Opening W/L odds has Buccaneers as bottom 4 team next season

[Buc2]

Yea purposely taking delay of game penalties in the red zone because you feel your kicker is better from longer distances is "winning culture"...

It actually is, but it seems the conversation has moved on.

[Grahamburn]

It actually is, but it seems the conversation has moved on.

What a weird situation to remember and point out as an indicator of negative culture.

[Bootz]

What a weird situation to remember and point out as an indicator of negative culture.

It's remembered because it led to a missed FG and a lossed game. Goes back to the point about losing being so common and comfortable for this fanbase, they'll gloss over losses like it's a Tuesday afternoon.

[Grahamburn]

What a weird situation to remember and point out as an indicator of negative culture.

It's remembered because it led to a missed FG and a lossed game. Goes back to the point about losing being so common and comfortable for this fanbase, they'll gloss over losses like it's a Tuesday afternoon.

I remember it. I don't think it fits the context though.

[Bootz]

It's remembered because it led to a missed FG and a lossed game. Goes back to the point about losing being so common and comfortable for this fanbase, they'll gloss over losses like it's a Tuesday afternoon.

I remember it. I don't think it fits the context though.

You really mean it doesn't fit your narrative.

[MJW]

The greatest indicator of success in the NFL is the caliber of QB and the caliber of Head Coach. There's more to it than that, of course. But if you had three seconds to give someone a cheat code to winning, there it is.

Neither our HC nor our QB are in the top 25 in the league at their respective jobs. Our HC might not be in the top 30.

[Doctor]

How can you possibly know that? Can you tell us if the Panthers fit that? The Colts?

The Browns or Steelers or Fins or 9ers or Cowboys?

[Grahamburn]

How can you possibly know that? Can you tell us if the Panthers fit that? The Colts?

The Browns or Steelers or Fins or 9ers or Cowboys?

I’m sure Jalen Hurts and Nick Sirianni made the list after we curb stomped them in the 2021 playoffs.

[Grahamburn]

Luckily for the Eagles they didn’t subscribe to the “if you get blown out in the playoffs you shouldn’t try to compete next season” strategy.

[Doctor]

Watch them draft a RB in the top 10 next. The zealots will go mad.

[Miller4Prez64]

Luckily for the Eagles they didn’t subscribe to the “if you get blown out in the playoffs you shouldn’t try to compete next season” strategy.

They didn’t have to replace the greatest QB of all time with a draft bust and eat a ton of dead cap money. Infact, they had the cap space and draft picks to get things done and load up their roster. Which is why some of us were interested in a soft rebuild, making sure we can be the team in position to agressively upgrade our roster sooner rather than later. Also, that doesn’t mean gutting the roster entirely. But I believe a few tough moves should have been made that weren’t personally.


It will be a very interesting season regardless and I’m interested in seeing how it plays out.

[Grahamburn]

Luckily for the Eagles they didn’t subscribe to the “if you get blown out in the playoffs you shouldn’t try to compete next season” strategy.

They didn’t have to replace the greatest QB of all time with a draft bust and eat a ton of dead cap money. Infact, they had the cap space and draft picks to get things done and load up their roster. Which is why some of us were interested in a soft rebuild, making sure we can be the team in position to agressively upgrade our roster sooner rather than later. Also, that doesn’t mean gutting the roster entirely. But I believe a few tough moves should have been made that weren’t personally.

It will be a very interesting season regardless and I’m interested in seeing how it plays out.

What tough moves did they not make?

[Doctor]

Tanking for Caleb.

[Grahamburn]

Tanking for Caleb.

Right. Basically trade anyone who may not be there in 3 years? Real life doesn’t work that way. Because then every player you DO hope is here in three years starts demanding trades. These guys don’t lay it on the line to tank games.

[Miller4Prez64]

They didn’t have to replace the greatest QB of all time with a draft bust and eat a ton of dead cap money. Infact, they had the cap space and draft picks to get things done and load up their roster. Which is why some of us were interested in a soft rebuild, making sure we can be the team in position to agressively upgrade our roster sooner rather than later. Also, that doesn’t mean gutting the roster entirely. But I believe a few tough moves should have been made that weren’t personally.

It will be a very interesting season regardless and I’m interested in seeing how it plays out.

What tough moves did they not make?

I would have traded Devin White as a start. Inconsistent young player who is going to ask for a big payday next summer. Get the extra picks in return and keep a big extension off your books for someone that’s good but not great. I would listen to any offers for players that wouldn’t kill us with dead cap hits. Offers need to be good enough, but I would prioritize picks and cap space for now. Keep some veterans to mix with new youth, set yourself up to not be tied down to restructuring for cap space every year. Don’t pull a 2009 and gut the roster and let 7th round draft picks start all over the roster, but I have concerns about how we plan on contending for another Super Bowl while constantly having to restructure our contracts to get under the books just to keep players from leaving, let alone look for agressive upgrades on the FA/trade market that can get us over the top.

[mdb1958]

Miller you are vague with extra picks, explain what the haul is.

[MJW]

What tough moves did they not make?

I would have traded Devin White as a start. Inconsistent young player who is going to ask for a big payday next summer. Get the extra picks in return and keep a big extension off your books for someone that’s good but not great. I would listen to any offers for players that wouldn’t kill us with dead cap hits. Offers need to be good enough, but I would prioritize picks and cap space for now. Keep some veterans to mix with new youth, set yourself up to not be tied down to restructuring for cap space every year. Don’t pull a 2009 and gut the roster and let 7th round draft picks start all over the roster, but I have concerns about how we plan on contending for another Super Bowl while constantly having to restructure our contracts to get under the books just to keep players from leaving, let alone look for agressive upgrades on the FA/trade market that can get us over the top.

I'm old enough to remember when not having any dead junk on the books from previous seasons was a HUGE part of the 2020-2021 success, and Licht got (and deserved) a ton of credit for doing things that way.

Now we're going to play kick the cap can again, and again, and again, because Licht and Co. know that biting the bullet will hasten their firings.

And yes, we 1000% should have traded Devin White. He's not that guy, but there are still undoubtedly teams that would have ponied up picks like he was.

So it goes.

[Miller4Prez64]

I would have traded Devin White as a start. Inconsistent young player who is going to ask for a big payday next summer. Get the extra picks in return and keep a big extension off your books for someone that’s good but not great. I would listen to any offers for players that wouldn’t kill us with dead cap hits. Offers need to be good enough, but I would prioritize picks and cap space for now. Keep some veterans to mix with new youth, set yourself up to not be tied down to restructuring for cap space every year. Don’t pull a 2009 and gut the roster and let 7th round draft picks start all over the roster, but I have concerns about how we plan on contending for another Super Bowl while constantly having to restructure our contracts to get under the books just to keep players from leaving, let alone look for agressive upgrades on the FA/trade market that can get us over the top.

I'm old enough to remember when not having any dead junk on the books from previous seasons was a HUGE part of the 2020-2021 success, and Licht got (and deserved) a ton of credit for doing things that way.

Now we're going to play kick the cap can again, and again, and again, because Licht and Co. know that biting the bullet will hasten their firings.

And yes, we 1000% should have traded Devin White. He's not that guy, but there are still undoubtedly teams that would have ponied up picks like he was.

So it goes.

It comes down to what players you want to prioritize keeping. In a perfect world we can keep Devin White, Antoine Winfield Jr, Jamel Dean and Tristan Wirfs. But doing so means limited funding for other positions. That’s why I would have traded White and just let someone else pay Dean and take the compensation pick in 2024. Then focus on getting deals for AWJ and Wirfs. Easier on the cap and you also have some extra draft picks to add younger and cheaper players while you figure out how to shape the roster around the players you have. Life in the NFL is a lot of tough decisions, can’t keep everyone.

[mdb1958]

You are ignoring me but I will continue - maybe we could not get what we wanted for White.

[Miller4Prez64]

You are ignoring me but I will continue - maybe we could not get what we wanted for White.

Maybe? If that’s the case then let him walk in FA and take the comp pick. I think it’s more likely that Licht tries push salary around and give him a big extension and I don’t think that’s the right decision to make even though I do actually like Devin and his attitude. He’s just too inconsistent to get paid like a top defender IMO.

[mdb1958]

You are ignoring me but I will continue - maybe we could not get what we wanted for White.

Maybe? If that’s the case then let him walk in FA and take the comp pick. I think it’s more likely that Licht tries push salary around and give him a big extension and I don’t think that’s the right decision to make even though I do actually like Devin and his attitude. He’s just too inconsistent to get paid like a top defender IMO.

For a guy that likes horses he should know he needs to ride a bigger horse. The video of him riding a horse looked crazy.

[Grahamburn]

What tough moves did they not make?

I would have traded Devin White as a start. Inconsistent young player who is going to ask for a big payday next summer. Get the extra picks in return and keep a big extension off your books for someone that’s good but not great. I would listen to any offers for players that wouldn’t kill us with dead cap hits. Offers need to be good enough, but I would prioritize picks and cap space for now. Keep some veterans to mix with new youth, set yourself up to not be tied down to restructuring for cap space every year. Don’t pull a 2009 and gut the roster and let 7th round draft picks start all over the roster, but I have concerns about how we plan on contending for another Super Bowl while constantly having to restructure our contracts to get under the books just to keep players from leaving, let alone look for agressive upgrades on the FA/trade market that can get us over the top.

I imagine White is much more appreciated at OBP than he is here. Moves like that one would have definitely signified the end of an era and this regime. Bowles/Licht would never trade him. Especially for what likely amounts to a mid-round pick. If they somehow buy themselves another year I hope he’s tagged at most.

Once you trade White you start over. You don’t re-sign LVD or Dean. No need to bring Baker in.

[MJW]

I would have traded Devin White as a start. Inconsistent young player who is going to ask for a big payday next summer. Get the extra picks in return and keep a big extension off your books for someone that’s good but not great. I would listen to any offers for players that wouldn’t kill us with dead cap hits. Offers need to be good enough, but I would prioritize picks and cap space for now. Keep some veterans to mix with new youth, set yourself up to not be tied down to restructuring for cap space every year. Don’t pull a 2009 and gut the roster and let 7th round draft picks start all over the roster, but I have concerns about how we plan on contending for another Super Bowl while constantly having to restructure our contracts to get under the books just to keep players from leaving, let alone look for agressive upgrades on the FA/trade market that can get us over the top.

I imagine White is much more appreciated at OBP than he is here. Moves like that one would have definitely signified the end of an era and this regime. Bowles/Licht would never trade him. Especially for what likely amounts to a mid-round pick. If they somehow buy themselves another year I hope he’s tagged at most.

Once you trade White you start over. You don’t re-sign LVD or Dean. No need to bring Baker in.

Pretty great argument for firing all these people, honestly. Notice how none of that is fueled by what's best for the Bucs going forward?

[Grahamburn]

All these people also just brought us a Championship 3 years ago.

I realize Bowles’ head coaching record isn’t great and his first year here had some head scratching moments. I do like that several of these players the last couple years have decided to sign extensions here knowing he’s the HC. That says something to me.

And I think we can agree that the offense held this team back in 2022. An offense that lost Marpet, Gronk, Jensen, and AB if you want to count him. As well as a seemingly not fully committed Tom Brady. That’s a lot to overcome.

So, I’m giving them a shot.

I also don’t think it was a great year to try to bring in a new head coach. Limited assets. Up against the cap. Dead money galore. That isn’t the situation to start a new regime.

If we’re going to be bad let Bowles and Licht take it on the chin.

[Doctor]

I hate to do it to him but White is actually the perfect candidate to hit with a couple of non-exclusive tags.

[Bootz]

I hate to do it to him but White is actually the perfect candidate to hit with a couple of non-exclusive tags.

Yea makes perfect sense to hit him with several $21mil+ franchise tags....

[Grahamburn]

I hate to do it to him but White is actually the perfect candidate to hit with a couple of non-exclusive tags.

If they manage to keep their jobs after this season he’ll be extended or certainly tagged.

[MJW]

All these people also just brought us a Championship 3 years ago.

I realize Bowles’ head coaching record isn’t great and his first year here had some head scratching moments. I do like that several of these players the last couple years have decided to sign extensions here knowing he’s the HC. That says something to me.

And I think we can agree that the offense held this team back in 2022. An offense that lost Marpet, Gronk, Jensen, and AB if you want to count him. As well as a seemingly not fully committed Tom Brady. That’s a lot to overcome.

So, I’m giving them a shot.

I also don’t think it was a great year to try to bring in a new head coach. Limited assets. Up against the cap. Dead money galore. That isn’t the situation to start a new regime.

If we’re going to be bad let Bowles and Licht take it on the chin.

Bowles was handed one of the greatest new coach situations in modern NFL history and proceeded to go sub .500 in one of the worst divisions in recent memory, barely outdueling PJ Walker and an interim coach to triumphantly get to 8-9 with Tom Brady.

This is after being a gigantic failure in four years with the Jets.

But sure, it was someone else's fault. Year Six, with his FIFTH offensive coordinator (because all of them were the problem too!), I'm sure he'll get it right.

Give me a break. He has his job because he's Bruce Arians's golfing buddy.

[MJW]

As for Licht, I understand the arguments for keeping him. I'm not going to die on that hill - yet.

But Toilet Bowles? What evidence has anyone seen in five years as an NFL head coach that he's a good one?

[Grahamburn]

I’m not going to defend Bowles.

[Bootz]

The Bucs FO should defense listen to this board.

[Doctor]

As for Licht, I understand the arguments for keeping him. I'm not going to die on that hill - yet.

But Toilet Bowles? What evidence has anyone seen in five years as an NFL head coach that he's a good one?

EXACTLY!

Signed,
Coaches at their five-year mark:

Don Shula - 31-33-2
Chuck Noll - 21-43-1
Bill Walsh - 27-37
Marv Levy - 31-42
Bill Belichick - 41-55
Tom Landry - 24-38-4

[Snake]

Ages at 5 year mark of being a HC:

Shula - 37
Noll - 41
Walsh - 46
Levy - 36, if you include HS/NCAA HC. 38, if you include college and no HS. 52, if you include CFL+NFL, but no HS/NCAA.
Belichick - 43
Landry - 41

Toilet = 59

[Cheb]

As for Licht, I understand the arguments for keeping him. I'm not going to die on that hill - yet.

But Toilet Bowles? What evidence has anyone seen in five years as an NFL head coach that he's a good one?

It's not easy to argue for keeping Bowles, but for the sake of discussion let's make it.

Firstly, I would argue that Todd Bowles is debatably a top-ten defensive mind in the NFL, and retaining a coach of that caliber is the move of a smart organization.

Second and more importantly, I would argue that last year Todd Bowles wasn't the sole head coach on this team -- he was co-managing the Buccaneers with Byron Leftwich, with a very strict division of labor and responsibilities. Leftwich would be a lead weight around the neck of even the best head coaches in the league, and his stubbornness in scheme, inability to create a running game, and inflexibility in playcalling directly torpedoed Brady's final season. One also wonders how much Bruce Arians is putting his thumb on the scales for the balance of power at One Buc, but any supposition on that topic is just idle and ultimately unprovable banter.

Thirdly, the mismatch last year between the offensive scheme and defensive philosophy was the antithesis of complimentary football. The offense could not maintain time of possession or dictate the flow of the game in any way, it could not build a lead nor maintain one. As a defensive coordinator, when your offense cannot do any of those things, your main job is damage control. Playcalling tilts towards being less aggressive because your two options are either die slowly or die fast, and 9 outta 10 coaches will pick the former.

Fourthly, you have to give a guy some time to build the team in his image. The first year of any NFL head coach's tenure, he's coaching the last guys' team. The second year, it's starting to look more like the squad he wants in his head. By the third year, he should have accountability for the team that he's built. Unless the team stops playing for their head coach, I think that you need to give that coach time to do his thing. The team is still fighting for Bowles, and I would give him the courtesy of more time to build up the squad in his image.

Fifthly, the Buccaneers have the most dead cap in the NFL right now, which absolutely is hamstringing Bowles' ability to field a team. Such is the price of pushing for Superbowls in the Brady window, but I will not punish Bowles because he has to pay that bill now. Indeed, looking at the numbers is crazy. The Buccaneers spend more money in dead cap than we do on the entire offense right now. Looked at another way, the Cleveland Browns spend nearly as much money paying just their offense as the Bucs spend on their entire team. Letting Bowles spend real money to bring in guys that compliment his squad is only fair, imo.

Does Todd Bowles have his problems, for sure. Do I wish he would show at least a modicum of interest and responsibility for the offensive side of the ball, also yes. But I wouldn't fire him just yet. Were it up to me, I would give him this season and the next as well, when the cap is reset and we can compete at a top level without the hamstringing of past pursuits of Superbowl glory.

We don't like to use the word rebuild around here, but we are rebuilding right now. Let the man rebuild.

[Doctor]

Ages at 5 year mark of being a HC:

Shula - 37
Noll - 41
Walsh - 46
Levy - 36, if you include HS/NCAA HC. 38, if you include college and no HS. 52, if you include CFL+NFL, but no HS/NCAA.
Belichick - 43
Landry - 41

Toilet = 59

Given we just won a chip with a 68 year old HC, you'd think you'd have more sense than to make a lame appeal to agism... and yet....