Who's the 2nd?

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Who's the 2nd best QB today

Josh Allen
0
No votes
Joe Burrow
6
40%
Justin Herbert
2
13%
Jalen Hurts
0
No votes
Lamar Jackson
0
No votes
Tua Tagovailoa
7
47%
 
Total votes: 15

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Who's the 2nd?

Post by Bootz »

Last seasons debate about who the "3rd" best QB in football currently was fun filled and very spirited.

http://www.itsabucslife.com/viewtopic.php?t=941

But the only thing that happened was Patrick Mahomes further separated himself from the rest of the pack while Josh Allen proved he wasn't ready for the mantle bestowed upon him and he moved back a lot to the pack.

So now I change it up and ask who's the 2nd best QB in football? There are certainly a lot of candidates who could take than mantle. We dive into those worthy of consideration.


(In alphabetical order)

Josh Allen

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Allen was handpicked by the media and football pundits and the darling selection to supplant Patrick Mahomes as the best QB in football. What's not to like? Big arm. Tremendous size and toughness. Highly productive. He "looks" the part.

But 2022 showed perhaps the pressure of the hype got to him. Allen led the league in turnovers with 19. He also led QBs in red zone turnovers as well. His accuracy also dipped some as well. But there's no denying the talent. He should be better.

Joe Burrow

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He might be the 2023 Josh Allen as in he's the "next in line" to supplant Mahomes. Same formula as Allen honestly. People gave him that title because he lost a close playoff game to Mahomes like Allen.

Burrow doesn't have the physical gifts most QBs do. Arm is okay. Athletism is decent. But he's extremely smart and mostly makes great decisions with the football. Plus he is as accurate as it comes with ball placement.

Justin Herbert

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From a physical standpoint, Herbert is as impressive as it gets. Big arm, great size, athletic, productive. Week to week his statline is always going to impress.

But it hasn't translated into much success. He's a .500 QB. He hasn't the ability to elevate those around him. And his play drops considerably late in games. Still though, the tape don't lie and he shows up on game day.

Jalen Hurts

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Hurts broke out in 2022 and put together an impressive year. Finished 2nd in MVP voting and made it to the Superbowl. He took a huge step as a passer.

But that "huge" step probably highlighted just how far back he was in terms of QB skills. He's not the greatest thrower of the ball. Accuracy comes and goes. He's mostly careful with the football and has good awareness and decision making.

Lamar Jackson

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He's the only guy on this list who can say he's won an MVP and has been named 1st team All-Pro. But ironically he's one of the most polarizing QBs. He is elite at running the football. Puts on a show and is faster and more elusive than a lot of RBs & WRs. He's also a great passer and highly productive.

But that running ability has led to a lot of injuries in his career. He also is a step behind the others on this list in terms of passing, although not much. And he wins games. A lot of games.

Tua Tagovailoa

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Easily the most hated on QB in football. People look for reasons as to why Tua is a bust. He always get labeled as "Miami's mistake" because they drafted him and not Justin Herbert. But he continues to shut doubters up. He finished last year #1 in passer rating and has taken steps each year in growing more comfortable.

But the BIG issue with him is the injuries. Numerous surgeries in college. 3 serious concussions last year. When he's healthy, he's looked at times other worldly. His accuracy and ball placement is top notch. Arm isn't great though and some of his deep balls lead to unnecessary picks. But he's currently at the helm of the best offense in football.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by Snake »

I'm thinking healthy Burrow.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by Snake »

It's really

S Tier
Mahomes

A Tier
Herbert
Burrow
Lamar
Tua
Allen


I think Herbert, Burrow, Lamar, and Allen are clearly more athletic than Tua and have more portability to other schemes. But Tua is the one blowing up the league statistically. put a guy like Burrow in Miami and he's shitting on errrbody too. Tua is legit though. That release is crazy.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by Xandtar »

Joe Burrow won us a National Championship and he's right up there in the A Tier, so he's my guy until someone else approaches S Tier.

Yes that makes me a homer. So what, it's just a game.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by Bootz »

Snake wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:35 pm It's really

S Tier
Mahomes

A Tier
Herbert
Burrow
Lamar
Tua
Allen


I think Herbert, Burrow, Lamar, and Allen are clearly more athletic than Tua and have more portability to other schemes. But Tua is the one blowing up the league statistically. put a guy like Burrow in Miami and he's shitting on errrbody too. Tua is legit though. That release is crazy.
Tua's release and processing speed are why I'd say he can do fine in other systems. Thats always been an underrated part of his game. You should take a look at some of the times he's throwing the ball before the receiver even appears to be going in that direction.

Allen, I don't know about his portability. He's declined as a passer since his breakout 2020 season. He doesn't see the field as well as the others do. And man, that accuracy comes and goes.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by GoldenBudda »

If I needed to choose one to play this year only its Tua. I just have no confidence in his ability to stay healthy.

If its a 5 year deal give me Herbert. Though its pretty much a toss up with Hurts. I'd take either of them.

Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson and Joe Burrow are fine QB's as well. We'd love to have any of them.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by Cheb »

Snake wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:35 pm It's really

S Tier
Mahomes

A Tier
Herbert
Burrow
Lamar
Tua
Allen


I think Herbert, Burrow, Lamar, and Allen are clearly more athletic than Tua and have more portability to other schemes. But Tua is the one blowing up the league statistically. put a guy like Burrow in Miami and he's shitting on errrbody too. Tua is legit though. That release is crazy.
I agree with this, and Tua has my vote as the #2 guy. He ain't perfect but he's putting on a clinic down there in Miami. Yes, he seems to have a system built around his strengths, and yes he has both a Cheetah and Penguin which is hard to defend just by itself, but the man is in the MVP discussion (current favorite?) for a reason.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by Doctor »

Healthy and in that scheme, Tua.

In a vacuum, Herbert.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by Bootz »

I said last year it was Tua. He showed why "Tank for Tua" was ever coined. All he's done is progress each year he's been in the league. Last year we got to see what Miami looked like without him and they looked horrible. 8-5 with him. 1-4 without him.


That hasn't changed. He's gotten even better now that he's had the same OC in consecutive seasons for the 1st time. He won't wow you with a huge arm like the others sans Burrow. But he's more accurate, has arguably the fastest release in football, processes the game at an elite speed, and generally does not turn the ball over a ton.

As long as he can stay healthy, I think he's #2 without question.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by uscbucsfan1 »

Bootz wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 5:30 pm I said last year it was Tua. He showed why "Tank for Tua" was ever coined. All he's done is progress each year he's been in the league. Last year we got to see what Miami looked like without him and they looked horrible. 8-5 with him. 1-4 without him.


That hasn't changed. He's gotten even better now that he's had the same OC in consecutive seasons for the 1st time. He won't wow you with a huge arm like the others sans Burrow. But he's more accurate, has arguably the fastest release in football, processes the game at an elite speed, and generally does not turn the ball over a ton.

As long as he can stay healthy, I think he's #2 without question.
Tua's arm is fine, too.

It's not a powerful arm, but he can certainly push the ball 40 yards with zip and he has the zip for tight windows and can hit that 18-20 yard out.

He's not Herbert, Mahomes, Allen, etc...but I stand by my pre-draft statement that his arm is as strong if not stronger than Burrow.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by Bootz »

uscbucsfan1 wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 5:41 pm
Bootz wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 5:30 pm I said last year it was Tua. He showed why "Tank for Tua" was ever coined. All he's done is progress each year he's been in the league. Last year we got to see what Miami looked like without him and they looked horrible. 8-5 with him. 1-4 without him.


That hasn't changed. He's gotten even better now that he's had the same OC in consecutive seasons for the 1st time. He won't wow you with a huge arm like the others sans Burrow. But he's more accurate, has arguably the fastest release in football, processes the game at an elite speed, and generally does not turn the ball over a ton.

As long as he can stay healthy, I think he's #2 without question.
Tua's arm is fine, too.

It's not a powerful arm, but he can certainly push the ball 40 yards with zip and he has the zip for tight windows and can hit that 18-20 yard out.

He's not Herbert, Mahomes, Allen, etc...but I stand by my pre-draft statement that his arm is as strong if not stronger than Burrow.
Arm strength is not one of Burrow's strong attributes. His arm is mostly average to be honest. But where he excels is he doesn't try to make throws he shouldn't. He's extremely smart and has elite accuracy and touch.

Tua's arm is good enough to make all of the throws in football and he's displayed that. He's very close to Hurts in that regard.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by uscbucsfan1 »

Bootz wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 5:53 pm
uscbucsfan1 wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 5:41 pm

Tua's arm is fine, too.

It's not a powerful arm, but he can certainly push the ball 40 yards with zip and he has the zip for tight windows and can hit that 18-20 yard out.

He's not Herbert, Mahomes, Allen, etc...but I stand by my pre-draft statement that his arm is as strong if not stronger than Burrow.
Arm strength is not one of Burrow's strong attributes. His arm is mostly average to be honest. But where he excels is he doesn't try to make throws he shouldn't. He's extremely smart and has elite accuracy and touch.

Tua's arm is good enough to make all of the throws in football and he's displayed that. He's very close to Hurts in that regard.
I really enjoy watching Tua play. He steps up nice in the pocket and he gets rid of the ball so fast. He trust his WRs and throws with incredible anticipation. As long as he's healthy, that team is going to keep scoring.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by BucsNBills »

Personally, I would take Herbert over any of them.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by _MB_ »

I like a lot of these guys for a lot of different reasons.

Some of those guys aren't the second best QB in their division tho.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by Bootz »

_MB_ wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 8:42 pm I like a lot of these guys for a lot of different reasons.

Some of those guys aren't the second best QB in their division tho.
Any missing names you think deserve consideration?
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by _MB_ »

Bootz wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 8:46 pm
_MB_ wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 8:42 pm I like a lot of these guys for a lot of different reasons.

Some of those guys aren't the second best QB in their division tho.
Any missing names you think deserve consideration?
So soon.

The rookies are getting their feet wet and I wouldn't put Baker or Geno in consideration for #2.

It should be Russell Wilson but he got some puss and it broke his ass.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by Bootz »

_MB_ wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 8:50 pm
Bootz wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 8:46 pm

Any missing names you think deserve consideration?
So soon.

The rookies are getting their feet wet and I wouldn't put Baker or Geno in consideration for #2.

It should be Russell Wilson but he got some puss and it broke his ass.
Ummm you're borderline going mdb here. I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Also, I'm sure Russell Wilson isn't the only QB or NFL player to get married or have kids in the past few years.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by 13F11B »

Where is Patrick Mahomes?
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by Bootz »

13F11B wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:11 pm Where is Patrick Mahomes?
You don't include the best in a discussion about #2
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by 13F11B »

Bootz wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:12 pm
13F11B wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:11 pm Where is Patrick Mahomes?
You don't include the best in a discussion about #2
So, you made that assumption for everyone. I see.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by Phantom »

13F11B wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:17 pm
Bootz wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:12 pm

You don't include the best in a discussion about #2
So, you made that assumption for everyone. I see.
As usual
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by Bootz »

13F11B wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:17 pm
Bootz wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:12 pm

You don't include the best in a discussion about #2
So, you made that assumption for everyone. I see.
What assumption?
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by uscbucsfan1 »

13F11B wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:11 pm Where is Patrick Mahomes?
The guy has 2 MVPs, 2 SB, 2 SB MVPs, has played in 5 staright divison title games and is a lock for the HOF already.

There's no debate. It's like the people still arguing that Montana or Manning were better than Brady.

He's the best...just like during Brady's career players had streaks of playing better, but he was the best. None of the other players, outside of Lamar, have any individual or team hardware.

People hate/ hated LeBron, Brady, Jordan, Mahomes, even Steph now, because they hate greatness in the moment. We see it in every sport.

Hell, Brady was voted most disliked player in the league and people still say he was a system QB or he was overrated. That's the same level of idiocy saying Mahomes isn't number 1 right now.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by _MB_ »

Bootz wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:04 pm
_MB_ wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 8:50 pm
So soon.

The rookies are getting their feet wet and I wouldn't put Baker or Geno in consideration for #2.

It should be Russell Wilson but he got some puss and it broke his ass.
Ummm you're borderline going mdb here. I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Also, I'm sure Russell Wilson isn't the only QB or NFL player to get married or have kids in the past few years.
He just doesn't seem hungry. Things were weird in Denver before Peyton got there.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by 13F11B »

Bootz wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:34 pm
13F11B wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:17 pm

So, you made that assumption for everyone. I see.
What assumption?
Are you really that dense?
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by 13F11B »

uscbucsfan1 wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 10:35 pm
13F11B wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:11 pm Where is Patrick Mahomes?
The guy has 2 MVPs, 2 SB, 2 SB MVPs, has played in 5 staright divison title games and is a lock for the HOF already.

There's no debate. It's like the people still arguing that Montana or Manning were better than Brady.

He's the best...just like during Brady's career players had streaks of playing better, but he was the best. None of the other players, outside of Lamar, have any individual or team hardware.

People hate/ hated LeBron, Brady, Jordan, Mahomes, even Steph now, because they hate greatness in the moment. We see it in every sport.

Hell, Brady was voted most disliked player in the league and people still say he was a system QB or he was overrated. That's the same level of idiocy saying Mahomes isn't number 1 right now.
Awards and championships are nice, but for me that doesn't always mean best. I would never say Brady was a better QB than Dan Marino despite the difference in awards, etc. I understand the view, but there is no way Dan Marino is worse than Trent DIlfer or Brad Johnson (they both have rings that Dan does not).
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by uscbucsfan1 »

13F11B wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 6:59 am
uscbucsfan1 wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 10:35 pm

The guy has 2 MVPs, 2 SB, 2 SB MVPs, has played in 5 staright divison title games and is a lock for the HOF already.

There's no debate. It's like the people still arguing that Montana or Manning were better than Brady.

He's the best...just like during Brady's career players had streaks of playing better, but he was the best. None of the other players, outside of Lamar, have any individual or team hardware.

People hate/ hated LeBron, Brady, Jordan, Mahomes, even Steph now, because they hate greatness in the moment. We see it in every sport.

Hell, Brady was voted most disliked player in the league and people still say he was a system QB or he was overrated. That's the same level of idiocy saying Mahomes isn't number 1 right now.
Awards and championships are nice, but for me that doesn't always mean best. I would never say Brady was a better QB than Dan Marino despite the difference in awards, etc. I understand the view, but there is no way Dan Marino is worse than Trent DIlfer or Brad Johnson (they both have rings that Dan does not).
Just using Super Bowls and Dilfer/ Johnson is a strawman.

Mahomes has stats, advanced stats, pressure situations, over coming in game diversity, and film backing up his play as well. You propose the argument like Mahomes may have been carried, but that's obviously not the case. He's got the film and individual stats that rival or surpass anyone in history at this stage of his career.

Again, making an argument that any of the others on this list are above him is just hating greatness. And while Marino was a more talented passer, he wasn't a better QB than Brady. Just as Mahomes is a much more talented QB than Brady, he's not close to surpassing him.

Every other QB on that list, at this point, has major question marks in their game and/or legacy. Mahomes is already a HOFer. He doesn't. That doesn't mean that one of them doesn't or can't complete their game and take the next step to eventually surpass him, but it's a leap to assume they will at this point.

It's like in basketball. Every single year we see a list of potential players that people swear are better than LeBron...they want someone to be better than him...in the end the don't live up to that promise and the next player is picked. People just want to devalue LeBron. They did this with Jordan, Kobe, etc. It's part of sports...when someone rises to the best in the league, they earn as many followers as haters and those vocal minority of haters will they to discredit anything they do.

There's no logical or rational argument that any QB on that list has had a better career as a QB to this point. They will and have all had streaks of better play, but not the consistency, sustainability, or peaks.

This doesn't mean Mahomes is perfect or doesn't have bad games, but those bad games will happen with every athlete in history.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by Bootz »

13F11B wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 6:56 am
Bootz wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:34 pm

What assumption?
Are you really that dense?
Just wondering why you're being so passive aggressive about the topic here.

The OP lines out the parameters and why Mahomes is not included. It's universally accepted that he is the best QB in football and he's backed that up now for several seasons.

You have another name, say so. If you came here just to cause conflict, say so.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by 13F11B »

Bootz wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 7:19 am Just wondering why you're being so passive aggressive about the topic here.
Fine. I will be blunt. I personally think the discussion and debate is stupid. Football, more than most sports, is a team game. We all saw that first hand as fans of the Buccaneers with Tom Brady. Brady is the lauded as the GOAT, but he could not win the Super Bowl in his second season once the Buccaneers had issues at the receiver position. Mahommes could not be at the Buccaneers when his offensive line was battered.

MVPs, wins, All Pro, etc... those are the products of the player AND their team.

You can have your discussion, but I do not believe Mahommes is the best QB.

I personally, would rank the QBs Burrow, Herbert, Mahommes... after that it gets a bit foggy. Jackon, Hurts, Tua, Allen all enter the conversation.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by Bootz »

13F11B wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 7:42 am
Bootz wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 7:19 am Just wondering why you're being so passive aggressive about the topic here.
Fine. I will be blunt. I personally think the discussion and debate is stupid. Football, more than most sports, is a team game. We all saw that first hand as fans of the Buccaneers with Tom Brady. Brady is the lauded as the GOAT, but he could not win the Super Bowl in his second season once the Buccaneers had issues at the receiver position. Mahommes could not be at the Buccaneers when his offensive line was battered.

MVPs, wins, All Pro, etc... those are the products of the player AND their team.

You can have your discussion, but I do not believe Mahommes is the best QB.

I personally, would rank the QBs Burrow, Herbert, Mahommes... after that it gets a bit foggy. Jackon, Hurts, Tua, Allen all enter the conversation.
You don't think Mahomes is the best. You think the ranking system is stupid. BUT you believe Burrow and Herbert are better.

Okay, let's roll with that. What are you basing this off of? Your mention of Brady is odd. You said that championships and awards and fine and all but don't tell the story....But then you criticize Brady for not winning a 2nd ring once his best receiver goes down?

I will be honest, that doesn't make much sense. You're kind of talking out of both sides of your mouth there.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by Grahamburn »

Bootz wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 8:46 pm
_MB_ wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 8:42 pm I like a lot of these guys for a lot of different reasons.

Some of those guys aren't the second best QB in their division tho.
Any missing names you think deserve consideration?
Stafford gets a mention from me for body of work.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by 13F11B »

Bootz wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 7:44 am
13F11B wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 7:42 am

Fine. I will be blunt. I personally think the discussion and debate is stupid. Football, more than most sports, is a team game. We all saw that first hand as fans of the Buccaneers with Tom Brady. Brady is the lauded as the GOAT, but he could not win the Super Bowl in his second season once the Buccaneers had issues at the receiver position. Mahommes could not be at the Buccaneers when his offensive line was battered.

MVPs, wins, All Pro, etc... those are the products of the player AND their team.

You can have your discussion, but I do not believe Mahommes is the best QB.

I personally, would rank the QBs Burrow, Herbert, Mahommes... after that it gets a bit foggy. Jackon, Hurts, Tua, Allen all enter the conversation.
You don't think Mahomes is the best. You think the ranking system is stupid. BUT you believe Burrow and Herbert are better.

Okay, let's roll with that. What are you basing this off of? Your mention of Brady is odd. You said that championships and awards and fine and all but don't tell the story....But then you criticize Brady for not winning a 2nd ring once his best receiver goes down?

I will be honest, that doesn't make much sense. You're kind of talking out of both sides of your mouth there.
I am sorry that you do not understand what I am saying. I do not have the patience, given your history, to try and explain.

Example: " I personally think the discussion and debate is stupid" you translate this to: "You think the ranking system is stupid"

Not the same thing. Its a semantics black hole with you. You have your opinion and you will brow beat people with personal attacks until they agree with you. I have no energy to engage with that behavior.
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by Bootz »

13F11B wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:13 am
Bootz wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 7:44 am

You don't think Mahomes is the best. You think the ranking system is stupid. BUT you believe Burrow and Herbert are better.

Okay, let's roll with that. What are you basing this off of? Your mention of Brady is odd. You said that championships and awards and fine and all but don't tell the story....But then you criticize Brady for not winning a 2nd ring once his best receiver goes down?

I will be honest, that doesn't make much sense. You're kind of talking out of both sides of your mouth there.
I am sorry that you do not understand what I am saying. I do not have the patience, given your history, to try and explain.
And that shows you only came here for chaos.
Most hated man in America.
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13F11B
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by 13F11B »

Bootz wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:15 am
13F11B wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:13 am

I am sorry that you do not understand what I am saying. I do not have the patience, given your history, to try and explain.
And that shows you only came here for chaos.
No, I expressed an opinion. You did not like that. As I said, I do not have the patience to deal with you today. Enjoy your conversation. Stop worrying about me and get back to it.
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Bootz
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Re: Who's the 2nd?

Post by Bootz »

13F11B wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:18 am
Bootz wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:15 am

And that shows you only came here for chaos.
No, I expressed an opinion. You did not like that. As I said, I do not have the patience to deal with you today. Enjoy your conversation. Stop worrying about me and get back to it.
I never said I disliked it. I asked for alternatives. You decided to make it personal.
13F11B wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:17 pm
Bootz wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:12 pm

You don't include the best in a discussion about #2
So, you made that assumption for everyone. I see.
13F11B wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 6:56 am
Bootz wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:34 pm

What assumption?
Are you really that dense?
You talk about "my history" yet you're the one slinging mud for no reason instead of offer an alternative or entering healthy debate or discussion.
Most hated man in America.
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