Opening W/L odds has Buccaneers as bottom 4 team next season

[Doctor]

The "every QB is a step back from the GOAT so we're of course going to be worse than 8-9" is a stupid argument. So unless we can get a QB better than the goat we're doomed to never win again.

[MJW]

The "every QB is a step back from the GOAT so we're of course going to be worse than 8-9" is a stupid argument. So unless we can get a QB better than the goat we're doomed to never win again.

I agree. If only anyone had made the argument you're making.

We didn't go from Tom Brady to another great, or even good, quarterback.

We went from Tom Brady to a guy who's been dumped by 3 different franchises in about a year.

Me pointing out that going from Tom Brady to THAT guy will represent a downgrade is the argument you need to address. But you can't.

[MJW]

There's absolutely no way that any intelligent Bucs fan would look at this roster, these quarterbacks, and this coach and be claiming we're going to be any good if it was any other team. No chance.

Be optimistic because it's more fun to be optimistic. I envy you. I am not capable of this.

Just stop acting like there's any way you WOULDN'T be optimistic. It's a choice, not the result of sober analysis. This is a 3-5 win team.

What is "good?" Super Bowl contender? No. Probably not unless there's some version of Baker Mayfield we've never seen before. Competitive every week and possibly push for a playoff spot? Sure, if a few things go their way.

Is that your idea of a goal? Do you consider last season a success? Derping into the playoffs and getting embarrassed in front of America?

I don't give a shit about going .500-ish and getting ramrodded in a wildcard game. I want to win Lombardis.

Now, keeping in mind that there's NOTHING we could have done to win a Lombardi this season, I'd rather be building for a future season where we CAN compete for one instead of trying to win 8 games and hoping our division is terrible enough for us to special olympics our way into a wildcard blowout again. But that's me. I know some folks are so pure of heart they gosh darn want to see good football games on Sundays. That's fine. That ain't me.

[Obsolete]

The "every QB is a step back from the GOAT so we're of course going to be worse than 8-9" is a stupid argument. So unless we can get a QB better than the goat we're doomed to never win again.

I agree. If only anyone had made the argument you're making.

We didn't go from Tom Brady to another great, or even good, quarterback.

We went from Tom Brady to a guy who's been dumped by 3 different franchises in about a year.

Me pointing out that going from Tom Brady to THAT guy will represent a downgrade is the argument you need to address. But you can't.

You could make the argument that the reason they picked up Baker is to tank. They have spent little money on bringing him in, they have no future money tied up in him, they haven't attempted to make any trades, other than getting ride of Shaq Mason(who is a decent player).

They've managed to keep our young good players, while letting the borderline players go. They know this isnt a winning season, they cant come out and say it because they still need fans in the stands.

The only thing i wish theyve done different is get rid of Bowles. But they didnt and here we are. At least they have the right coach to nosedive this shit straight to the bottom of the sea.

[Miller4Prez64]

What improvements have the Bucs made so far this off season? Because the Bucs had their backs against the salary cap wall, they were unable to make offers to Free Agent offensive tackles. Will the young offensive linemen make drastic steps forward? I hope so, otherwise this team is doomed.

It seems the hope for improvement rides solely on offensive coaching changes. We certainly didn’t add any talent on the offensive side of the ball and while we kept some key players on defense, we lost plenty of depth on defense too.

[MJW]

I agree. If only anyone had made the argument you're making.

We didn't go from Tom Brady to another great, or even good, quarterback.

We went from Tom Brady to a guy who's been dumped by 3 different franchises in about a year.

Me pointing out that going from Tom Brady to THAT guy will represent a downgrade is the argument you need to address. But you can't.

You could make the argument that the reason they picked up Baker is to tank. They have spent little money on bringing him in, they have no future money tied up in him, they haven't attempted to make any trades, other than getting ride of Shaq Mason(who is a decent player).

They've managed to keep our young good players, while letting the borderline players go. They know this isnt a winning season, they cant come out and say it because they still need fans in the stands.

The only thing i wish theyve done different is get rid of Bowles. But they didnt and here we are. At least they have the right coach to nosedive this shit straight to the bottom of the sea.

Most of the optimism boils down to the hope that Dave Canales is the next Bill Walsh.

Even if he turns out to be a great OC, this is not a particularly talented offense anymore. Mayfield is a guy. White has potential, but he was also fairly unspectacular as a rookie. He certainly shouldn't be mentioned with the elite backs in the game (and there's nothing behind him.) Evans had a frustrating season despite the good final numbers. Godwin is still Godwin, if he can stay healthy, but Gage showed almost nothing last year and there's absolutely nothing behind those three. Our starting TE was a 4th rounder last year who was frankly a liability. Wirfs is a stud. And we're looking at an aging, banged up Jensen as our 2nd best linemen, with god knows who at LT and both guard spots.

An honest look at this offensive group yields a bad offensive backfield on the whole, a top-heavy receiver room, nobody proven at TE, and a line that's going to be 60% rookies and/or random guys. Also, no depth anywhere.

While we were all rightly giving shit to Leftwich, the offensive talent came way back down to earth.

[Doctor]

Who the hell is assuming the QB in April?

Signed,
Matt Flynn
Joe Flacco
Trey Lance

[MJW]

Who the hell is assuming the QB in April?

Signed,
Matt Flynn
Joe Flacco
Trey Lance

?

[Grahamburn]

What is "good?" Super Bowl contender? No. Probably not unless there's some version of Baker Mayfield we've never seen before. Competitive every week and possibly push for a playoff spot? Sure, if a few things go their way.

Is that your idea of a goal? Do you consider last season a success? Derping into the playoffs and getting embarrassed in front of America?

I don't give a shit about going .500-ish and getting ramrodded in a wildcard game. I want to win Lombardis.

Now, keeping in mind that there's NOTHING we could have done to win a Lombardi this season, I'd rather be building for a future season where we CAN compete for one instead of trying to win 8 games and hoping our division is terrible enough for us to special olympics our way into a wildcard blowout again. But that's me. I know some folks are so pure of heart they gosh darn want to see good football games on Sundays. That's fine. That ain't me.

With this roster and cap situation, yes. I think making the playoffs is my idea of a great goal. Last year? No. That was a disappointment.

What’s your idea of a goal?! Get “ramrodded” in every regular season game?

I’m glad you’re not running the team because every one of our young players that would actually be here for the future you so desire would be sitting on their couches with trade requests on Jason Licht’s desk.

What are they doing that’s sacrificing anything for the future of the franchise? What would you have done differently in THIS offseason?

[Naismith]

Unfortunately, I don't think the Bucs have done enough to be a bottom four team.

[BuccaNOLEer]

I agree. If only anyone had made the argument you're making.

We didn't go from Tom Brady to another great, or even good, quarterback.

We went from Tom Brady to a guy who's been dumped by 3 different franchises in about a year.

Me pointing out that going from Tom Brady to THAT guy will represent a downgrade is the argument you need to address. But you can't.

You could make the argument that the reason they picked up Baker is to tank. They have spent little money on bringing him in, they have no future money tied up in him, they haven't attempted to make any trades, other than getting ride of Shaq Mason(who is a decent player).

They've managed to keep our young good players, while letting the borderline players go. They know this isnt a winning season, they cant come out and say it because they still need fans in the stands.

The only thing i wish theyve done different is get rid of Bowles. But they didnt and here we are. At least they have the right coach to nosedive this shit straight to the bottom of the sea.

If they were really looking to tank, they wouldn't have brought in Baker. They would've rolled with Trask and a cheap vet (Jacoby Brissett or Teddy Bridgewater). They think they can have a good showing if Baker can recapture some of his magic from 2020. Keep in mind that Licht's most recent draft decisions have turned out to be really bad. The past two draft classes have contributed virtually nothing aside from the punter. As a result, management may be looking to give him his walking papers and if that's the case, he's not going to be thinking long term.

[Naismith]

They would've rolled with Trask and a cheap vet (Jacoby Brissett or Teddy Bridgewater).

I don't think they are trying to tank, but this is exactly what they are doing.

[Grahamburn]

Baker is literally the very definition of a “cheap vet.” He basically signed for middling backup money.

[Grahamburn]

You could make the argument that the reason they picked up Baker is to tank. They have spent little money on bringing him in, they have no future money tied up in him, they haven't attempted to make any trades, other than getting ride of Shaq Mason(who is a decent player).

They've managed to keep our young good players, while letting the borderline players go. They know this isnt a winning season, they cant come out and say it because they still need fans in the stands.

The only thing i wish theyve done different is get rid of Bowles. But they didnt and here we are. At least they have the right coach to nosedive this shit straight to the bottom of the sea.

If they were really looking to tank, they wouldn't have brought in Baker. They would've rolled with Trask and a cheap vet (Jacoby Brissett or Teddy Bridgewater). They think they can have a good showing if Baker can recapture some of his magic from 2020. Keep in mind that Licht's most recent draft decisions have turned out to be really bad. The past two draft classes have contributed virtually nothing aside from the punter. As a result, management may be looking to give him his walking papers and if that's the case, he's not going to be thinking long term.

We’re firing the GM after three straight playoff appearances and a Super Bowl win? Man, this fan base.

[Doctor]

Some people have serious PTSD from sucking and haven't been able to move on

[MJW]

Some people have serious PTSD from sucking and haven't been able to move on

Some people are so afraid to suck again that they pretend there's a difference between winning 7 games and winning 4,

[Grahamburn]

Some people have serious PTSD from sucking and haven't been able to move on

Some people are so afraid to suck again that they pretend there's a difference between winning 7 games and winning 4,

Some people choose to be optimistic. Others, pessimistic. I don't think any of us are delusional about the situation here, but I do prefer there be a level of compete involved no matter the situation.

The Lions went 9-8 last year. Missed the playoffs again. Ask their fans if there's a difference between winning 9 and still missing the playoffs or winning 3 like they did in 2021. Ask which one they'd choose.

You don't think they'd trade ALL the top 5 picks they've had in the last 20 years to compete like they did in 2022 more often? They would.

[Doctor]

You know for someone who keeps insisting there's no difference between 7 and 4 wins they sure have a very angry preference.

[Snake]

The difference is, most of us on this message board have been fortunate enough to see two Super Bowl wins. One of which was driven by a top-five defense of all time. The other was driven by a great defense, and the best quarterback of all time.

Fake competing is something I don’t think a lot of us are interested in. We’re comfortable being bad because we’ve been bad so long. Either a great contending team, or trash. And I honestly prefer it that way. Compared to fake competing.

I’m sure lions fans are desperate for a 9-8 season because theyve never tasted real victory.

[Doctor]

Curious, have the Steelers been fake-competing this whole time?
Vikings? Ravens? Packers?

[Snake]

Curious, have the Steelers been fake-competing this whole time?
Vikings? Ravens? Packers?

You’re never fake competing if you have a Hall of Fame quarterback.

And yes, the Steelers are fake competing. Mike Tomlin figures out a way to never have a losing record. But we all know they’ve had no shot at the Super Bowl for years.

[Grahamburn]

The difference is, most of us on this message board have been fortunate enough to see two Super Bowl wins. One of which was driven by a top-five defense of all time. The other was driven by a great defense, and the best quarterback of all time.

Fake competing is something I don’t think a lot of us are interested in. We’re comfortable being bad because we’ve been bad so long. Either a great contending team, or trash. And I honestly prefer it that way. Compared to fake competing.

I’m sure lions fans are desperate for a 9-8 season because theyve never tasted real victory.

Fair enough. You know what both of those teams had though? Culture. Winners. Proven winners. Leaders. The 2002 team won a whole lot of games in the years prior to that magical season. They didn't tank for early picks. They grinded it out until it was their time.

The 2020 team had the coaching staff and roster pieces in place and then they added Tom Brady. You think Tom Brady would have gone to a team that perennially mailed it in to pick in the top 5? You don't build a winning culture that way.

I don't think your examples support your argument.

[Snake]

There wasn’t a winning culture in TB until Tom Brady showed up. And you’re going to see how important winning culture is when the best player on the team leaves. This team is expected to be one of the four worst teams in NFL. Where did the winning culture go overnight? It was never actually here. We just had the best players.

Brady took a job in Tampa because it was one of 2 to 3 offers he received and they had the most talented team. And that was only after the Raiders pulled out. Which was confirmed by Gronkowski. They were heading to the fucking raiders. The Raiders were 17-31 in the previous three seasons. Was he going there for the winning culture?

[Grahamburn]

There wasn’t a winning culture in TB until Tom Brady showed up. And you’re going to see how important winning culture is when the best player on the team leaves. This team is expected to be one of the four worst teams in NFL. Where did the winning culture go overnight? It was never actually here. We just had the best players.

Brady took a job in Tampa because it was one of 2 to 3 offers he received and they had the most talented team. And that was only after the Raiders pulled out. Which was confirmed by Gronkowski. They were heading to the fucking raiders. The Raiders were 17-31 in the previous three seasons. Was he going there for the winning culture?

I think Arians brought culture with him and the players knew they could win if the QB didn't turn it over 30+ times.

[Bootz]

Yea purposely taking delay of game penalties in the red zone because you feel your kicker is better from longer distances is "winning culture"...

[Doctor]

There wasn’t a winning culture in TB until Tom Brady showed up. And you’re going to see how important winning culture is when the best player on the team leaves. This team is expected to be one of the four worst teams in NFL. Where did the winning culture go overnight? It was never actually here. We just had the best players.

Brady took a job in Tampa because it was one of 2 to 3 offers he received and they had the most talented team. And that was only after the Raiders pulled out. Which was confirmed by Gronkowski. They were heading to the fucking raiders. The Raiders were 17-31 in the previous three seasons. Was he going there for the winning culture?

I think Arians brought culture with him and the players knew they could win if the QB didn't turn it over 30+ times.

Exactly. It's not uncommon for a team to be primed and just missing a piece to break through.

We often tend to give the last kid on the bus (or play of the game) too much weight for the final product. Sometimes it's a WR like TO for the Eagles, sometimes it's the QB. Imagine giving Carson Palmers, Stafford, Goff, and soon to be Rodgers all the "winning culture" credit as if the rest of the team isn't doing stuff.

[MJW]

Some people are so afraid to suck again that they pretend there's a difference between winning 7 games and winning 4,

Some people choose to be optimistic. Others, pessimistic. I don't think any of us are delusional about the situation here, but I do prefer there be a level of compete involved no matter the situation.

The Lions went 9-8 last year. Missed the playoffs again. Ask their fans if there's a difference between winning 9 and still missing the playoffs or winning 3 like they did in 2021. Ask which one they'd choose.

You don't think they'd trade ALL the top 5 picks they've had in the last 20 years to compete like they did in 2022 more often? They would.

This isn't a Lions situation. They were a young team with a coach building something for the first time in decades.

There are absolutely situations where there's a difference between being terrible and showing growth.

This isn't that and we both know it. This team isn't building towards anything at the moment. The 2023 season is devoted to saving a terrible head coach's job, not setting up a triumphant return to competitiveness.

[Doctor]

Says you.

9 SB rings in the FO disagree with you.

Who should I side with?

[MJW]

I think Arians brought culture with him and the players knew they could win if the QB didn't turn it over 30+ times.

Exactly. It's not uncommon for a team to be primed and just missing a piece to break through.

We often tend to give the last kid on the bus (or play of the game) too much weight for the final product. Sometimes it's a WR like TO for the Eagles, sometimes it's the QB. Imagine giving Carson Palmers, Stafford, Goff, and soon to be Rodgers all the "winning culture" credit as if the rest of the team isn't doing stuff.

Are you arguing that we looked "primed" to you last year? That the team was buying what Bowles was selling? That a winning attitude was permeating the building? That the young players were shaping up?

We had the greatest culture building quarterback in the history of football in the building and we went sub .500 in a horrible division. We almost lost said division to a team with an XFL quarterback and an interim coach. Then we embarrassed ourselves at home in the playoffs.

I'm getting exhausted with the, "Some situations be like this, so maybe our situation be like this!" specious reasoning. It's like y'all have never been shitty before.

Todd Bowles is a terrible coach.
Baker Mayfield is not going to get it in his sixth year in the league, and even if he did, he still wouldn't be great.
There is zero depth on any unit of this team, and there will be multiple starters on both sides of the ball who shouldn't be.

This is a shitty team about to embark on a lost season before a massive rebuild.

[Doctor]

Good gooooood, let it flow through you...

[Grahamburn]

I personally think Brady checked out last year and the rest of the team followed right along with him.

[MJW]

Says you.

9 SB rings in the FO disagree with you.

Who should I side with?

The "Appeal To Authority" Fallacy? That's your trump card?

And to answer your question, you should side with the eyes that watched Todd Bowles coach this team last year. Or Baker Mayfield over the last five. Then you should use them to scan up and down the roster that currently has guys like Greg Gaines, Nolan Turner, and Zyon McCollum starting.

But ultimately, you can't argue with a delusion. If you're actually sitting there, constructing elaborate scenarios where guys who suck stop sucking and Todd Bowles becomes not Todd Bowles, I'm not going to dissuade you with the obvious.

[MJW]

Good gooooood, let it flow through you...

If my choices are "hate" and "stupid" I'm comfortable with where I'm at. We'll be good again at some point and I'll be full of joy. You'll still be where you are.

[Grahamburn]

Good gooooood, let it flow through you...

If my choices are "hate" and "stupid" I'm comfortable with where I'm at. We'll be good again at some point and I'll be full of joy. You'll still be where you are.

What are you so upset about? I quoted another post asking what you'd have done differently with this off-season? You think they'll suck out loud. Ok? That's entirely possible. There are alternative possibilities. Some of us choose to look at things that way. Are you being purposefully pessimistic so you're pleasantly surprised if they actually win a few games?

They're literally fielding a "what if" upside team without borrowing from the future. It's literally what we've all pretty much described as the exact approach they should be taking.

[Kress]

Yea purposely taking delay of game penalties in the red zone because you feel your kicker is better from longer distances is "winning culture"...

It actually is, but it seems the conversation has moved on.