So let me ask

[Doctor]

Somehow I seem to be the crazy one here. So let me ask. Considering that...

Year 1 - Division Title
You have an offense that is locked into place from OC to QB to the system built on a high repetition. By mid year the offense was mailing it in and in an offense where the only way up is "grind more", well we saw what happened. Yet we won the division.

Year 2 - Division Title?
So we're midway through year 2, though you could say year 1 of Bowles having HIS team from staff to roster. And even the roster part you have to take with a grain of salt given the $75M in dead cap as well. But hey, he's got a pretty cool new OC who has managed to re-energize these players. The QB situation is dicey, but even with that we could still win the division and make the playoffs for a franchise record 4th straight year.

Year 3 - Division Title... and more?
So we go into year 3 (or 2 depending on who is counting). You have a Godwin, a re-signed Evans, and Palmer one year into this offense. A line that has had a year to gell as well and Cade Otton going to the traditional breakout 3rd year (and hopefully not his 3rd offense in 3 years like some want to doom him too). Maybe White has developed the feel to run these lanes, maybe we have someone else.

Have you ever asked players how they feel during their 2nd offseason versus their 1st? I imagine it is similar of OCs. You get the most gains in your first year. He'll also have a majority of his ensemble one year deep too, which will be come in handy when we welcome in our new franchise QB. Yes, I know, shock and aw. But just because you don't believe in tanking doesn't mean you don't believe in drafting a QB, especially in a draft class like this where you know some studs are outside the top 15.

On defense, the guys who developed and took their game to the next level keep their jobs. The ones that didn't can make their way as role players as we use our massive influx of cash to bring in some veterans. On both sides, don't worry, plenty of cash to go around.





So my question is... in the deep depths of your despair right now... what would it take for you to make the "crazy" decision of giving the back to back division title winning HC that third year? Worst case you fire them all the following year and get a new offensive HC who loves your QB.

[13F11B]

So,... Todd Bowles counts as a division-winning head coach because he won with an 8-9 record while having the best QB to ever play the game? You think given the defensive performance we've seen that this team is going to turn it around and win the division? Really? You don't find fault with taking a timeout that saved time for the other team to score the right call?

No. Bowles needs to go Period.

[Babeinbucland]

The problem with that query is that it takes a blanket “Winning the division” as the highest barre. In reality, at least for me, if we win the division it should be at a minimum of 10 games and a clear trouncing of division opponents. Winning the division when the division sucks is akin to grading on a curve based on the score of the kid who was absent the day of the test.

[13F11B]

The problem with that query is that it takes a blanket “Winning the division” as the highest barre. In reality, at least for me, if we win the division it should be at a minimum of 10 games and a clear trouncing of division opponents. Winning the division when the division sucks is akin to grading on a curve based on the score of the kid who was absent the day of the test.

He has also added a fictional end to two years.

[Bootz]

The problem with that query is that it takes a blanket “Winning the division” as the highest barre. In reality, at least for me, if we win the division it should be at a minimum of 10 games and a clear trouncing of division opponents. Winning the division when the division sucks is akin to grading on a curve based on the score of the kid who was absent the day of the test.

This is called pushing a narrative, Babe. I have zero issues about the discussion of performance and whether or not Bowles should go or not. But when you get to the point of arguing "what does winning a division mean" as if there are alternate meanings to it, then you've disqualified your own argument because you're admitting you're creating your own interpretation that's not based in fact. The equivalent is a QB throws a pass 10 yards and a receiver takes it another 25 yards to score a 35 yard TD and you question "well did the QB really throw a TD pass"?


Let's keep this simple. Did Bowles team win the division in the 2022 season, yes or no? If there has to be an explanation of what that means them you're opening Pandora's box to a lot of things.

[Bootz]

So,... Todd Bowles counts as a division-winning head coach because he won with an 8-9 record while having the best QB to ever play the game?

Do you disagree that this team won the NFC South Division in 2022?

[Cheb]

The original post falls apart at "Year 2 - Division Title?"

That's a big stretch for me right now. The Bucs have lost five of their last six games, and the defense is actively devolving before our eyes into one of the worst units in the league.

What would it take for me to advocate for Bowles to come back for year 3? A complete 180 in team momentum culminating in a playoff win. Short of that, I've think I've seen what I need to see. Dude coaches scared and seems hapless on how to fix problems, and if my decades of rooting for this poverty franchise has given me anything, it's given me what I feel to be a better-than-average nose for smelling impending team collapses. And what I'm smelling right now ain't good.

As a matter of policy, I usually think pro coaches should get three years before you write them off as hopeless, but I have very little faith in Todd Bowles right now and wouldn't be mad to see him go.

[13F11B]

So,... Todd Bowles counts as a division-winning head coach because he won with an 8-9 record while having the best QB to ever play the game?

Do you disagree that this team won the NFC South Division in 2022?

No, the team won the NFC South. Just not sure winning the NFC South with a losing record should wash away the fact that he had a losing record and got lucky the rest of the division was shit.

[13F11B]

As a matter of policy, I usually think pro coaches should get three years before you write them off as hopeless, but I have very little faith in Todd Bowles right now and wouldn't be mad to see him go.

A first-time head coach should get 3 years minimum.
A second-time head coach should not need as much time to show progress.

My issue with Bowles is the record and team is going backward not forward.

[Jonny]

The eye test fails Bowles. We are losing winnable games and we look completely outcoached and outmatched in games where our opponents are expected to win. The man's strength is defense and we have a great blend of highly paid veterans in their primes, high performing youngsters still in their rookie contracts and extremely savvy borderline HOF worthy captain leading the ship. And yet the unit as a collective seems to regress week after week. I cannot remember a game under Bowles' tenure where I felt like Bucs trounced their opponent, except the Saints game this year where Carr was a injured zombie. Even teams like Houston and Jacksonville a couple of years back were notorious for beating good teams when they least expected it. That simply hasn't happened yet under Bowles, which tells me that there is zero advantage of coaching.

[GreatTimes]

In the past few days I have read several articles "from so called experts" that have the Saints beating out the Falcons for the NFCS title. The Saints are playing much better football since the Bucs defeated them. Taysom Hill has become a real force, and Alvin Kamara is a real threat. QB Carr is playing well.
The Saints are improving while the Bucs are getting worse with their 4 game losing streak.
Doctor is being overly optimistic in thinking the Bucs are going to win the NFCS this season.

[GreatTimes]

Just looked the remaining Saints Schedule. The only teams they play with a winning record is against the Vikings (without their starting QB) and the Lions. The rest of their schedule is against teams that all have losing records. Going to be really hard for the Bucs to overcome the Saints to win the NFCS.

[Bootz]

I have to ask: Did people actually thinking this was a playoff team?

[Grahamburn]

I have to ask: Did people actually thinking this was a playoff team?

Playoff team in terms of winning this division again? Yes, I thought so. They still could be. The schedule is not difficult. But, they’ve already lost two very winnable games against mediocre to bad opponents.

Even if Bowles can somehow go 6-3 in these last nine games I think they’ll just get trounced in the first round again.

[Grahamburn]

Just looked the remaining Saints Schedule. The only teams they play with a winning record is against the Vikings (without their starting QB) and the Lions. The rest of their schedule is against teams that all have losing records. Going to be really hard for the Bucs to overcome the Saints to win the NFCS.

We’d need to go 7-2 or 6-3 with one of those wins being over the Saints. We still play SF and Jax as well as Green Bay on the road (brr).

And we all know we’ll put up a stinker against a team we should beat. We’re probably looking at 4-5 at best to finish the year.

I don’t see a future in Tampa for Todd after this season. Unless the Glazers just want to save the money.

[Four Verticals]

The original post falls apart at "Year 2 - Division Title?"

That's a big stretch for me right now. The Bucs have lost five of their last six games, and the defense is actively devolving before our eyes into one of the worst units in the league.

What would it take for me to advocate for Bowles to come back for year 3? A complete 180 in team momentum culminating in a playoff win. Short of that, I've think I've seen what I need to see. Dude coaches scared and seems hapless on how to fix problems, and if my decades of rooting for this poverty franchise has given me anything, it's given me what I feel to be a better-than-average nose for smelling impending team collapses. And what I'm smelling right now ain't good.

As a matter of policy, I usually think pro coaches should get three years before you write them off as hopeless, but I have very little faith in Todd Bowles right now and wouldn't be mad to see him go.

I'm in agreement here however I think there's too much potential for the Bucs to win enough games for the Glazers not to make a change at the end of the season. I don't think Bowles is the guy to bring the Bucs back to being a competitive playoff team....and not just the mumbo jumbo in the OP of this thread whatever that was....I just have my doubts that a move is made without a significant collapse the remainder of the season. Maybe tanking for a QB is the wrong answer (I'm not a fan of it) but losing as many as possible to get a new and hopefully better HC is.

[Four Verticals]

Just looked the remaining Saints Schedule. The only teams they play with a winning record is against the Vikings (without their starting QB) and the Lions. The rest of their schedule is against teams that all have losing records. Going to be really hard for the Bucs to overcome the Saints to win the NFCS.

We’d need to go 7-2 or 6-3 with one of those wins being over the Saints. We still play SF and Jax as well as Green Bay on the road (brr).

And we all know we’ll put up a stinker against a team we should beat. We’re probably looking at 4-5 at best to finish the year.

Not to beat this to death but I think 7 or 8 wins has Bowles back next season.

[IronDog]

I have to ask: Did people actually thinking this was a playoff team?

Losing games is part of the sport. I would personally accept the losing but prefer winning games, but I cannot abide when the team doesn't bother to show up for the festivities. Even you have issues with that scenario. Lord knows we old fellers have experience losing out the season, nearly two of them. But the team was actively tryin to improve. They eventually got around to showing effort every game. But over the last 20 years I have seen numerous "games" where, even though a few players tried to go, it is still a team sport, and they would have been better served to not even dress out..

[_MB_]

I have to ask: Did people actually thinking this was a playoff team?

I still think the team has a shot at it.

But the margin for error is shrinking, they gotta figure something out fast.

I'm not on board for firing Bowles at this point. This was never a "division title or bust" year.

But again... they need to figure shit out real quick or what choice do you have?

[BuccaNOLEer]

I have to ask: Did people actually thinking this was a playoff team?

At the beginning of the season, no. When they won three of their first four games, maybe. After losing two games to shit teams and the offense disappearing, only to see the defense disappear when the offense reappears.... HELL NO

[Pirate Life]

Somehow I seem to be the crazy one here. So let me ask. Considering that...

Year 1 - Division Title
You have an offense that is locked into place from OC to QB to the system built on a high repetition. By mid year the offense was mailing it in and in an offense where the only way up is "grind more", well we saw what happened. Yet we won the division.

Year 2 - Division Title?
So we're midway through year 2, though you could say year 1 of Bowles having HIS team from staff to roster. And even the roster part you have to take with a grain of salt given the $75M in dead cap as well. But hey, he's got a pretty cool new OC who has managed to re-energize these players. The QB situation is dicey, but even with that we could still win the division and make the playoffs for a franchise record 4th straight year.

Year 3 - Division Title... and more?
So we go into year 3 (or 2 depending on who is counting). You have a Godwin, a re-signed Evans, and Palmer one year into this offense. A line that has had a year to gell as well and Cade Otton going to the traditional breakout 3rd year (and hopefully not his 3rd offense in 3 years like some want to doom him too). Maybe White has developed the feel to run these lanes, maybe we have someone else.

Have you ever asked players how they feel during their 2nd offseason versus their 1st? I imagine it is similar of OCs. You get the most gains in your first year. He'll also have a majority of his ensemble one year deep too, which will be come in handy when we welcome in our new franchise QB. Yes, I know, shock and aw. But just because you don't believe in tanking doesn't mean you don't believe in drafting a QB, especially in a draft class like this where you know some studs are outside the top 15.

On defense, the guys who developed and took their game to the next level keep their jobs. The ones that didn't can make their way as role players as we use our massive influx of cash to bring in some veterans. On both sides, don't worry, plenty of cash to go around.





So my question is... in the deep depths of your despair right now... what would it take for you to make the "crazy" decision of giving the back to back division title winning HC that third year? Worst case you fire them all the following year and get a new offensive HC who loves your QB.

Two words: Jeff Fisher.
Another two: Ron Rivera.

[IronDog]

Always see these recommendations to hire this coach or that coach to replace the non-coach staring down our sidelines. The very first thing that pops into my feeble mind is: "Why are these guys available in the first place?" Seriously, if they were the see-all, end-all gurus they keep being made out to be, they would still be employed. Examples: Ravens have had Harbaugh longer than half the players on his team have been stumbling around this earth. Same goes for the Steelers with Tomlin.

[Bootz]

Somehow I seem to be the crazy one here. So let me ask. Considering that...

Year 1 - Division Title
You have an offense that is locked into place from OC to QB to the system built on a high repetition. By mid year the offense was mailing it in and in an offense where the only way up is "grind more", well we saw what happened. Yet we won the division.

Year 2 - Division Title?
So we're midway through year 2, though you could say year 1 of Bowles having HIS team from staff to roster. And even the roster part you have to take with a grain of salt given the $75M in dead cap as well. But hey, he's got a pretty cool new OC who has managed to re-energize these players. The QB situation is dicey, but even with that we could still win the division and make the playoffs for a franchise record 4th straight year.

Year 3 - Division Title... and more?
So we go into year 3 (or 2 depending on who is counting). You have a Godwin, a re-signed Evans, and Palmer one year into this offense. A line that has had a year to gell as well and Cade Otton going to the traditional breakout 3rd year (and hopefully not his 3rd offense in 3 years like some want to doom him too). Maybe White has developed the feel to run these lanes, maybe we have someone else.

Have you ever asked players how they feel during their 2nd offseason versus their 1st? I imagine it is similar of OCs. You get the most gains in your first year. He'll also have a majority of his ensemble one year deep too, which will be come in handy when we welcome in our new franchise QB. Yes, I know, shock and aw. But just because you don't believe in tanking doesn't mean you don't believe in drafting a QB, especially in a draft class like this where you know some studs are outside the top 15.

On defense, the guys who developed and took their game to the next level keep their jobs. The ones that didn't can make their way as role players as we use our massive influx of cash to bring in some veterans. On both sides, don't worry, plenty of cash to go around.





So my question is... in the deep depths of your despair right now... what would it take for you to make the "crazy" decision of giving the back to back division title winning HC that third year? Worst case you fire them all the following year and get a new offensive HC who loves your QB.

Two words: Jeff Fisher.
Another two: Ron Rivera.

If you looked up long term mediocrity Jeff Fisher's face would take up the entire page. Fun fact he and Ron Rivera won the same number of division titles with their 1st teams, 3 total. But Rivera did it in 9 years. Fisher did it in 16.

[Onthebrink]

The problem with that query is that it takes a blanket “Winning the division” as the highest barre. In reality, at least for me, if we win the division it should be at a minimum of 10 games and a clear trouncing of division opponents. Winning the division when the division sucks is akin to grading on a curve based on the score of the kid who was absent the day of the test.

This is called pushing a narrative, Babe. I have zero issues about the discussion of performance and whether or not Bowles should go or not. But when you get to the point of arguing "what does winning a division mean" as if there are alternate meanings to it, then you've disqualified your own argument because you're admitting you're creating your own interpretation that's not based in fact. The equivalent is a QB throws a pass 10 yards and a receiver takes it another 25 yards to score a 35 yard TD and you question "well did the QB really throw a TD pass"?


Let's keep this simple. Did Bowles team win the division in the 2022 season, yes or no? If there has to be an explanation of what that means them you're opening Pandora's box to a lot of things.

This is kind of spot on. When you start adding caveats to what winning a division ought to be then you can do so ad infinitum. Why is 10 games the bar, why not 11? Why does trouncing division opponents mean so much? What does trouncing mean? Is that winning by 10 points each game or just winning 5 out 6? You can move the bar wherever you want if it doesn't meet very specific criteria that you made up.

[Bootz]

This is called pushing a narrative, Babe. I have zero issues about the discussion of performance and whether or not Bowles should go or not. But when you get to the point of arguing "what does winning a division mean" as if there are alternate meanings to it, then you've disqualified your own argument because you're admitting you're creating your own interpretation that's not based in fact. The equivalent is a QB throws a pass 10 yards and a receiver takes it another 25 yards to score a 35 yard TD and you question "well did the QB really throw a TD pass"?


Let's keep this simple. Did Bowles team win the division in the 2022 season, yes or no? If there has to be an explanation of what that means them you're opening Pandora's box to a lot of things.

This is kind of spot on. When you start adding caveats to what winning a division ought to be then you can do so ad infinitum. Why is 10 games the bar, why not 11? Why does trouncing division opponents mean so much? What does trouncing mean? Is that winning by 10 points each game or just winning 5 out 6? You can move the bar wherever you want if it doesn't meet very specific criteria that you made up.

By her own logic, the Jags didn't really win their division last season at 9-8. That Giants team that won the SB in 2011? They were 9-7 division winners. Did they really win it?

[Cheb]

Always see these recommendations to hire this coach or that coach to replace the non-coach staring down our sidelines. The very first thing that pops into my feeble mind is: "Why are these guys available in the first place?" Seriously, if they were the see-all, end-all gurus they keep being made out to be, they would still be employed. Examples: Ravens have had Harbaugh longer than half the players on his team have been stumbling around this earth. Same goes for the Steelers with Tomlin.

[Grahamburn]

I have to ask: Did people actually thinking this was a playoff team?

I still think the team has a shot at it.

But the margin for error is shrinking, they gotta figure something out fast.

I'm not on board for firing Bowles at this point. This was never a "division title or bust" year.

But again... they need to figure shit out real quick or what choice do you have?

I could get on board with that if the situation were similar to last year where the offense kept shitting the bed and the defense played well all year. This offense has played fairly well outside of a couple games, but it's the defense that's letting us down. A defense that got high priced free agents and our first round pick added to it. Bowles is a defensive head coach.

If Baker Mayfield is putting up 37 points for you and you're losing games then you're the problem. Baker is playing turnover free efficient football with minimal running game and we still can't win because Bowles' defense is a disaster.

I can't get on board with keeping him at 7 or 8 wins if that's the case.

[_MB_]

I still think the team has a shot at it.

But the margin for error is shrinking, they gotta figure something out fast.

I'm not on board for firing Bowles at this point. This was never a "division title or bust" year.

But again... they need to figure shit out real quick or what choice do you have?

I could get on board with that if the situation were similar to last year where the offense kept shitting the bed and the defense played well all year. This offense has played fairly well outside of a couple games, but it's the defense that's letting us down. A defense that got high priced free agents and our first round pick added to it. Bowles is a defensive head coach.

If Baker Mayfield is putting up 37 points for you and you're losing games then you're the problem. Baker is playing turnover free efficient football with minimal running game and we still can't win because Bowles' defense is a disaster.

I can't get on board with keeping him at 7 or 8 wins if that's the case.

New quarterback, new offense, cap hell.

I submit to you that if it was a brand new head coach to go with the brand new OC and quarterback, we're giving them to the end of the season to get it right.

[IronDog]

Always see these recommendations to hire this coach or that coach to replace the non-coach staring down our sidelines. The very first thing that pops into my feeble mind is: "Why are these guys available in the first place?" Seriously, if they were the see-all, end-all gurus they keep being made out to be, they would still be employed. Examples: Ravens have had Harbaugh longer than half the players on his team have been stumbling around this earth. Same goes for the Steelers with Tomlin.

Yeah, him too!

[Bootz]

Yeah, him too!

No he fits in that "why are these guys available in the first place" category. The Eagles fired him in 2012 and he became available. I think that's what @Cheb was getting at.

[Grahamburn]

Yeah, him too!

No he fits in that "why are these guys available in the first place" category. The Eagles fired him in 2012 and he became available. I think that's what @Cheb was getting at.

Not too different from us with Dungy. Reid couldn’t get over the hump there for whatever reason. He certainly has in KC.

[IronDog]

He was with the Eagles forever. When Owens showed up and McNabb puked all over the SB field, something had to change, But he wasn't out of the picture for more than a few minutes.

You may be correct, but I didn't associate him that same way. River Boat Ron and Jerry-Jeff Walker Fischer seem to be available for hire every couple of years.

[Cheb]

Yeah, him too!

No he fits in that "why are these guys available in the first place" category. The Eagles fired him in 2012 and he became available. I think that's what @Cheb was getting at.

Bingo.

[Jonny]

One point not mentioned enough is how flat and uninspiring our team has been coming out of a bye week under Todd Bowles. Heck, the Texans game was after a mini bye thanks to TNF vs Bills and our defense had the worst outing of the Bowles-Arians era. Who cares if this team wins the division? There are clear cut indicators of horrible coaching.

[Obsolete]

So my question for everyone who wants to retain Bowles. If the bucs miss the playoffs, are you still as high on him?

He would be missing the playoffs in a weak division with a talented roster(as some of you like to point out).

How would you feel if we finished 3rd in the division? Because we very well could.