Defensive Discussion

[13F11B]

I'm tired of seeing the CBs 10 yards off the line on a 3rd and 5. Seems to me that they should be either pressing and disrupting or at least close enough to stop the receiver short of the first down after they catch it

According to Bowles we only have two corners good at man. If they have more than 2 WRs, we will always be in zone. One of the reasons Winfield was playing the slot so much was so we could go man with 3 receiver sets. I am not sure if Izien is good in man. I mean, it can't be worse than DW making the wrong choice or abandoning him responsibilities in zone, ie. allowing Pitts to go by him when the QB is still more than 5 yards behind the line and 15 yards from you

Sigh.

[Cheb]

I'm tired of seeing the CBs 10 yards off the line on a 3rd and 5. Seems to me that they should be either pressing and disrupting or at least close enough to stop the receiver short of the first down after they catch it

According to Bowles we only have two corners good at man. If they have more than 2 WRs, we will always be in zone. One of the reasons Winfield was playing the slot so much was so we could go man with 3 receiver sets. I am not sure if Izien is good in man. I mean, it can't be worse than DW making the wrong choice or abandoning him responsibilities in zone, ie. allowing Pitts to go by him when the QB is still more than 5 yards behind the line and 15 yards from you

Really? That's wild if that's true. Would love to see a source on that.

Even if it is true, you don't go out and SAY it to the media in the digital age. It makes scouting so simple even a caveman could do it. >5 DBs = zone. Even an Ohio State grad could figure that one out.

[Grahamburn]

Lol. You can make up anything you want in the digital age. Truth. And wild.

[Pirate Life]

According to Bowles we only have two corners good at man. If they have more than 2 WRs, we will always be in zone. One of the reasons Winfield was playing the slot so much was so we could go man with 3 receiver sets. I am not sure if Izien is good in man. I mean, it can't be worse than DW making the wrong choice or abandoning him responsibilities in zone, ie. allowing Pitts to go by him when the QB is still more than 5 yards behind the line and 15 yards from you

Really? That's wild if that's true. Would love to see a source on that.

Even if it is true, you don't go out and SAY it to the media in the digital age. It makes scouting so simple even a caveman could do it. >5 DBs = zone. Even an Ohio State grad could figure that one out.

Source:

https://x.com/gregauman/status/1719329968407097836?s=20

So not quite what kaimaru said, but still....

[kaimaru]

Really? That's wild if that's true. Would love to see a source on that.

Even if it is true, you don't go out and SAY it to the media in the digital age. It makes scouting so simple even a caveman could do it. >5 DBs = zone. Even an Ohio State grad could figure that one out.

Source:

https://x.com/gregauman/status/1719329968407097836?s=20

So not quite what kaimaru said, but still....

Yes, I extrapolated the rest, but it's not hard to get to where I came from

[13F11B]

Wonder, after this game, how many people are starting to see what I have been seeing.

[BucsNBills]

Bad at 3rd downs. Can't stop a rookie QB from putting up historic numbers and a game winning drive. The team is like 3rd in the league for most penalties. Zero adjustments. The charisma, energy and passion of a WW2 era box of roofing nails.

So Bowles, i have a simple question for you....

[BuccaNOLEer]

Bad at 3rd downs. Can't stop a rookie QB from putting up historic numbers and a game winning drive. The team is like 3rd in the league for most penalties. Zero adjustments. The charisma, energy and passion of a WW2 era box of roofing nails.

So Bowles, i have a simple question for you....

He runs teams into the ground, that's what

[Jonny]

What the hell happened to Bowles and his defensive scheme @Cheb , @Nobody ? I believe in 2019 and a good part of 2020 Bucs were much more a press-man scheme with the DBs being exposed against receivers like Tyreek Hill. I remember them adapting zone slowly to account for those instances involving high powered offenses tearing them apart with athleticism or improvisation. From 2021 onwards I saw the trend of bend but don't break and things have gotten progressively worse since. Is it possible for a defensive coordinator to lose their roots and edge?

[Grahamburn]

We don't have anyone on the EDGE that can consistently win. 2020 had JPP and a younger healthier Shaq. You can be much more aggressive in the secondary when you know the QB can't have a tea party in the pocket.

We are getting carved to pieces right now no matter what we do. But, I'm also not seeing much in terms of adjustments to combat it.

[Doctor]

Isn't this what people expected to see?

People get mad when we "waste money" on vets who "take away valuable snaps" from the young guys behind them. And yet when the underdeveloped young guys look like underdeveloped young guys we get mad. The front seven seems stuck on "almost" as everyone seems to be doing their job just enough to not get it done. Everyone is content to do clean up duty on someone else work but no one is blowing in there and getting messy.

On the back end CD3 got absolutely torched and Neal continues to get picked on. My Brian Branch heart grows heavier by the day.

I don't know if Kacy still has play calling duties or not, and for the most part the play calls weren't bad. Until the 3rd quarter we were actually having a fine game on both sides. But they found a weakness they wanted to press, speed on CD3/Neal and they kept pressing it. Maybe there's something to be said about standing by your guy and what just benching or whatever, but sometimes you have to draw a line in the game. We chose to count on Davis shrugging off a bad play and getting back in there and the result was just another bad play and another.

[Cheb]

What the hell happened to Bowles and his defensive scheme @Cheb , @Nobody ? I believe in 2019 and a good part of 2020 Bucs were much more a press-man scheme with the DBs being exposed against receivers like Tyreek Hill. I remember them adapting zone slowly to account for those instances involving high powered offenses tearing them apart with athleticism or improvisation. From 2021 onwards I saw the trend of bend but don't break and things have gotten progressively worse since. Is it possible for a defensive coordinator to lose their roots and edge?

I've spoken about it in the gamethread, but Bowles has slowly morphed over time from a man-coverage blitz machine to a passive zone coordinator. And that's fine, so long as you have the personnel to match your playcalls. But we don't. We have two big and strong starting corners with great length... who can never use any of those things because they are playing soft and off zone coverage. They were basically built in a lab to bump-and-run, but we perplexingly don't ask them to do that. We have the corners to win a wrestling match, but Todd Bowles wants them to do ballet instead. Fuck if I know why.

As far as what went wrong vs the Texans, it's was multifactorial, as defensive problems always are:

- Soft zones in off coverage. Receivers can run their routes vs air, which is the quickest way to devolve your football game to a 7-on-7 contest, which relates to the above. Our physical guys who we draft to be physical are no longer allowed to be physical. Remember Brent Grimes? He's great at what we are trying to do. Our guys now? Not built for it.
- The pass rush with four had difficulties getting home, not necessarily because they suck but because CJ Stroud did a great job buying time with his legs while keeping his eyes downfield.
- The scouting report said that CJ Stroud was a beast vs the blitz, and I don't think we blitzed him very much secondary to that. Don't have the stats on it, but we chose to drop and cover the majority of the time. That may have been a mistake.
- Speaking of Stroud, credit where it's due he was fantastic. I feel that we were the backdrop for his coming-out party. Reminiscent of Kirk Cousins in the "You like that?" Game.

Those are the biggest issues I think. I could go on, but that's enough of a rant for now.

[Nobody]

I’ll just save myself time and what @Cheb wrote, @Jonny . The only thing I’ll add is that, when he was hired I did a breakdown of his scheme and his tendencies on some site. I don’t recall if it was Buczone or Pewter Report (or both…someone around here maybe read it and recalls). Regardless, one of the key pieces I stressed was that in both Arizona and NYJ, he started out as primarily Press Man on the back end and evolved to predominate Zone and Match Quarters over time…so expect that here…it’s like the death rattle of his teams and he has been killed for it by those fanbases/press.

Why that has happened in all three cases now is likely more sports psychology than X’s and O’s.

[Jonny]

It is coaching malpractice for Bowles to go with a scheme that puts his backend in a worse spot. Yes JPP and Barrett were pass rushing monsters when Bowles got to Tampa, but our linemen often don't get a shot at the QB when the QBs can unload the ball in a hurry right after the snap. Based on how the defense is being schemed, it feels like we are getting the worst out of both the front and back end.

[Doctor]

It's not one or the other. You play some of both every game. And both have their weaknesses where teams can attack. I think our tendencies and issues are definitely being exposed. Our offense and defense continue to lack synergy despite the offense's improved play.

A typical Bowles gameplan usually involves a lot of press man and blitzes early on. Then when their offense is in a panick trying to play catch up you can just rush your front 4 who have already won the mental battle over their OL early, drop everyone else into zone, and let the grave diggers come away with the nail in the coffin.

Obviously there is an ebb and flow with a variance from game to game. It's all about feeling out the situation and dialing it up at the right time. It looks like we've lost that feel. More so, I think there is added pressure to both 1) make up for an offense that has been lacking and 2) get that first INT. This has lead to us going too zone too much too early and players roaming outside their assignments, trying to be a hero, or not trusting thier teammates.

The good news is that a lot of this is correctable. The bad news is that it doesn't happen overnight. The extra bad news is how mad people will be if we do correct it.

[Jonny]

The good news is that a lot of this is correctable. The bad news is that it doesn't happen overnight. The extra bad news is how mad people will be if we do correct it.

Dude I understand you are the hopium druglord kingpin on this forum and I sort of like your optimism even when things are rock bottom. But we've had the same defensive coordinator for 5 seasons in a row. I don't know what is correctable. We either don't have the right players or the scheme or both. But I cannot wrap my head around how things can improve with the same coaches and personnel and why I must be patient in the process of correction.

[Kress]

It is coaching malpractice for Bowles to go with a scheme that puts his backend in a worse spot.

Oh, he's put his back end in a bad spot all right. It's starting to get mighty toasty.

[Doctor]

I get that. And it's easy to lose faith in a process that doesn't produce results.

Now, to be clear, just because something is correctable doesn't mean it will be corrected. It requires the locker room to still be bought in. Someone asked if Bowles as lost the locker room and I would say no. The team reflects the head coach and the culture of responsibility is strong in OBP. When you hear our guys in their interviews they talk about accountability, from the HC to the players.

Maybe I'll do a larger post, but in a nutshell, players stay bought in when things are 80/80. 80% of players are doing things the right way on a given play, and 80% of the time each of these young, developing guys are also doing their job right. When you have play after play where it's "Man, that was great if X just hadn't Z", and lockerroom believes that X will not always do Z, you have a locker room that is still bought in. And that's what we have here.

Now, will these X players stop their BS? I don't know. It's always easiest to say something will stay being what it is. It's why we love rookies, they come with clean slates. But we know real football doesn't work that way and players have peaks and valleys.

[mdb1958]

@IchabodCrane84

Did they try Kancey at both defensive end positions against Houston?

[13F11B]

The passion is just so... MISSING.

[13F11B]

[13F11B]

Glad to see the experts starting to see what I called out several games ago.

[Doctor]

Greg? What is it these experts are seeing, it's the stats of what has occurred. Which yeah, are dogshit.

[13F11B]

Greg? What is it these experts are seeing, it's the stats of what has occurred. Which yeah, are dogshit.

Take some cheese to go with your wine.

[Doctor]

Did you get hacked by mdb?

[13F11B]

Did you get hacked by mdb?

Did you get hacked by @Bootz or does your humor always fall flat?

[BucsNBills]

So for anyone that is wanting to retain Bowles after this season, what would it actually take for you to want him fired?

He could only manage 8 wins with Tom Fucking Brady under center and he just led a historically embarrassing loss vs the Texans.

So what would it take? Allowing a 2nd rookie QV to beat Strouds freshly minted record vs us?

[13F11B]

So for anyone that is wanting to retain Bowles after this season, what would it actually take for you to want him fired?

He could only manage 8 wins with Tom Fucking Brady under center and he just led a historically embarrassing loss vs the Texans.

So what would it take? Allowing a 2nd rookie QV to beat Strouds freshly minted record vs us?

I can't understand, given the defensive failure, why anyone would want this guy around. If the guy had not sucked with the Jets... I am not sure why anyone, other than a relative, would still feel he deserves to be HC. He seems like a really nice guy, but he is not a good HC.

[Doctor]

Maybe I'm old school but I think demanding to fire a HC 1.5 years into his tenure is just wild. Especially 8 games into his regime and staff. Like holy hell, how long will the next guy get?

The only reason to call for a HC head that early is if he's lost the locker room beyond repair. And I don't see anything close to that.

[13F11B]

Maybe I'm old school but I think demanding to fire a HC 1.5 years into his tenure is just wild. Especially 8 games into his regime and staff. Like holy hell, how long will the next guy get?

The only reason to call for a HC head that early is if he's lost the locker room beyond repair. And I don't see anything close to that.

If this was his first gig. Sure.
If this was a complete rebuild and we knew that, sure.
If the 'side' of the ball he coached as a coordinator was improving, sure.

Bowles has guided this team to getting worse, not better.

You are consistent though Doc. Gotta give you that.

[Pirate Life]

So Bowles had his press conference quote a week or so ago that they play zone when teams go five wide because they don't have enough DBs that are good at man coverage. Three guesses what the game winning TD offensive formation was...

[Miller4Prez64]

Bowles is 36-57 as a HC in the NFL, he just needs more time!

[13F11B]

Bowles is 36-57 as a HC in the NFL, he just needs more time!

Let him go do it as the special teams coach with Winston.

[mdb1958]

Did you get hacked by mdb?

Does Dean have the 3 week concussion or the 5 week concussion?

[mdb1958]

Did you get hacked by mdb?

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