1 WR. At the completion of that season, the talk at the time was that if the Bucs didn't re-sign him, teams would line up to pay him #1 money. Of course, he tore his ACL that year and just signed the franchise tag. After the deal Godwin signed in 2020, his 2021 cash value ranked 7th in the NFL. That's a WR1. No one thought it was a bad deal.

Smith's catch rate has never been higher than 55%, Godwin's has never been below 58% until last year. Even in 2020, when we had Antonio Brown & Gronk, a new QB, and no offseason, Godwin still averaged 70 yards per game, Smith's best season when he only had 1 guy to share the targets with, not 3, was 70.4. Godwin commands the ball, Smith just gets the leftovers.

Without that ACL tear in 2020, Godwin is either making WR1 money here or on another team. I don't think that's the case with DeVonta Smith. People here in the Philly market don't even think that Smith is WR1.

[Bootz]

Seriously beg to differ there. The idea that Godwin was a "co-#1" was shared only in the Bucs fanbase.

Smith through 3 seasons:

240 catches 3178 yards 19 TDs

Godwin after 3 seasons

174 catches 2680 yards 17 TDs

Smith also has 2 straight 1000 yards seasons through 3 years while Godwin didn't get his 2nd until year 5.

Cool, now do Smith and Antonio Brown's first 3 years... let me know how that turns out.

You can beg all you want, but the national sentiment following the '19 season (among those on NFL Radio, coaches, GM's, and such), Godwin was thought of as a #1 WR. At the completion of that season, the talk at the time was that if the Bucs didn't re-sign him, teams would line up to pay him #1 money. Of course, he tore his ACL that year and just signed the franchise tag. After the deal Godwin signed in 2020, his 2021 cash value ranked 7th in the NFL. That's a WR1. No one thought it was a bad deal.

Smith's catch rate has never been higher than 55%, Godwin's has never been below 58% until last year. Even in 2020, when we had Antonio Brown & Gronk, a new QB, and no offseason, Godwin still averaged 70 yards per game, Smith's best season when he only had 1 guy to share the targets with, not 3, was 70.4. Godwin commands the ball, Smith just gets the leftovers.

Without that ACL tear in 2020, Godwin is either making WR1 money here or on another team. I don't think that's the case with DeVonta Smith. People here in the Philly market don't even think that Smith is WR1.

You didn't even include AB when you said Godwin was better through 3 years than Smith. Now that you were proven wrong you want to move the goal posts? As long as you admit it, we can play that game.

The numbers beg to differ. Smith has also never had fewer than 100 targets in a season while Godwin has 3 times been targeted less than 100 times. That suggests 1 of them has a harder time getting open, which Godwin struggles with at times.

[CannonFire]

Cool, now do Smith and Antonio Brown's first 3 years... let me know how that turns out.

You can beg all you want, but the national sentiment following the '19 season (among those on NFL Radio, coaches, GM's, and such), Godwin was thought of as a #1 WR. At the completion of that season, the talk at the time was that if the Bucs didn't re-sign him, teams would line up to pay him #1 money. Of course, he tore his ACL that year and just signed the franchise tag. After the deal Godwin signed in 2020, his 2021 cash value ranked 7th in the NFL. That's a WR1. No one thought it was a bad deal.

Smith's catch rate has never been higher than 55%, Godwin's has never been below 58% until last year. Even in 2020, when we had Antonio Brown & Gronk, a new QB, and no offseason, Godwin still averaged 70 yards per game, Smith's best season when he only had 1 guy to share the targets with, not 3, was 70.4. Godwin commands the ball, Smith just gets the leftovers.

Without that ACL tear in 2020, Godwin is either making WR1 money here or on another team. I don't think that's the case with DeVonta Smith. People here in the Philly market don't even think that Smith is WR1.

You didn't even include AB when you said Godwin was better through 3 years than Smith. Now that you were proven wrong you want to move the goal posts? As long as you admit it, we can play that game.

The numbers beg to differ. Smith has also never had fewer than 100 targets in a season while Godwin has 3 times been targeted less than 100 times. That suggests 1 of them has a harder time getting open, which Godwin struggles with at times.

Incorrect. What I did was, show you that your intimation that Godwin wasn't thought of as a WR1 (when he was), based on their first 3 years of production was faulty. I showed how a cumulative total of 3 years doesn't always give you the full picture.

The word on Godwin, coming out of college was that he was raw and might need a year or two to get going. Penn State isn't really known as a juggernaut for WR products. So no, the number of targets do not suggest that at all. Why, because in 2019, when he officially took over the role of the starting receiver opposite Evans, he had 121 targets in 14 games. DeVonta Smith needed 17 games to reach that number. Guess he couldn't get separation either. In 2019, Godwin was #2 in the NFL in yards after catch among WRs (finished 6 yards behind Michael Thomas). Notice, total yards after catch, not per game. Meaning, he did in 14 games what only 1 other WR could manage in 16. Kinda hard to do that without separation, don't ya think?

Godwin may struggle at times, now, getting open... post ACL, but that problem didn't exist pre ACL. When Licht gave him that new deal, the hope was he'd be back to 2019 form. That doesn't look like that's happening, but that contract was signed 4 years ago, not 4 days ago.

[Bootz]

You didn't even include AB when you said Godwin was better through 3 years than Smith. Now that you were proven wrong you want to move the goal posts? As long as you admit it, we can play that game.

The numbers beg to differ. Smith has also never had fewer than 100 targets in a season while Godwin has 3 times been targeted less than 100 times. That suggests 1 of them has a harder time getting open, which Godwin struggles with at times.

Incorrect. What I did was, show you that your intimation that Godwin wasn't thought of as a WR1 (when he was), based on their first 3 years of production was faulty. I showed how a cumulative total of 3 years doesn't always give you the full picture.

The word on Godwin, coming out of college was that he was raw and might need a year or two to get going. Penn State isn't really known as a juggernaut for WR products. So no, the number of targets do not suggest that at all. Why, because in 2019, when he officially took over the role of the starting receiver opposite Evans, he had 121 targets in 14 games. DeVonta Smith needed 17 games to reach that number. Guess he couldn't get separation either. In 2019, Godwin was #2 in the NFL in yards after catch among WRs (finished 6 yards behind Michael Thomas). Notice, total yards after catch, not per game. Meaning, he did in 14 games what only 1 other WR could manage in 16. Kinda hard to do that without separation, don't ya think?

Godwin may struggle at times, now, getting open... post ACL, but that problem didn't exist pre ACL. When Licht gave him that new deal, the hope was he'd be back to 2019 form. That doesn't look like that's happening, but that contract was signed 4 years ago, not 4 days ago.

WHAT?! LMAO! What you did was refute your own point. Smith has ONLY played 3 years yet you made a case that after 3 years in their respective careers, Godwin was thought of as a better player...Your words

Smith may be a better player, but at the time that Godwin got his deal, he was considered better at that point in time than what Smith is now.

What Smith is now is a WR that's played 3 years total. How can you possibly say a guy who's played more is automatically better? By your logic, you're taking Godwin over Jamaar Chase, Jaylen Waddle, Smith because they've only played 3 years and you don't really have a good picture.

[CannonFire]

Incorrect. What I did was, show you that your intimation that Godwin wasn't thought of as a WR1 (when he was), based on their first 3 years of production was faulty. I showed how a cumulative total of 3 years doesn't always give you the full picture.

The word on Godwin, coming out of college was that he was raw and might need a year or two to get going. Penn State isn't really known as a juggernaut for WR products. So no, the number of targets do not suggest that at all. Why, because in 2019, when he officially took over the role of the starting receiver opposite Evans, he had 121 targets in 14 games. DeVonta Smith needed 17 games to reach that number. Guess he couldn't get separation either. In 2019, Godwin was #2 in the NFL in yards after catch among WRs (finished 6 yards behind Michael Thomas). Notice, total yards after catch, not per game. Meaning, he did in 14 games what only 1 other WR could manage in 16. Kinda hard to do that without separation, don't ya think?

Godwin may struggle at times, now, getting open... post ACL, but that problem didn't exist pre ACL. When Licht gave him that new deal, the hope was he'd be back to 2019 form. That doesn't look like that's happening, but that contract was signed 4 years ago, not 4 days ago.

WHAT?! LMAO! What you did was refute your own point. Smith has ONLY played 3 years yet you made a case that after 3 years in their respective careers, Godwin was thought of as a better player...Your words

Smith may be a better player, but at the time that Godwin got his deal, he was considered better at that point in time than what Smith is now.

What Smith is now is a WR that's played 3 years total. How can you possibly say a guy who's played more is automatically better? By your logic, you're taking Godwin over Jamaar Chase, Jaylen Waddle, Smith because they've only played 3 years and you don't really have a good picture.

I think you need to go back to the onset of my argument. It was stated that Godwin has a $27M cap hit... blah blah blah. I said that cap hit and AAV are 2 different things. I said that when Godwin signed his deal, it WAS (past tense... see, because it happened in the past), a deal that paid him like a #1 WR. So, things have changed. Since Godwin has torn his ACL, things have changed... that's why I say that at this point in time Smith may be better but that doesn't mean that DeVonta Smith is a #1WR. Again, Godwin signed his deal 4 years ago. When Smith starts getting his money from this contract, I'm willing to bet he's outside the top 20, where as Godwin was top 7.

[mdb1958]

You guys do realize it's the time of the year where we increase the amount of 4 year contracts, please wait on cancelling them.

[Bootz]

I wonder what Tyler Boyd's asking price is

[Bootz]

[Onthebrink]

WHAT?! LMAO! What you did was refute your own point. Smith has ONLY played 3 years yet you made a case that after 3 years in their respective careers, Godwin was thought of as a better player...Your words



What Smith is now is a WR that's played 3 years total. How can you possibly say a guy who's played more is automatically better? By your logic, you're taking Godwin over Jamaar Chase, Jaylen Waddle, Smith because they've only played 3 years and you don't really have a good picture.

I think you need to go back to the onset of my argument. It was stated that Godwin has a $27M cap hit... blah blah blah. I said that cap hit and AAV are 2 different things. I said that when Godwin signed his deal, it WAS (past tense... see, because it happened in the past), a deal that paid him like a #1 WR. So, things have changed. Since Godwin has torn his ACL, things have changed... that's why I say that at this point in time Smith may be better but that doesn't mean that DeVonta Smith is a #1WR. Again, Godwin signed his deal 4 years ago. When Smith starts getting his money from this contract, I'm willing to bet he's outside the top 20, where as Godwin was top 7.

It is not just about the ACL injury. Canales didn't use Godwin in the slot much and he was not getting screens the way that he used to. He went from over 60% of the time playing in the slot to low 30s in Canales offense. The Bucs also threw the ball a lot more with Winston and Brady. Brady had 35 games with the Bucs where he threw 40 or more passes. He went 19-16 in those games. Baker has only won 1 game in his entire career where he has thrown more than 40 passes. 0-4 with the Bucs last year. Even with Brady it is not a recipe for winning. Hopefully Coen will have better designed plays for Godwin that will lead to a higher success rate.

Smith had 104 targets,16 starts and 916 snaps his rookie season compared to 55, 2 starts and 446 snaps for Godwin. The gap closed somewhat in their sophomore seasons. 136 targets, 17 starts and 1,083 snaps for Smith and 95 targets, 5 starts and 717 snaps for Godwin. Godwin's third season he finished 3rd in receiving yards, 2nd in yards per game and 4th in TD. His 3rd season was much better than Smith's. Smith has been consistent his entire career however and Godwin was not. Smith has every capability to have a 1500 yard 10 TD season and def deserved to be paid.