Opening W/L odds has Buccaneers as bottom 4 team next season

[Snake]

Ages at 5 year mark of being a HC:

Shula - 37
Noll - 41
Walsh - 46
Levy - 36, if you include HS/NCAA HC. 38, if you include college and no HS. 52, if you include CFL+NFL, but no HS/NCAA.
Belichick - 43
Landry - 41

Toilet = 59

Given we just won a chip with a 68 year old HC, you'd think you'd have more sense than to make a lame appeal to agism... and yet....

You mean golf cart driver-in-chief?

Dude was average at best. Carried by the best player of all time and a talented roster that stayed healthy. His coaching wasn’t good enough when he didn’t have damn near perfect health and players.

Fuck him. He vouched for shitty ass Bowles for HC.

[Bootz]

Ages at 5 year mark of being a HC:

Shula - 37
Noll - 41
Walsh - 46
Levy - 36, if you include HS/NCAA HC. 38, if you include college and no HS. 52, if you include CFL+NFL, but no HS/NCAA.
Belichick - 43
Landry - 41

Toilet = 59

This highlights an entirely different problem the NFL has....

[MJW]

Firstly, I would argue that Todd Bowles is debatably a top-ten defensive mind in the NFL, and retaining a coach of that caliber is the move of a smart organization.

I agree, he's a brilliant defensive coordinator. He should be mentioned with guys like Wade Phillips, Dick LeBeau, Vic Fangio, Buddy Ryan, Romeo Crennel, etc.

I think my point is clear.

Second and more importantly, I would argue that last year Todd Bowles wasn't the sole head coach on this team -- he was co-managing the Buccaneers with Byron Leftwich, with a very strict division of labor and responsibilities. Leftwich would be a lead weight around the neck of even the best head coaches in the league, and his stubbornness in scheme, inability to create a running game, and inflexibility in playcalling directly torpedoed Brady's final season. One also wonders how much Bruce Arians is putting his thumb on the scales for the balance of power at One Buc, but any supposition on that topic is just idle and ultimately unprovable banter.

Which part of that is supposed to make me think he's the guy to lead a team? He sounds like a toady.

Thirdly, the mismatch last year between the offensive scheme and defensive philosophy was the antithesis of complimentary football. The offense could not maintain time of possession or dictate the flow of the game in any way, it could not build a lead nor maintain one. As a defensive coordinator, when your offense cannot do any of those things, your main job is damage control. Playcalling tilts towards being less aggressive because your two options are either die slowly or die fast, and 9 outta 10 coaches will pick the former.

I mean, this is true, but again, he's not the defensive coordinator - he's the head coach. The "Buc" stops with him. Unless it doesn't, in which case, again, he sounds like a lil' bitch.

Fourthly, you have to give a guy some time to build the team in his image. The first year of any NFL head coach's tenure, he's coaching the last guys' team. The second year, it's starting to look more like the squad he wants in his head. By the third year, he should have accountability for the team that he's built. Unless the team stops playing for their head coach, I think that you need to give that coach time to do his thing. The team is still fighting for Bowles, and I would give him the courtesy of more time to build up the squad in his image.

You could probably sell me on this if not for his tenure with the Jets, where his bland, mush personality WAS perfectly reflected by the bland, mush, mediocre Jets. You can say that maybe he learned something between now and then, but there was zero evidence of that last year.

Fifthly, the Buccaneers have the most dead cap in the NFL right now, which absolutely is hamstringing Bowles' ability to field a team. Such is the price of pushing for Superbowls in the Brady window, but I will not punish Bowles because he has to pay that bill now. Indeed, looking at the numbers is crazy. The Buccaneers spend more money in dead cap than we do on the entire offense right now. Looked at another way, the Cleveland Browns spend nearly as much money paying just their offense as the Bucs spend on their entire team. Letting Bowles spend real money to bring in guys that compliment his squad is only fair, imo.

This wasn't the problem last year. Yes, the cap affected depth. But he was handed a roster loaded with stars and quarterbacked by a legend. He turned them into mediocre mush.

Does Todd Bowles have his problems, for sure. Do I wish he would show at least a modicum of interest and responsibility for the offensive side of the ball, also yes. But I wouldn't fire him just yet. Were it up to me, I would give him this season and the next as well, when the cap is reset and we can compete at a top level without the hamstringing of past pursuits of Superbowl glory.

There's zero evidence he'd know what to do with it.

This entire "Arians hanging around, Bowles being the Gimp to BA's Zedd, trying desperately to pretend we're still contenders" has the stink of death. It would be a tough situation for a real head coach to overcome.

This will end in a grotesque disaster season and Bowles will be fired the nanosecond it's over, if he makes it that long.

[Bootz]

Given we just won a chip with a 68 year old HC, you'd think you'd have more sense than to make a lame appeal to agism... and yet....

You mean golf cart driver-in-chief?

Dude was average at best. Carried by the best player of all time and a talented roster that stayed healthy. His coaching wasn’t good enough when he didn’t have damn near perfect health and players.

Fuck him. He vouched for shitty ass Bowles for HC.

So Brady was good enough to carry Arians but not good enough to carry Bowles?

This goal post shuffling is getting interesting.

[Sdbucs]

You mean golf cart driver-in-chief?

Dude was average at best. Carried by the best player of all time and a talented roster that stayed healthy. His coaching wasn’t good enough when he didn’t have damn near perfect health and players.

Fuck him. He vouched for shitty ass Bowles for HC.

So Brady was good enough to carry Arians but not good enough to carry Bowles?

This goal post shuffling is getting interesting.

Bowles was a good DC - seen on multiple teams
Bowles not a good HC - seen on multiple teams

Plenty of coordinators don’t succeed as HC

[Doctor]

You mean golf cart driver-in-chief?

Dude was average at best. Carried by the best player of all time and a talented roster that stayed healthy. His coaching wasn’t good enough when he didn’t have damn near perfect health and players.

Fuck him. He vouched for shitty ass Bowles for HC.

So Brady was good enough to carry Arians but not good enough to carry Bowles?

This goal post shuffling is getting interesting.

The goal posts are always moving with the doom and gloomers. They credit one person to discredit the next and then with the other side of their mouths do the inverse in another thread.

Everyone is a luck hack who got carried by someone else.

[Grahamburn]

Zed’s dead, baby. Zed’s dead.

[MJW]

So Brady was good enough to carry Arians but not good enough to carry Bowles?

This goal post shuffling is getting interesting.

The goal posts are always moving with the doom and gloomers. They credit one person to discredit the next and then with the other side of their mouths do the inverse in another thread.

Everyone is a luck hack who got carried by someone else.

The goal posts are always moving with the Kimmie Schmidts. They blame one person to credit the next and then with the other side of their mouths do the inverse in another thread.

[MJW]

Bowles was a good DC - seen on multiple teams
Bowles not a good HC - seen on multiple teams

It's not complicated.

5 years as a head coach.
4 losing seasons.
3 of those seasons with 5 wins or less.
And the Captain of the most disappointing season in Buccaneers history.

He has given his defenders nothing to work with in a head coaching capacity. Nothing.

[Doctor]

Show us on the doll where Bowles touched you.

[Snake]

Show us on the doll where Bowles touched you.

*points to loss column*

[Bootz]

Show us on the doll where Bowles touched you.

*points to loss column*

@Snake- 1
@Doctor- 0

[Doctor]

Show us on the doll where Bowles touched you.

*points to loss column*

Great response. But given the hysterics from MJW and others around Arains after his 9-loss season, I'm going to say false flag.

[MJW]

Show us on the doll where Bowles touched you.

So...you're on the football board...posting dozens of times a day about this team...and you're talking shit because other people are displeased that the coach of that team is terrible and just got done wasting a year of our lives?

Yesterday it was generic ad hom crap, today it's, "you care that our coach sucks lol" bullcrap...I expect tomorrow you'll be accusing everyone of racism, and by Friday you'll be calling people Hitler.

[MJW]

Show us on the doll where Bowles touched you.

*points to loss column*

There's no form of message board life lower than the, "You care about this thing that we're all here to talk about?" clown.

[Al Bundy]

Firstly, I would argue that Todd Bowles is debatably a top-ten defensive mind in the NFL, and retaining a coach of that caliber is the move of a smart organization.

I agree, he's a brilliant defensive coordinator. He should be mentioned with guys like Wade Phillips, Dick LeBeau, Vic Fangio, Buddy Ryan, Romeo Crennel, etc.

I think my point is clear.

Second and more importantly, I would argue that last year Todd Bowles wasn't the sole head coach on this team -- he was co-managing the Buccaneers with Byron Leftwich, with a very strict division of labor and responsibilities. Leftwich would be a lead weight around the neck of even the best head coaches in the league, and his stubbornness in scheme, inability to create a running game, and inflexibility in playcalling directly torpedoed Brady's final season. One also wonders how much Bruce Arians is putting his thumb on the scales for the balance of power at One Buc, but any supposition on that topic is just idle and ultimately unprovable banter.

Which part of that is supposed to make me think he's the guy to lead a team? He sounds like a toady.

Thirdly, the mismatch last year between the offensive scheme and defensive philosophy was the antithesis of complimentary football. The offense could not maintain time of possession or dictate the flow of the game in any way, it could not build a lead nor maintain one. As a defensive coordinator, when your offense cannot do any of those things, your main job is damage control. Playcalling tilts towards being less aggressive because your two options are either die slowly or die fast, and 9 outta 10 coaches will pick the former.

I mean, this is true, but again, he's not the defensive coordinator - he's the head coach. The "Buc" stops with him. Unless it doesn't, in which case, again, he sounds like a lil' bitch.

Fourthly, you have to give a guy some time to build the team in his image. The first year of any NFL head coach's tenure, he's coaching the last guys' team. The second year, it's starting to look more like the squad he wants in his head. By the third year, he should have accountability for the team that he's built. Unless the team stops playing for their head coach, I think that you need to give that coach time to do his thing. The team is still fighting for Bowles, and I would give him the courtesy of more time to build up the squad in his image.

You could probably sell me on this if not for his tenure with the Jets, where his bland, mush personality WAS perfectly reflected by the bland, mush, mediocre Jets. You can say that maybe he learned something between now and then, but there was zero evidence of that last year.

Fifthly, the Buccaneers have the most dead cap in the NFL right now, which absolutely is hamstringing Bowles' ability to field a team. Such is the price of pushing for Superbowls in the Brady window, but I will not punish Bowles because he has to pay that bill now. Indeed, looking at the numbers is crazy. The Buccaneers spend more money in dead cap than we do on the entire offense right now. Looked at another way, the Cleveland Browns spend nearly as much money paying just their offense as the Bucs spend on their entire team. Letting Bowles spend real money to bring in guys that compliment his squad is only fair, imo.

This wasn't the problem last year. Yes, the cap affected depth. But he was handed a roster loaded with stars and quarterbacked by a legend. He turned them into mediocre mush.

Does Todd Bowles have his problems, for sure. Do I wish he would show at least a modicum of interest and responsibility for the offensive side of the ball, also yes. But I wouldn't fire him just yet. Were it up to me, I would give him this season and the next as well, when the cap is reset and we can compete at a top level without the hamstringing of past pursuits of Superbowl glory.

There's zero evidence he'd know what to do with it.

This entire "Arians hanging around, Bowles being the Gimp to BA's Zedd, trying desperately to pretend we're still contenders" has the stink of death. It would be a tough situation for a real head coach to overcome.

This will end in a grotesque disaster season and Bowles will be fired the nanosecond it's over, if he makes it that long.

If Bowles and the Buccaneers finish with a top 5 pick then the franchise will be back to losing for another almost 20 years.

[Buc2]

*points to loss column*

Great response. But given the hysterics from MJW and others around Arains after his 9-loss season, I'm going to say false flag.

Setting aside your misogyny for a minute, until Bowles proves otherwise, nothing MJW has said about him is wrong. That she shows her disdain more vehemently than others is perfectly fine. Even warranted in some cases like this one. Not only was Bowles directly responsible for losing a shot at a 3rd NFC Championship and possible 3rd SB berth in 2021 he was also Lord and Commander of last year's horror show.

One thing is certain. No one can accuse MJW of not being a fan of this team. And she's more than earned the right to call out underperformers like Bowles whenever and however she sees fit.

[Doctor]

Setting aside your wild accusation of misogyny for a minute, at no point did I say MJW is not a fan of the team. She's one of my all time favorite posters and I hope she knows that by now.

With that said she, like others, has a tendency to go full Chicken Little that devolves to just trashing. Football has left the building until we reset.

Being fans of a historically losing team ain't easy. Worse they've become so obsessed with the dream of cleaning house, getting a new hot shot HC who drafts himself the next HoF QB first overall. Sure, it's a rare pipedream that only happens once every 20 years, but they are convinced they are due. How many times did we think it was our time? Doug, Vinny, Steve*, Trent, Josh, Jameis, only to be denied and worse see THREE of them win Super Bowls with other teams. It's cruel. Worse still we got to witness the greatest outlier of all time for 20 years in Brady and BB.

So here we stand, once again banging the drum to clean house and "reset". Take another shot at the dream.

Every thread:
"Good signing, we needed depth there"
"For what? Losing?"
"This is going to be a fierce battle in TC"
"They're all trash and we're going to suck"
"I loved this kids tape but these things concern me"
"Doesn't matter Toilet face won't know what to do with him"

And I get it. I'd love to be in the Bengals shoes. I would. But that's not the only way to win chips in this league. Given how we won ours you'd think this would have set in by now but it hasn't. So any attempt at giving it an honest go is attacked.

Do I feel great about our chances this year? Not really. I'll never feel as good as 2020 again. But about as good as the early Dungy years, where we went .500 over the first 3 seasons- what MJW was described as "the worst of all sins". And like Dungy I'd like to see this play out a lot more, especially given the defense that has been built here. We have great DBs at the top, 3 all-pro LBs, a star DT, and a couple of project first rounders due to break out.

But no, unless you're wasting 4 years on a Freeman/Winston rookie hero project, you better be tanking and demanding everyone's head.

[Selmon Rules]

Show us on the doll where Bowles touched you.

*points to loss column*

Now that there is funny

[Kress]

Show us on the doll where Bowles touched you.

So...you're on the football board...posting dozens of times a day about this team...and you're talking shit because other people are displeased that the coach of that team is terrible and just got done wasting a year of our lives?

Yesterday it was generic ad hom crap, today it's, "you care that our coach sucks lol" bullcrap...I expect tomorrow you'll be accusing everyone of racism, and by Friday you'll be calling people Hitler.

But.... You're literally Hitler.

Literally.

[MJW]

Setting aside your wild accusation of misogyny for a minute, at no point did I say MJW is not a fan of the team. She's one of my all time favorite posters and I hope she knows that by now.

With that said she, like others, has a tendency to go full Chicken Little that devolves to just trashing. Football has left the building until we reset.

Being fans of a historically losing team ain't easy. Worse they've become so obsessed with the dream of cleaning house, getting a new hot shot HC who drafts himself the next HoF QB first overall. Sure, it's a rare pipedream that only happens once every 20 years, but they are convinced they are due. How many times did we think it was our time? Doug, Vinny, Steve*, Trent, Josh, Jameis, only to be denied and worse see THREE of them win Super Bowls with other teams. It's cruel. Worse still we got to witness the greatest outlier of all time for 20 years in Brady and BB.

So here we stand, once again banging the drum to clean house and "reset". Take another shot at the dream.

Every thread:
"Good signing, we needed depth there"
"For what? Losing?"
"This is going to be a fierce battle in TC"
"They're all trash and we're going to suck"
"I loved this kids tape but these things concern me"
"Doesn't matter Toilet face won't know what to do with him"

And I get it. I'd love to be in the Bengals shoes. I would. But that's not the only way to win chips in this league. Given how we won ours you'd think this would have set in by now but it hasn't. So any attempt at giving it an honest go is attacked.

Do I feel great about our chances this year? Not really. I'll never feel as good as 2020 again. But about as good as the early Dungy years, where we went .500 over the first 3 seasons- what MJW was described as "the worst of all sins". And like Dungy I'd like to see this play out a lot more, especially given the defense that has been built here. We have great DBs at the top, 3 all-pro LBs, a star DT, and a couple of project first rounders due to break out.

But no, unless you're wasting 4 years on a Freeman/Winston rookie hero project, you better be tanking and demanding everyone's head.

We've literally gone back and forth 20 times and you still don't understand the argument you're arguing with.

In it's most basic form, here is my thought process. I can't speak for anyone but me, but here's mine. Are you ready?

1) The point of the exercise is to win Titles as soon as possible. Any other arguments about "goals" are meaningless to me unless there's a hell of case to be made achieving those goals means helping realize a Superbowl in the future. But honestly, I'm probably not buying. When people talk to me about "sustained competitiveness" or whatever I cringe. If you're not going to be etched in history, who cares? When's the last time anyone talked about some team that never won the big one but won 9-10 games every year and a few playoff games? Who. Cares? This is a zero sum game. The door prize for being good for a long time is making an NFL Network Top Ten about disappointing teams. You're going to tell me that's fundamentally more rewarding than winning 3 games? All that changes is you make a different NFL Network list.

If you want to look at football as a gosh darn fun thing to watch when it's a jolly good sunday of competitive play, etc, that's fine. But don't try to sell me on that. Raheem's team in 2011 won like 5 games. Schiano's team in 2012 won 7. I think the 2013 team won 4 or 5. When's the last time you talked about how much more successful the 2012 team was than the 2011 or 2013 teams? They're all forgotten and shitty. If you had a nice day at Ray Jay watching one of those teams play, great! I don't care!

With me so far?

2) There is no scenario where the 2023 Buccaneers contend for a title. If you believe otherwise, you are smoking meth. No perfect offseason, no perfect draft, no Baker Mayfield resurgence...it was never on the table. We weren't in the same galaxy as teams like the Niners or Eagles or Chiefs last year, with Tom Brady, and with a roster still talented enough to make a run. Miss me with the "Any Given Sunday" delusions. Any Given Sunday, yes. 21 Sundays, the last four against the best in the league? No.

3) See Point #1 - we cannot win a title this year, so the "Win A Title ASAP" goal becomes " Win A Title in the soonest possible future season." Which is another way of saying, THIS season should be devoted to maximizing our ability to do just that.

4) You can talk about nebulous terms like "momentum" if you wish. I believe in tangible resources.

5) As there is no competing for a title this year, the best use of this time (2023) is maximizing those resources for future seasons when competing for a title is feasible.

6) The resources in question -
a) Reps/Playing Time
b) Cap Space
c) Draft Capital

Each one can be maximized for when that window can be opened. Reps and Playing Time should go to younger, developing players who could play a role in that open window. This is why I wouldn't sign older free agents now, or mediocre players who will serve to take reps from players who might develop.

Cap space can be maximized by avoiding future cap commitments for players who will not be around for when that window opens, and avoiding dead cap hits. Also, structuring contracts in such a way to "front load" hits and open up future space.

Draft capital is self-explanatory, though it can also apply to avoiding the urge to address immediate needs on draft day.

7) If you have a front office and/or coaches who are under intense pressure to win right now, and who likely won't be the guys to shepherd in the next window, keeping them means you are now employing people who do not have these goals at the heart of their decisions. This is where I think we find ourselves right now, and it's why we paid a career mediocre like Baker Mayfield.

8) Additionally, the sooner you get in people who believe can be part of our long-term future, the sooner you can begin molding your roster around their vision.

When done correctly, you'll have a Front Office and Coaching staff thinking about Superbowls, not getting to 9-8 to keep their jobs.
You'll have draft capital to build around their vision with affordable rookie contracts.
You'll have the cap room to supplement those players with veterans who fill holes.
You'll have young holdovers from the previous regime who are contract values and who have gotten important developmental time already.

That's it.

It's not about tanking or trying to lose.
It's not about Caleb Williams and Rookie Saviors.
It's not about lightning in a bottle.

It's about having ALL the options possible available to you when people who share your vision want to build something.

I'll take that over any other approach, because every other approach involves things your franchise has no control over. If we could hire an Andy Reid and draft a Patrick Mahomes, I'd take that over meticulous construction. But that's not a plan.

[Doctor]

Except.... you're wrong. NFL life is short, 2-3 years usually. There isn't a HC or FO worth a damn who would throw away any season in the NFL. Period.

You ignore tangible sources.
The 2006 Giants were literally your 8-8, "stuck with that QB and HC who would never win", nightmare. They would open 2007 with the 0-2 kiss of death and were 2-9 over their last 11 as calls to fire Coughlin and dump Eli peaked.... before they would... without magic of savior... play better football and win a chip.

We've seen time and time again teams led by guys like Delhomme, Grossman, Eli, Kap, Foles, Jimmy, Ryan, Newton, etc etc, have ONE good run on a given season and make it to the promise land. Because chips aren't handed out in September and anything can break your way any given year.

You can try to reframe your bs as "being smart for the future" or whatever nonsense you want, but its cowardice. Plain and simple.

[Grahamburn]

So many words and so many absolutes all to describe EXACTLY what they’re already doing.

The only thing you can say right now that they haven’t done is fire Todd Bowles. But, what would the point of that be?! What exciting young coach did we have a shot at in THIS off-season would have wanted to come here? No cap. No QB.

ALL coaches and front offices are under intense pressure to win right now! All of them. There are no 3-year participation trophies. To say a coach and GM are trying to win like it’s some kind of indictment is so ludicrous I shouldn’t even acknowledge it. “Look at these idiots! They’re trying to win?! CLOWNS!” How dumb is that?

Of course they want to win. What you’re accusing them of that they actually aren’t doing is sacrificing the future. They’re filling out a roster.

They haven’t signed anyone outside of the organization to a long term deal. Nobody. The guys they’ve signed are middling free agents. Say what you want about Baker Mayfield, but he’s getting $4M guaranteed. That’s freaking kicker money. Seriously, that’s about what Justin Tucker makes.

And.. If Baker somehow turns his career around here Licht looks like a god damn genius. If not, and he’s set us up for this horrible shit show of a season you’re expecting then so what. We all expected it. It’s a one year deal and we have the assets you’re talking about going into next season. They’ll fire Bowles. And we’ll reset.

@MJW They’re doing what you seem to want them to do.

[Doctor]

What she wants is for them to cut everyone over 30, accelerate all their cap hits to this year, field a team of $100K starters, lose as many games as possible, get the first pick... excuse me... "better draft resources"... and then hand it all over to some hot shot 35 year old and be the Bengals.

That's what she wants.

[acmillis]

What she wants is for them to cut everyone over 30, accelerate all their cap hits to this year, field a team of $100K starters, lose as many games as possible, get the first pick... excuse me... "better draft resources"... and then hand it all over to some hot shot 35 year old and be the Bengals.

That's what she wants.

The Bengals lost the SB...so that's not what she wants....

[Doctor]

I'm sure she sees multiple rings in Burrows future.
He's one of the prophets.

[Grahamburn]

What she wants is for them to cut everyone over 30, accelerate all their cap hits to this year, field a team of $100K starters, lose as many games as possible, get the first pick... excuse me... "better draft resources"... and then hand it all over to some hot shot 35 year old and be the Bengals.

That's what she wants.

Then she needs to just say that dirty little “T” word …

[MJW]

Except.... you're wrong. NFL life is short, 2-3 years usually. There isn't a HC or FO worth a damn who would throw away any season in the NFL. Period.

You ignore tangible sources.
The 2006 Giants were literally your 8-8, "stuck with that QB and HC who would never win", nightmare. They would open 2007 with the 0-2 kiss of death and were 2-9 over their last 11 as calls to fire Coughlin and dump Eli peaked.... before they would... without magic of savior... play better football and win a chip.

We've seen time and time again teams led by guys like Delhomme, Grossman, Eli, Kap, Foles, Jimmy, Ryan, Newton, etc etc, have ONE good run on a given season and make it to the promise land. Because chips aren't handed out in September and anything can break your way any given year.

You can try to reframe your bs as "being smart for the future" or whatever nonsense you want, but its cowardice. Plain and simple.

1) Show me where I said I want to throw away a season. I wrote like 2000 words. Respond to ones I actually used.

2) Jesus Christ dude, and once a guy drafted 199th making the greatest ever to play the game. Does that make drafting the next Tom Brady in the 6th a plan? Does it mean that we should just hire a future Hall Of Fame Coach like Andy Reid and draft a future Hall of Fame quarterback in Mahomes, and call THAT a plan? Hey, we should just hire the next Bill Walsh and let him find the next Joe Montana? Why bother with approaching things methodically and logically when we can just do that?

3) I have no idea what your point about those quarterbacks is.

[MJW]

What she wants is for them to cut everyone over 30, accelerate all their cap hits to this year, field a team of $100K starters, lose as many games as possible, get the first pick... excuse me... "better draft resources"... and then hand it all over to some hot shot 35 year old and be the Bengals.

That's what she wants.

It's a shame you're either an idiot or playing an idiot, because there aren't many people to talk to here at the moment. I took the time to explain what I want to do. If you're either too lazy to read it, too stupid to understand it, or too arrogant to ask about it, I'm done wasting my time treating you like a serious person. I set up the argument. If you can't engage it - if you can't do better than straw men and putting words in my mouth - you're not worth any more keystrokes.

When you want to have an actual discussion, I'll be around.

[Doctor]

You want to throw this season away.

You can say it with as many words as you want, but at the end of the day that's what it is is it not?

[Grahamburn]

You want to throw this season away.

You can say it with as many words as you want, but at the end of the day that's what it is is it not?

I think she wants us, and “them,” to I guess just admit it’s a throw away season? It probably is. I’m just choosing to see some positives.

As far as what they’re doing in terms of building the 2023 roster they aren’t sacrificing the future to win THIS year. But, they are going to try to win as many games as they can. What’s so wrong with that?

If you want them to tank just say so. I don’t think that strategy builds winning culture and I won’t advocate for it. Especially in April.

If they’re 2-14 going into the last game of the year and can get the #1 overall with an L? Sure, then don’t Lovie it up.

[MJW]

As far as what they’re doing in terms of building the 2023 roster they aren’t sacrificing the future to win THIS year. But, they are going to try to win as many games as they can. What’s so wrong with that?

If you want them to tank just say so. I don’t think that strategy builds winning culture and I won’t advocate for it. Especially in April.

Please show me where I said they shouldn't be trying to win this year.

Please show me where I even implied I want them to tank.

It's like saying, "I'm going to have cheap ramen today so I can afford prime rib tomorrow" and you saying, "Oh, so you want to have the nastiest possible lunch today? You don't care about having a good lunch?"

Or saying, "You're investing your money? You must really hate having money right now!"

It's honestly not complicated and I'm beginning to feel like I'm teaching remedial finance at an inner city middle school.

[MJW]

And I'm going to say this - we've done a fairly good job of this this offseason, but we also didn't have much of a choice. I haven't dug deep into how all the restructures were handled though. I hate void years and I really would have liked to have made more an effort to get off that treadmill. Of course, some were inevitable after keeping the window open last year, only for Toilet Bowles to slam it on our heads (and keep his job basically because BA likes him.)

I am 100% certain keeping Bowles is the waste of a season, and I'm very dubious Licht will still be around when the next window opens (quick, name all the GMs who worked with 5 coaches) but it is what it is. I think the Mayfield signing is a joke, though, and (get ready trolls) a misallocation of both money and snaps.

How we approach this draft will say a lot as well. Will we be drafting the Luke Goedekes, who only get picked because they upgrade the roster on paper for September, or will we actually just look at talent? We'll find out. If Licht has his third mediocre draft in a row, it'll be even tougher to see him overseeing the next era.

[njdungeoneer]

MJW has a very good point at the beginning of the post. she says that the Bucs offseason this year has gone about as good as it could despite the circumstances.

I am of the camp that believes TB is a superior DCoord, but is a substandard HC. He just doesn't have the magic sauce to motivate a team to superior performance. He can do that with a DFence.

I am more optimistic about the Bucs chances this year than MJW, but I think that we will still be a middling team, which can lead to less than ideal draft potitioning. That will make it more difficult to achieve success in later years.
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But, JL is a better drafter than most GM's in the league and does a nice job setting himself prior to the draft to give him the most flexibility possible.

All of that doesn't mean that the Bucs will absolutely suck this year, or set themselves up for draft success in the future.

there is a middle ground, and that is where the Bucs are set up for in the next few years. but please trade DW

[mdb1958]

Wasnt DW pressing WR's off the line initially many times last year? I think that is Bowles doing knowing we were not able to disrupt the offensive play quick enough. Bowles was having DW trying to buy us time and limit the damage.

Anybody that looks at the sims I do will see future direction that I think is needed. I think we need to lock in fresh new 4 year contracts that play out really well.