Sooo.... Carolina?

[Selmon Rules]

So now, Carolina is offering 3 1st round picks and Christian McCaffrey for Deshaun Watson?

https://sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/report ... 06279.html

If I'm the Texans, I take that deal.

In a heartbeat....

[mdb1958]

I doubt the story. I also think the RB may have reached the land of health problems.

[Dread]

So now, Carolina is offering 3 1st round picks and Christian McCaffrey for Deshaun Watson?

https://sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/report ... 06279.html

If I'm the Texans, I take that deal.

From a team building/salary cap perspective I don't see how the Watson + CMC contracts together make much sense.

I'm a big a CMC fan and while I generally don't believe in paying a RB a big contract, CMC is a the type you would if you were so inclined.

But of you have an elite QB like Watson it's way smarter imo to go with the cheaper RB committee approach of 1st contract guys or cheap vets instead of 1 guy who costs 3-4x what the entire RB depth chart could. That way you can use that money on Oline or whatever else to protect Watson.

[uscbucsfan]

If I'm the Texans, I take that deal.

From a team building/salary cap perspective I don't see how the Watson + CMC contracts together make much sense.

I'm a big a CMC fan and while I generally don't believe in paying a RB a big contract, CMC is a the type you would if you were so inclined.

But of you have an elite QB like Watson it's way smarter imo to go with the cheaper RB committee approach of 1st contract guys or cheap vets instead of 1 guy who costs 3-4x what the entire RB depth chart could. That way you can use that money on Oline or whatever else to protect Watson.

CMC is the example people will use in why not to pay RBs big second contracts.

The Panthers tried to trade him in the offseason. I can't imagine teams would want that contract now.

[King Bootz]

It's as if people aren't paying attention to the NFL at all. All this talk about RBs not getting 2nd contracts doesn't translate to actual negotiating rooms. It's fan talk. Alvin Kamara. Derrick Henry. Joe Mixon. Dalvin Cook. Ezekiel Elliott. Aaron Jones. Need I continue?

Top RBs get paid and teams don't regret it. Fans might but it really doesn't matter. CMC was worth his deal. He's been injured over the last 2 seasons and it's unfortunate. But let's not pretend like players who touch the ball more than anyone except QBs & centers shouldn't get paid.

[uscbucsfan]

It's as if people aren't paying attention to the NFL at all. All this talk about RBs not getting 2nd contracts doesn't translate to actual negotiating rooms. It's fan talk. Alvin Kamara. Derrick Henry. Joe Mixon. Dalvin Cook. Ezekiel Elliott. Aaron Jones. Need I continue?

Top RBs get paid and teams don't regret it. Fans might but it really doesn't matter. CMC was worth his deal. He's been injured over the last 2 seasons and it's unfortunate. But let's not pretend like players who touch the ball more than anyone except QBs & centers shouldn't get paid.

They don't get paid as much as other positions outside of CMC, Kamara, and Zeke...despite tocuing the ball more than anyone outside of QBs and centers and CMC and Zeke are good examples of why.

Thanks for backing up my point.

[King Bootz]

It's as if people aren't paying attention to the NFL at all. All this talk about RBs not getting 2nd contracts doesn't translate to actual negotiating rooms. It's fan talk. Alvin Kamara. Derrick Henry. Joe Mixon. Dalvin Cook. Ezekiel Elliott. Aaron Jones. Need I continue?

Top RBs get paid and teams don't regret it. Fans might but it really doesn't matter. CMC was worth his deal. He's been injured over the last 2 seasons and it's unfortunate. But let's not pretend like players who touch the ball more than anyone except QBs & centers shouldn't get paid.

They don't get paid as much as other positions outside of CMC, Kamara, and Zeke...despite tocuing the ball more than anyone outside of QBs and centers and CMC and Zeke are good examples of why.

Thanks for backing up my point.

Reading is fundamental. TOP RBs get paid. There aren’t as many top backs as in years past because of how pass oriented the game has become. As a result, teams go with RBBC because they hope for RBs with different skills sets. Namely pass catching and pass pro.

The point you and others were making is completely different from that reality.

[uscbucsfan]

They don't get paid as much as other positions outside of CMC, Kamara, and Zeke...despite tocuing the ball more than anyone outside of QBs and centers and CMC and Zeke are good examples of why.

Thanks for backing up my point.

Reading is fundamental. TOP RBs get paid. There aren’t as many top backs as in years past because of how pass oriented the game has become. As a result, teams go with RBBC because they hope for RBs with different skills sets. Namely pass catching and pass pro.

The point you and others were making is completely different from that reality.

You should go look at RB contracts and see that my point is absolutely valid.

[mdb1958]

We broke him and everyone knows what ankle to go after.

[King Bootz]

Reading is fundamental. TOP RBs get paid. There aren’t as many top backs as in years past because of how pass oriented the game has become. As a result, teams go with RBBC because they hope for RBs with different skills sets. Namely pass catching and pass pro.

The point you and others were making is completely different from that reality.

You should go look at RB contracts and see that my point is absolutely valid.

The reasoning you give isn't valid. A lot of teams go RBBC because they want multiple backs who can specialize in a specific area. Not because big RB contracts hinder team building.

[Digital_Damage]

So this is what happens when their is very little to complain about with the Bucs... a last place divisional rival gets 5 pages.

[uscbucsfan]

You should go look at RB contracts and see that my point is absolutely valid.

The reasoning you give isn't valid. A lot of teams go RBBC because they want multiple backs who can specialize in a specific area. Not because big RB contracts hinder team building.

RBs make less money in the league and aren't drafted as high because teams feel that investment in blocking and RBBC is a better formula for success.

Many don't feel like RB is a position that demands high 2nd contracts due to wear and tear and the value of the position. This is shown around the league and with 2nd and 3rd contracts.

It's why Henry isn't making even top 15 money compared to WRs and why many felt CMC and Zeke's contracts were bad. Bell wanted to change that and failed.

You are agreeing with me, but still insist on arguing.

[King Bootz]

The reasoning you give isn't valid. A lot of teams go RBBC because they want multiple backs who can specialize in a specific area. Not because big RB contracts hinder team building.

RBs make less money in the league and aren't drafted as high because teams feel that investment in blocking and RBBC is a better formula for success.

Many don't feel like RB is a position that demands high 2nd contracts due to wear and tear and the value of the position. This is shown around the league and with 2nd and 3rd contracts.

It's why Henry isn't making even top 15 money compared to WRs and why many felt CMC and Zeke's contracts were bad. Bell wanted to change that and failed.

You are agreeing with me, but still insist on arguing.

Actually you insisted on arguing. You could've kept your original reply to me to yourself but you just had to disagree. I never approached you.

[uscbucsfan]

RBs make less money in the league and aren't drafted as high because teams feel that investment in blocking and RBBC is a better formula for success.

Many don't feel like RB is a position that demands high 2nd contracts due to wear and tear and the value of the position. This is shown around the league and with 2nd and 3rd contracts.

It's why Henry isn't making even top 15 money compared to WRs and why many felt CMC and Zeke's contracts were bad. Bell wanted to change that and failed.

You are agreeing with me, but still insist on arguing.

Actually you insisted on arguing. You could've kept your original reply to me to yourself but you just had to disagree. I never approached you.

This is Bootz for, "you win"

[kaimaru]

It's as if people aren't paying attention to the NFL at all. All this talk about RBs not getting 2nd contracts doesn't translate to actual negotiating rooms. It's fan talk. Alvin Kamara. Derrick Henry. Joe Mixon. Dalvin Cook. Ezekiel Elliott. Aaron Jones. Need I continue?

Top RBs get paid and teams don't regret it. Fans might but it really doesn't matter. CMC was worth his deal. He's been injured over the last 2 seasons and it's unfortunate. But let's not pretend like players who touch the ball more than anyone except QBs & centers shouldn't get paid.

They don't get paid as much as other positions outside of CMC, Kamara, and Zeke...despite tocuing the ball more than anyone outside of QBs and centers and CMC and Zeke are good examples of why.

Thanks for backing up my point.

There are 5 getting WR1 money and 3 more not far off. There are more than you are admitting.

Millions per year
Alvin Kamara 12.8
Derrick Henry 12.5
Christian McCaffrey 12.5
Aaron Jones 12.0
Ezekiel Elliott 11.8
Dalvin Cook 10.7
Nick Chubb 10.0
Joe Mixon 9.6

[uscbucsfan]

They don't get paid as much as other positions outside of CMC, Kamara, and Zeke...despite tocuing the ball more than anyone outside of QBs and centers and CMC and Zeke are good examples of why.

Thanks for backing up my point.

There are 5 getting WR1 money and 3 more not far off. There are more than you are admitting.

Millions per year
Alvin Kamara 12.8
Derrick Henry 12.5
Christian McCaffrey 12.5
Aaron Jones 12.0
Ezekiel Elliott 11.8
Dalvin Cook 10.7
Nick Chubb 10.0
Joe Mixon 9.6

Per Over the cap...

McCaffrey, Zeke, and AK are the only RBs with contracts averaging over 15 million per year on their contract. Then there's a huge drop off.

There are are 17 WRs with more than 15 million average per year. Henry's average per year would make him the 20th highest paid receiver.

And CMCs contract balloons to over 17 million starting in 2023. AK's contract really isn't bad. The final bloated year is fake. CMC has a shit contract.

Edit: I didn't realize the Hopkins will make 52 mill in the next 2 years. The elite WR pay is even higher than I thought.

[MJW]

Don't give any RB a second contract.

You heard me.

I said as much when CMC got his.

Sometimes, you'll get burned that way. Henry and Kamara have earned theirs. More often than not, you'll prevent a CMC or Gurley situation.

[King Bootz]

Don't give any RB a second contract.

You heard me.

I said as much when CMC got his.

Sometimes, you'll get burned that way. Henry and Kamara have earned theirs. More often than not, you'll prevent a CMC or Gurley situation.

Keep your day/night job

[Dread]

Don't give any RB a second contract.

You heard me.

I said as much when CMC got his.

Sometimes, you'll get burned that way. Henry and Kamara have earned theirs. More often than not, you'll prevent a CMC or Gurley situation.

Let some other team pay them. Unless of course you have a young QB on a rookie deal or worse yet no franchise QB at all (Like the Saints and Panthers). In that case go ahead and pay a Kamara and CMC until you find your QB.

To me it's a "don't put all your eggs in one basket" approach.

With the salaries for QBs being north of $40m these days and the emphasis on passing it makes it tough from a team building perspective to pay one RB $15m/yr when you can combine 4 RBs and pay half of that without the stress of an injury (to your high priced RB) railroading your season.

If you have a good QB and scheme the RBBC approach will net almost the same production for half the cost.

[MJW]

Don't give any RB a second contract.

You heard me.

I said as much when CMC got his.

Sometimes, you'll get burned that way. Henry and Kamara have earned theirs. More often than not, you'll prevent a CMC or Gurley situation.

Keep your day/night job

Yep, goin' GREAT for CMC.

I mean, Henry.

I mean, Gurley.

ETC.

NFL Rushing Leaders;

- Derrick Henry - IR
- Jonathan Thomas - Rookie Deal
- Nick Chubb - Injured
- Joe Mixon - Barely more productive than his no-name backup
- Zeke - Maybe not better than his no-name backup

ETC

Block well.

Pass well.

Let your cheap back get his 4YPC.

It's not complicated.

[King Bootz]

Keep your day/night job

Yep, goin' GREAT for CMC.

I mean, Henry.

I mean, Gurley.

ETC.

NFL Rushing Leaders;

- Derrick Henry - IR
- Jonathan Thomas - Rookie Deal
- Nick Chubb - Injured
- Joe Mixon - Barely more productive than his no-name backup
- Zeke - Maybe not better than his no-name backup

ETC

Block well.

Pass well.

Let your cheap back get his 4YPC.

It's not complicated.

Yea and how well is it going for Mahomes? 4-4 and leading the league in INTs.

Matt Ryan? When is the last time they had a winning record.

Russell Wilson? Injured

What about the 2016 #1 & #2 picks Goff and Wentz? Those 2nd contracts are paying off, right?

Jimmy G? So great his team traded up to draft another QB

Kirk Cousins? Another year another losing record

Deshaun Watson? Let's not go there

Oh let's go to another position.

Allen Robinson? 2nd highest paid this year and 2nd best, right?

Michael Thomas? Makes more than Evans and hasn't played a snap.

ODB? Hmmmm not even the top WR on his team


Like I said, keep your day job. You can play that tired game with any and every position.

[BLT]

Boom. Roasted.

[MJW]

Yep, goin' GREAT for CMC.

I mean, Henry.

I mean, Gurley.

ETC.

NFL Rushing Leaders;

- Derrick Henry - IR
- Jonathan Thomas - Rookie Deal
- Nick Chubb - Injured
- Joe Mixon - Barely more productive than his no-name backup
- Zeke - Maybe not better than his no-name backup

ETC

Block well.

Pass well.

Let your cheap back get his 4YPC.

It's not complicated.

Yea and how well is it going for Mahomes? 4-4 and leading the league in INTs.

Matt Ryan? When is the last time they had a winning record.

Russell Wilson? Injured

What about the 2016 #1 & #2 picks Goff and Wentz? Those 2nd contracts are paying off, right?

Jimmy G? So great his team traded up to draft another QB

Kirk Cousins? Another year another losing record

Deshaun Watson? Let's not go there

Oh let's go to another position.

Allen Robinson? 2nd highest paid this year and 2nd best, right?

Michael Thomas? Makes more than Evans and hasn't played a snap.

ODB? Hmmmm not even the top WR on his team


Like I said, keep your day job. You can play that tired game with any and every position.

I'm not playing a game. I'm coming to a rational conclusion based on decades of evidence.

Large, long term extensions for running backs backfire MUCH more often than not.

You cannot say that about literally any other position, no matter how many random players you name. The running back position is unique. The shelf life is the shortest, and the combined risk of lower body injuries combined with the way such injuries affect backs makes for bad math. Even in your limited "I know that guy from Madden!" conception of the game, this has to have occurred to you at some point.

[MJW]

Here's some light reading. Doesn't remotely cover all of the reasons this is a bad idea, but it hits the main one. Here's an agent's take. Basically, teams should be drafting their next RB when their current RB is coming up on his would-be extension, because paying him is probably a mistake.
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agen ... ls-market/

You give a multi-year extension to a back, the odds are extremely low he's still providing value by the time the contract ends, even though you're still paying him as if he is. Unless the extension isn't a true long-term extension (ie, has painless outs after a year or two), it's a near certainty you're going to be carrying negative value at some point. A good GM doesn't pay for a depreciating asset as if it'll hold it's value. Actually, that's true of any not-idiot.

This is not true of any other position, at least if we're talking about extensions coming off a rookie deal. If we pay Tristan Wirfs like a top right tackle when he's 26, barring injury, he's still going to be a top right tackle when the deal ends at 30. Same thing for Chris Godwin, Devin White, etc, etc. Basically everyone but the running back. Running backs historically do not hold their value.

That's also without getting into the myriad of other (obvious) reasons paying a back is a mistake - the nature of the game in 2021, the (relative to other positions) ease of finding good players at the position, the almost imaginary relationship between "having an expensive back" and "having a good running game," etc.

[MJW]

To wit, if I was the Panthers, I would have dealt McCaffery before his 5th year extension kicked in, when some dumb team (looking at you, Jets) would have paid top dollar based on what he'd done his first four years, not the long odds he'd repeat it over his next four. I strongly suspect the reason the Panthers didn't do this is because it was the same offseason they moved on from Cam Newton and Luke Kuechly retired.

[King Bootz]

[Snake]

I’m not gonna advocate for tanking, but the Panthers need to decide if Cam Newton Cam Newton’ing them to a couple extra wins is worth it. Maybe he’s not capable of that anymore. Recent history would say not. But if there’s anyone who could muster some weird wins in a return to glory, it’s him.

Rhule is safe?

[Dread]

There is no future with Cam. He's a stop gap/bridge QB at this point.

Just ride out the season and address the QB position in the offseason via FA or the draft.

Fwiw, from a Bucs perspective I hope they sign Cam and he plays.

[King Bootz]

I’m not gonna advocate for tanking, but the Panthers need to decide if Cam Newton Cam Newton’ing them to a couple extra wins is worth it. Maybe he’s not capable of that anymore. Recent history would say not. But if there’s anyone who could muster some weird wins in a return to glory, it’s him.

Rhule is safe?

Darnold is slated to miss about 6 weeks and is going on IR this week. They need another QB. That's why they are going after him.

[IronDog]

Seems "supermanikin" is back in Kittyville.

[Dread]

Especially the Panthers. They're building an excellent defensive team. They have a good coach. They have one of the best WR trios in the league.

I have seen you post this often. And lord knows it is all I hear living in Charlotte; "Rhule and Tepper are a great combo... blah blah blah".
This is a media / hot take.


Rhule has been hot ass in Charlotte. Who the fuck did they beat when they were 3-0? McCaffrey is about one more injury away from being "what could have been". Rhule has made no adjustments without him in the last two seasons. And for fuck's sake.... enough with the players from Temple.

Also, who the fuck is their 3rd WR in this "one of the best WR trios in the league"?

Robby Anderson and DJ Moore are decent. But neither is a WR1. But that is still only 2 guys.

[King Bootz]

Pretty nice payday for a mid-season signing.

[King Bootz]

[Dread]

Since March 2020...

- Sign Teddy Bridgewater (3-yr, $63M with $33M guaranteed)
- Cut Cam Newton
- Trade for Sam Darnold (2nd, 4th and 6th)
- Trade Bridgewater (6th back in return)
- Pick up Darnold's 5th-year option for 2022 ($18.85M Fully Guaranteed)
- Sign Cam Newton

They should've just kept Cam for the 2020 season and paid him the $20M he was owed.

What a clusterfuck...

[King Bootz]

Good thing Rhule is such a great coach