Is Baker truly a better option than Trask?

[Jonny]

There were many calling for benching of Mayfield going forward right after the Bills game ended (notably @Backside ) and I disagreed. I believed then that despite all his flaws, Baker is still the better option, citing his experience, moxie and improvisational ability.

As some time has passed, I am not as sure. One of the biggest problems with our offense the last three weeks has been staying on script and playing with rhythm. While rhythm has more to do with good play design and not committing dumb penalties, I feel like Baker himself contributes quite significantly to a lack of rhythm on offense.

His height seems to be a far bigger issue than I originally realized. He has way too many tipped passes, which could have been easy completions. His height also clearly affects his ability to see the field when the pocket is closing in on him. Baker unnecessarily seemed to run out of a clean pocket many times the last few weeks and by then the offensive play turns into backyard football.

Unlike the first few games, Baker also has become a lot more frantic, especially when we are trailing and a starting QB is expected to become poised. It was too apparent in yesterday's game that Baker was feeling pressure when it wasn't there and started developing some happy feet bringing down the ceiling of an already underperforming offense.

Finally, yet again there seem to be a myriad of plays where Baker simply doesn't hit his receiver at the right time and waits until defenders start to close-in on wide open receivers. Those watching the game will feel like all receivers have been covered, when that is moreso the case because Baker holds on to the ball way too long and is indecisive even when he sees open receivers.

Those of you that have closely watched Trask, do you see a scenario where Trask could run this offense with more efficiency and productivity? Early on in the year, I assumed pass blocking to be horrendous and dismissed the thought of Trask starting. But our O-line blocks really well and Trask looked pretty competent this preseason for the first time. Would we really get noticeably worse with Trask starting?

[Buc2]

My money is on they both suck.

[Cheb]

I was on team-Trask in the preseason and I'd happily jump back on the bandwagon if the Bucs make a switch, especially if the team is mathematically eliminated from playoff contention moving forward. He's cheap, he's got a live arm, and I would love to see what he can do with Evans and Godwin instead of the practice squadies he has mostly thrown to in the NFL.

That said, I expect Bowles to cling to every win he can, because rightly his job is at stake should the Bucs' ship keep sinking. Playing a player with no NFL experience is risky, which is likely a big reason why Trask lost out the job over Mayfield in the first place, because Bowles as we have seen is risk-adverse to the nth degree (except allowing Cooper Kupp single coverage on a safety in the final 30 seconds of a playoff game). Therefore I anticipate that Baker will play every game moving forward barring injury.

At this point I am caring less by the day honestly. If we continue to play as we have been, we are going to lock up a top ten if not top five draft pick for the new coaching staff (and GM?) to play with. Likely a quarterback, I reckon. Trask may get a start or two before the rookie is crowned as franchise savior and thrust into the fire, as we regress further to our historical mean as a franchise.

Meh.

[Backside]

That's funny, I don't remember being super adamant about a QB change after the game (drafting a new one this offseason, yes.) not as much as others at least. But I'm happy to lead the charge. I don't think or expect that Trask is better than Baker, but I also don't think Baker is going to suddenly become something more than he has been to this point, and it's not anything I'd be sad to lose. Devil you don't know and all that.

Trask playing gives us a definitive answer on whether he is an NFL player or not, even if we are all pretty sure already. And if we turn out to be right, then the draft pick is a bit better, and really nothing else was lost.

But if I'm a coaching staff trying to win week to week then it's probably hard to argue for playing Trask over Baker right now. I could really care less about the difference between 5 and 8 wins this year, but they don't have that mindset. Which is understandable.

I think to see Trask Baker would need to definitively lose the job, which he hasn't been quite bad enough to do yet. But the arrow is heading down. Trask starting also just makes the season more interesting to me going forward, one way or another. So I'm all for it.

[acmillis]

Trask may be the worst QB in the history of the NFL, but he also may be...not that.

I've been screaming to give him a chance at real, live action, and would have preferred him have this entire season to see what he's got.

If he sucks, great, we know we need to draft a QB. If he doesn't suck, great.

Either way, we'll know where we are as long as Trask gets a chance.

[Bootz]

In regards to Trask, if the ringing endorsement is "well he might not suck", that tells you all you need to know.

[Phantom]

There were many calling for benching of Mayfield going forward right after the Bills game ended (notably @Backside ) and I disagreed. I believed then that despite all his flaws, Baker is still the better option, citing his experience, moxie and improvisational ability.

As some time has passed, I am not as sure. One of the biggest problems with our offense the last three weeks has been staying on script and playing with rhythm. While rhythm has more to do with good play design and not committing dumb penalties, I feel like Baker himself contributes quite significantly to a lack of rhythm on offense.

His height seems to be a far bigger issue than I originally realized. He has way too many tipped passes, which could have been easy completions. His height also clearly affects his ability to see the field when the pocket is closing in on him. Baker unnecessarily seemed to run out of a clean pocket many times the last few weeks and by then the offensive play turns into backyard football.

Unlike the first few games, Baker also has become a lot more frantic, especially when we are trailing and a starting QB is expected to become poised. It was too apparent in yesterday's game that Baker was feeling pressure when it wasn't there and started developing some happy feet bringing down the ceiling of an already underperforming offense.

Finally, yet again there seem to be a myriad of plays where Baker simply doesn't hit his receiver at the right time and waits until defenders start to close-in on wide open receivers. Those watching the game will feel like all receivers have been covered, when that is moreso the case because Baker holds on to the ball way too long and is indecisive even when he sees open receivers.

Absolutely, 100 percent..I couldn't agree more. ...

[Snake]

"Baker holds on to the ball too long"

He always has, he always will. Because he doesn't process the field quickly enough. It will forever limit his ceiling. Despite his amazing arm and good deep ball.

[Bootz]

"Baker holds on to the ball too long"

He always has, he always will. Because he doesn't process the field quickly enough. It will forever limit his ceiling. Despite his amazing arm and good deep ball.

It's clear he doesn't trust his eyes and gets easily rattled. Probably why he works better off script.

[acmillis]

In regards to Trask, if the ringing endorsement is "well he might not suck", that tells you all you need to know.

That’s every draft pick ever

[Bootz]

In regards to Trask, if the ringing endorsement is "well he might not suck", that tells you all you need to know.

That’s every draft pick ever

You think the best thing said about every draft pick coming into the league is "well he might not suck"? Boy, that sure is a far cry from the "generational" labels thrown around.

[GreatTimes]

Bowles is not going to pulls Mayfield. To do so, Bowles would be admitting that he made a mistake in signing and playing Mayfield. Aint gonna happen.

[Snake]

Bowles is not going to pulls Mayfield. To do so, Bowles would be admitting that he made a mistake in signing and playing Mayfield. Aint gonna happen.

Baker would have to implode, or it would come from Licht.

[Miller4Prez64]

I honestly don’t know. I’m not too optimistic on the dude, and NEVER wanted us to draft him. Rolled my eyes when Arians compared him to Brad Johnson after drafting him.

But I do know Baker Mayfield is one of the worst starting QBs in the league and has proven it in multiple stops. He can’t read a defense, can’t hit deep balls with accuracy and is too quick to take off when his first read isn’t open at times. I’m not all too thrilled with him, even in his “good” early season wins he really didn’t do anything spectacular. I would be okay with letting Trask go out there just to see what he has. But as expected, our QB situation is horrible and we need to be looking at our options next year.

[BucsNBills]

I don't think it really matters man. I'm barely invested in this season because it feels almost like a filler NFL league. Sort of similar to how the Office felt when Michael left, which in this case Brady is the one that departed. He was the main protagonist of the NFL and there's nobody in the league right now that can fill that void.

So Baker, Trask, it don't matter. We're going to win too many games and not send players for draft capital regardless so whoever is under center is irrelevant.

[Jonny]

I was on team-Trask in the preseason and I'd happily jump back on the bandwagon if the Bucs make a switch, especially if the team is mathematically eliminated from playoff contention moving forward. He's cheap, he's got a live arm, and I would love to see what he can do with Evans and Godwin instead of the practice squadies he has mostly thrown to in the NFL.

That said, I expect Bowles to cling to every win he can, because rightly his job is at stake should the Bucs' ship keep sinking. Playing a player with no NFL experience is risky, which is likely a big reason why Trask lost out the job over Mayfield in the first place, because Bowles as we have seen is risk-adverse to the nth degree (except allowing Cooper Kupp single coverage on a safety in the final 30 seconds of a playoff game). Therefore I anticipate that Baker will play every game moving forward barring injury.

At this point I am caring less by the day honestly. If we continue to play as we have been, we are going to lock up a top ten if not top five draft pick for the new coaching staff (and GM?) to play with. Likely a quarterback, I reckon. Trask may get a start or two before the rookie is crowned as franchise savior and thrust into the fire, as we regress further to our historical mean as a franchise.

Meh.

The previous few years during Preseason, it always looked like Trask is simply incapable of playing QB because of how much he lacks mobility and how frazzled he gets in the face of pressure. One thing that impressed me about Trask during this preseason was how often he was willing to attempt 10+, 20+ yard completions even behind a horrible horrible O-line that got pass rush in his face less than a second after snap. I also remember far fewer instances of Trask seeing someone getting open, having a stable platform to throw to, but choosing to hang on to the ball.

On the contrary, this tendency of Baker to not let the ball fly was obvious from preseason even if his statline had only 1 or 2 incompletions. We all assumed Baker would improve once he got more time in this offense. Nope, it is the same exact guy playing now and if anything he's lost his cool and has regressed because his reputation keeps taking a hit after every bad game and he comes off reputation conscious.

I would rather the change be made when we still have a shot at the playoffs, not after that ship has sailed. A "this game is a must win for our playoff chances to be alive" attitude forces Trask and coaches to get meaningful
football out of him. If Bucs lose enough to where the playoffs chances are gone, the coaches know they are getting fired and we will see a very uninspired team.

Even if we find out Trask is capable of playing at a Taylor Heinecke level, it would be a great outcome. I honestly think Heinecke would do better on our offense than Baker has the last few weeks.

[Four Verticals]

I think Cheb is on it. We should find out about Trask but we won't barring injury to Mayfield. The Bucs are probably going to win enough games to remain in contention for the NFC South and a playoff spot. So no QB change is going to be made and, in particular, all that quickly. If the Bucs were in a division with a good team capable of pulling away with 11 or more wins, we might see Trask.

The only hope for Trask is losing 4-5 more in a row and Licht maybe steps in and tells them to play Trask.

[Bootz]

Most popular player in town is the backup QB.

[Kona]

I think we’ll find out a lot in this Texans game. Lose and look like we have been offensively the last month, we’ll be 3-5 and playoffs aren’t likely. If that’s the case, go ahead and see what we have in Trask.

If Baker comes out and plays well, we win to go 4-4, they’ll keep him in as long as we have a shot at the playoffs bc this staff is coaching for their jobs.

Either way, this team ain’t going anywhere this year. Whoever wins this division will be king of trash mountain again and get blown out in the wild card round.

[Four Verticals]

I think we’ll find out a lot in this Texans game. Lose and look like we have been offensively the last month, we’ll be 3-5 and playoffs aren’t likely. If that’s the case, go ahead and see what we have in Trask.

If Baker comes out and plays well, we win to go 4-4, they’ll keep him in as long as we have a shot at the playoffs bc this staff is coaching for their jobs.

Either way, this team ain’t going anywhere this year. Whoever wins this division will be king of trash mountain again and get blown out in the wild card round.

Problem is the division leader is only a game ahead at this point and could be 1/2 game ahead after tomorrow. It's still way too close for any staff to "throw in the towel" which is what replacing Mayfield will look like. We're probably at least 3-4 games away from a QB change barring injury or a complete series of games by Mayfield where he's been far worse than he's been so far.

[Babeinbucland]

Can we get some of the Georgia players now?

[Bootz]

You know the booths they have at the fair or the carnival asking you to pay $1 or $2 to see the 6 inch woman or the half man/half alligator and you know it's some bullshit but you can't help yourself?

Kyle Trask is the gator man (no pun intended). Nobody has any real confidence that he'll be any better than Baker. The absolute most positive thing I've seen about him here is "he might not suck". That ain't a compliment.

[Bootz]

Can we get some of the Georgia players now?

We already have one: Camarda. And he's been the team MVP thus far.

[Selmon Rules]

You know the booths they have at the fair or the carnival asking you to pay $1 or $2 to see the 6 inch woman or the half man/half alligator and you know it's some bullshit but you can't help yourself?

Kyle Trask is the gator man (no pun intended). Nobody has any real confidence that he'll be any better than Baker. The absolute most positive thing I've seen about him here is "he might not suck". That ain't a compliment.

You may be right on this but right now, many don't see Mayfield taking us anywhere. As long as we aren't going anywhere, we might as well learn something we don't know.

Is Trask someone we could win with?? Question does need to be answered at some point

[Jonny]

You know the booths they have at the fair or the carnival asking you to pay $1 or $2 to see the 6 inch woman or the half man/half alligator and you know it's some bullshit but you can't help yourself?

Kyle Trask is the gator man (no pun intended). Nobody has any real confidence that he'll be any better than Baker. The absolute most positive thing I've seen about him here is "he might not suck". That ain't a compliment.

Bootzie my brother, not trying to be sarcastic or dismissive. I am not sure what point you are trying to make and who your response is directed towards.

You have correctly pointed out that almost no one in this thread is actually sure about Trask being good or better than Baker. But this discussion is about the likelihood of Trask being WORSE than Baker. I think that likelihood is low. Their styles are different and despite the experience gap, I think their pros are cons make the net sum a push from a results perspective. Haven't you yourself pointed out Baker's timidness from letting it fly even when his eyes diagnose the defense correctly?

[13F11B]

So, Baker has had several starts to show what he is. He has been given time to learn. Time to mature. He is mediocre at best. Trask has not been given real game time to grow in. He may or may not be. So there are three scenarios:

1) Baker continues to play middle football and the Buccaneers get a mid-round draft pick and they can't get a new QB of the future in the draft.
2) Trask gets an opportunity and proves to be no better than Mayfield. The Buccaneers miss out on getting a new QB of the future in the draft.
3) Trask shows he is better than Mayfield and the Buccaneers can give him some more game time to grow.

Personally, I would want to see what Trask can do. Do I think he will be better than Mayfield - I don't know. What I do know is Mayfield is not it and we have plenty of tape to show that.

[GreatTimes]

I posted before the season started that there was a reason that Baker was cut loose by Cleveland, Carolina and the LA Rams. I think the Bucs fans are starting to realize what those 3 prior teams experienced with Baker as their QB.

[Bootz]

I posted before the season started that there was a reason that Baker was cut loose by Cleveland, Carolina and the LA Rams. I think the Bucs fans are starting to realize what those 3 prior teams experienced with Baker as their QB.

People fooled themselves into thinking the 3 teams that let him walk in 2022 made mistakes. They fooled themselves into thinking this time would be different. That the last 5 years were a fluke. That 2020 was the "real" Baker Mayfield.

Not 1 person should be clutching their pearls at the facts that Baker is still inconsistent, gunshy, overall a subpar QB. This is no different than any other year with him.

[Doctor]

Does anyone care to keep either around enough to find out?

I think the coaches feel both guys can be good QBs, given time in the offense. MoRe TimE?? Yeah. QBs take time in systems. Even the GOAT took time. Allen took time. Brees and Rodgers took years. We went over repeatedly the chemistry period needed for an Arians offense. Different systems and different QBs "get it" at different speeds. But in the end, does it really matter if it took 1 year or 3 years to arrive if you end up with a good QB for a run?

Say both our guys could be peak Kirk Cousins level good, but it would take Trask 2 years of PT to get there and Baker 1 year, are any of you actually willing to sit for it? Of course not. That's why we say stuff like "give Trask 4 games to show us if he can be the man", like really?

I think Trask can be good in this league, I think he has the anticipation needed in today's game. I don't know how long it would take for him to finally get settled in and really show us his true potential, but I doubt he gets it. More to the point, OBP thinks Baker can reach his peak level sooner- preferably by December for the dance. And so far the beat from the locker room and OBP is still full belief that that is the case. "We're close, clean some stuff up".

[Selmon Rules]

I posted before the season started that there was a reason that Baker was cut loose by Cleveland, Carolina and the LA Rams. I think the Bucs fans are starting to realize what those 3 prior teams experienced with Baker as their QB.

People fooled themselves into thinking the 3 teams that let him walk in 2022 made mistakes. They fooled themselves into thinking this time would be different. That the last 5 years were a fluke. That 2020 was the "real" Baker Mayfield.

Not 1 person should be clutching their pearls at the facts that Baker is still inconsistent, gunshy, overall a subpar QB. This is no different than any other year with him.

I don't think you are wrong with this take but I also don't understand the point you are apparently trying to make that we shouldn't see what Trask can actually do in a real game situation.

If you believe Baker sucks or is middling at best, why not see what Trask is and end the guessing and predicting?? Actually find out??

[acmillis]

Does anyone care to keep either around enough to find out?

I think the coaches feel both guys can be good QBs, given time in the offense. MoRe TimE?? Yeah. QBs take time in systems. Even the GOAT took time. Allen took time. Brees and Rodgers took years. We went over repeatedly the chemistry period needed for an Arians offense. Different systems and different QBs "get it" at different speeds. But in the end, does it really matter if it took 1 year or 3 years to arrive if you end up with a good QB for a run?

Say both our guys could be peak Kirk Cousins level good, but it would take Trask 2 years of PT to get there and Baker 1 year, are any of you actually willing to sit for it? Of course not. That's why we say stuff like "give Trask 4 games to show us if he can be the man", like really?

I think Trask can be good in this league, I think he has the anticipation needed in today's game. I don't know how long it would take for him to finally get settled in and really show us his true potential, but I doubt he gets it. More to the point, OBP thinks Baker can reach his peak level sooner- preferably by December for the dance. And so far the beat from the locker room and OBP is still full belief that that is the case. "We're close, clean some stuff up".

This is Baker's sixth season as an NFL quarterback. We're seeing the EXACT same issues this year as we did year one, two, etc. Baker is serviceable, but I do not want him as the starting QB long term, so with that in mind, Trask needs to see the field sooner rather than later.

[Jonny]

Does anyone care to keep either around enough to find out?

I think the coaches feel both guys can be good QBs, given time in the offense. MoRe TimE?? Yeah. QBs take time in systems. Even the GOAT took time. Allen took time. Brees and Rodgers took years. We went over repeatedly the chemistry period needed for an Arians offense. Different systems and different QBs "get it" at different speeds. But in the end, does it really matter if it took 1 year or 3 years to arrive if you end up with a good QB for a run?

Say both our guys could be peak Kirk Cousins level good, but it would take Trask 2 years of PT to get there and Baker 1 year, are any of you actually willing to sit for it? Of course not. That's why we say stuff like "give Trask 4 games to show us if he can be the man", like really?

I think Trask can be good in this league, I think he has the anticipation needed in today's game. I don't know how long it would take for him to finally get settled in and really show us his true potential, but I doubt he gets it. More to the point, OBP thinks Baker can reach his peak level sooner- preferably by December for the dance. And so far the beat from the locker room and OBP is still full belief that that is the case. "We're close, clean some stuff up".

This is Baker's sixth season as an NFL quarterback. We're seeing the EXACT same issues this year as we did year one, two, etc. Baker is serviceable, but I do not want him as the starting QB long term, so with that in mind, Trask needs to see the field sooner rather than later.

I would add, Trask needs to see the field when there is still a strong chance we can win the division. Not when Baker led Bucs have lost enough games to where we are only playing for "pride" and collect the paycheck under a coach on hot seat.

I have a feeling Bucs will go 1-2 at best in the next three games and that would be the turning point for QB position. Heck, if we drop the game to a rookie in Houston, I would not be surprised if the Glazers give a call to Licht.

[13F11B]

Baker is not getting any better. He is who we have seen over six seasons.

Trask has never been given a chance. He could suck. He could shine. The bigger issue is that I am not sure the team gets fixed by a QB change. The defense is a huge issue. It is giving up historic passing yardage and can't get off the field on 3rd down unless the opponent scores.

[acmillis]

Baker is not getting any better. He is who we have seen over six seasons.

Trask has never been given a chance. He could suck. He could shine. The bigger issue is that I am not sure the team gets fixed by a QB change. The defense is a huge issue. It is giving up historic passing yardage and can't get off the field on 3rd down unless the opponent scores.

You gotta stop. The defense gives up 256 pass YPG, on pace for 4,352 over a 17-game season which is nowhere close to historically bad...take a look for yourself: https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-mo ... n-a-season.

Also, there are 4 teams allowing more pass YPG than us.

Another thing...to prove how dumb the "OMG, our pass defense is giving up YARDS YARDS YARDS" is....

Cleveland is best in the league against the pass, allowing only 163 YPG. They also allow 19.9 PPG, which is more than our defense allows.

Take a chill pill brosephine.

[13F11B]

Baker is not getting any better. He is who we have seen over six seasons.

Trask has never been given a chance. He could suck. He could shine. The bigger issue is that I am not sure the team gets fixed by a QB change. The defense is a huge issue. It is giving up historic passing yardage and can't get off the field on 3rd down unless the opponent scores.

You gotta stop. The defense gives up 256 pass YPG, on pace for 4,352 over a 17-game season which is nowhere close to historically bad...take a look for yourself: https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-mo ... n-a-season.

Also, there are 4 teams allowing more pass YPG than us.

Another thing...to prove how dumb the "OMG, our pass defense is giving up YARDS YARDS YARDS" is....

Cleveland is best in the league against the pass, allowing only 163 YPG. They also allow 19.9 PPG, which is more than our defense allows.

Take a chill pill brosephine.

I cannot help you understand why I think the defense is an issue. My point stands. The defense is a problem.

The Buccaneers rank 24th for yards allowed per game and 22nd for passing yards allowed per game,