An exercise in love: Bucs sign lamar?

[Doctor]

So let's remove the mobility and style of play narrative.

Lets just switch him out for Burrow.
Are we still playing these games?

[acmillis]

So let's remove the mobility and style of play narrative.

Lets just switch him out for Burrow.
Are we still playing these games?

You mean the guy that, after his major injury, led his team to a SB appearance and has a 5-2 record in the playoffs...no, probably not as concerned with Burrow getting a fully guaranteed deal.

Lamar was great, then got injured, and has regressed since he plateaued.

[Doctor]

But the point is, no matter how much we cry about it, we're entering the age of fully guaranteed deals.

Now, that for other reasons Lamar ain't everyone's choice to be the third guy through the door, that's different.

[GreatTimes]

But the point is, no matter how much we cry about it, we're entering the age of fully guaranteed deals.

Now, that for other reasons Lamar ain't everyone's choice to be the third guy through the door, that's different.

The owners will never be big on guaranteed contracts. Too much at stake. If a player goes down in the first season of a multiyear contract due to a career ending injury, the team could be paying him for years. That is a detriment to the teams salary cap. Another problem is a player could just go retired on active contract. Not playing as well as he could while collecting a paycheck. Been done before. Other than Cleveland, owners of teams are not dumb.

[Bootz]

Interesting that career ending injuries are only mentioned when talking about long term deals that benefit players.

[Snake]

I’m a fan. There’s a salary cap. I prefer my team has flexibility and not potentially have 20% of their cap in the toilet because one player can’t stay healthy or declines.

The players we’re talking about get rich regardless of their contracts being guaranteed.

[Bootz]

I’m a fan. There’s a salary cap. I prefer my team has flexibility and not potentially have 20% of their cap in the toilet because one player can’t stay healthy or declines.

The players we’re talking about get rich regardless of their contracts being guaranteed.

So you're okay if multiple players get hurt resulting in 25% of the cap being in the toilet but one player who'll potentially cost 20% is too much.

At least you started this off with "I'm a fan". We know logic isn't even thrown out the window, it just doesn't exist.

[Grahamburn]

I’m a fan. There’s a salary cap. I prefer my team has flexibility and not potentially have 20% of their cap in the toilet because one player can’t stay healthy or declines.

The players we’re talking about get rich regardless of their contracts being guaranteed.

So you're okay if multiple players get hurt resulting in 25% of the cap being in the toilet but one player who'll potentially cost 20% is too much.

At least you started this off with "I'm a fan". We know logic isn't even thrown out the window, it just doesn't exist.

The cap is a massive part of the equation. If there wasn’t one we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

[MJW]

Let me take a different angle on this discussion.

You have two options to building a Superbowl team:

One, a JAG QB making 2% of your cap, with 98% going to the other 52 positions.

Two, A Mahomes/Burrow level QB making 30% of your cap with just 70% going to the other 52 positions.

I realize that I SHOULD say the first scenario is the way you'd want to do it. That's what we intelligent football fans are trained to think.

But it isn't. Not in 2023. Not in Goodell's NFL. Give me a superstar QB and surround him with guys, and I'll take my chances. Give me a ton of money but I have to start the kind of QB I can get for $3 mil a year or whatever? No thank you. I'd take Mahomes and entire team made of guys currently unsigned in the league over Some Guy at QB and a ton of money everywhere else.

[Digital_Damage]

Let me take a different angle on this discussion.

You have two options to building a Superbowl team:

One, a JAG QB making 2% of your cap, with 98% going to the other 52 positions.

Two, A Mahomes/Burrow level QB making 30% of your cap with just 70% going to the other 52 positions.

I realize that I SHOULD say the first scenario is the way you'd want to do it. That's what we intelligent football fans are trained to think.

But it isn't. Not in 2023. Not in Goodell's NFL. Give me a superstar QB and surround him with guys, and I'll take my chances. Give me a ton of money but I have to start the kind of QB I can get for $3 mil a year or whatever? No thank you. I'd take Mahomes and entire team made of guys currently unsigned in the league over Some Guy at QB and a ton of money everywhere else.

30%? No.

20-25% for a Top 5? yes.

[Selmon Rules]

I expect the market to open up after the draft. Teams will assume they will be picking later with LJ than they will this year.

My opinion

[Doctor]

It's not just your opinion, at this point it's the predominant theory. It makes no sense to jump the gun and make a move before the draft.

[Grahamburn]

But we aren’t talking about Mahomes or Burrow absorbing 25-30% of the cap. We’re talking about 1 playoff win on his rookie deal Lamar Jackson taking up 25-30% of the cap. Plus the picks to acquire him.

It’s idiotic.

[GreatTimes]

I expect the market to open up after the draft. Teams will assume they will be picking later with LJ than they will this year.

My opinion

You are going to have 5 NFL teams who will pick a QB in the first 2 rounds of the draft. Maybe more. That doesn't open the market, it reduces the market. After the draft, how man teams won't have a QB? Of those teams, how many have the cap space to sign LJ? Any team that signs LJ will need to cut a number of high priced veterans to fit LJ under the salary cap.

[Doctor]

You're not paying for his past (though the Ravens do still owe him for that).

You're paying for what he can do for you coming up. Remind me Stafford's playoff record before LA? You just need one great run. Boom. Chip.

[GreatTimes]

You're not paying for his past (though the Ravens do still owe him for that).

You're paying for what he can do for you coming up. Remind me Stafford's playoff record before LA? You just need one great run. Boom. Chip.

Which proves the point that a good QB can take a team to the SB, but a good QB can't take a bad team to the SB. Any team that signs LJ to the contract demands that LJ is demanding along with the lost draft picks is going to make that team a bad team. With LJ taking up such a large percentage of the salary cap, that inhibits that team from resigning their own best players and signing any top free agents.

[Bootz]

You're not paying for his past (though the Ravens do still owe him for that).

You're paying for what he can do for you coming up. Remind me Stafford's playoff record before LA? You just need one great run. Boom. Chip.

Which proves the point that a good QB can take a team to the SB, but a good QB can't take a bad team to the SB. Any team that signs LJ to the contract demands that LJ is demanding along with the lost draft picks is going to make that team a bad team. With LJ taking up such a large percentage of the salary cap, that inhibits that team from resigning their own best players and signing any top free agents.

That's an incredibly short-sighted argument. You're essentially saying that if a QB doesn't win a SB in their rookie season or say by year 2 or 3, then they aren't good enough to do so at all and teams shouldn't bother signing them to a deal where they'll take up a high percentage of the cap.

By your example, Josh Allen, Kyler Murray, Deshaun Watson are never winning one. Once Burrow, Herbert, Hurts and Tua sign their long term deals, they'll never win one either.

[Doctor]

Stafford playoff record before his SB run...

[GreatTimes]

Botz wrote "That's an incredibly short-sighted argument. You're essentially saying that if a QB doesn't win a SB in their rookie season or say by year 2 or 3, then they aren't good enough to do so at all and teams shouldn't bother signing them to a deal where they'll take up a high percentage of the cap."
I don't know how you came up with that conclusion from what I posted. Your comprehension skills need a lot of work.
Doctor Wrote "Stafford playoff record before his SB run..." Was poor because the Lions were a bad team. Your comprehension skills also need a lot of work.

[Grahamburn]

You're not paying for his past (though the Ravens do still owe him for that).

You're paying for what he can do for you coming up. Remind me Stafford's playoff record before LA? You just need one great run. Boom. Chip.

Remind me. Was Stafford’s biggest asset his legs?

[Digital_Damage]

You're not paying for his past (though the Ravens do still owe him for that).

You're paying for what he can do for you coming up. Remind me Stafford's playoff record before LA? You just need one great run. Boom. Chip.

Glad we agree on something... you should be paying for what you will get out of a player instead of what they have done.

Jackson is not a top 10 QB and will do fuck all.

Does that put this all to rest?

[Doctor]

Yes and no. There is something to be said about "taking care of your guys", especially if they are playing for way under what you know they should be. Other guys see that and are more willing to play ball to help the team if they have faith that it'll come back around. If they see the FO is just going to try to get the most from you for the least, every time, F U, then they too are going to play immediate hardball every time.

Lamar fucked up not holding out years ago. Oh well. He honored his deal and finished it. They are the ones not letting him go.

Also, you're dead wrong on Lamar. Poorly timed injuries during the most important part of the season suck, yes. But you know damn well that having Lamar for a playoff run makes any team dangerous. Especially if it's a great fit and finally an offense with talent.

[Digital_Damage]

Talk about some flip-flopping nonsense... you can't even stick to a position when it comes to him.

How dangerous were they in 2018, 2019 or 2020 with him? They were not...

There is just no way you can make a case within the bounds of reason for him. Al Bundy is done for.

[Buc2]

You're not paying for his past (though the Ravens do still owe him for that).

You're paying for what he can do for you coming up. Remind me Stafford's playoff record before LA? You just need one great run. Boom. Chip.

So to be clear, if you were in charge of the Bucs, you’d do the Lamar deal if you could?

[Snake]

It gets progressively harder to stay healthy (or healthy enough to play) as a season progresses. Lamar getting hurt late is seen as worse than him getting ticky tack stuff early on.

[Grahamburn]

It gets progressively harder to stay healthy (or healthy enough to play) as a season progresses. Lamar getting hurt late is seen as worse than him getting ticky tack stuff early on.

His playing style leads to his injuries. He has been hurt because he's not a good pocket player. His injuries have actually come inside the pocket. Adding all of the designed runs just exacerbates his injury risk.

[Buc2]

It gets progressively harder to stay healthy (or healthy enough to play) as a season progresses. Lamar getting hurt late is seen as worse than him getting ticky tack stuff early on.

His playing style leads to his injuries. He has been hurt because he's not a good pocket player. His injuries have actually come inside the pocket. Adding all of the designed runs just exacerbates his injury risk.

I guess he hasn’t leaned to protect himself in the pocket, a la Brady?

[Grahamburn]

His playing style leads to his injuries. He has been hurt because he's not a good pocket player. His injuries have actually come inside the pocket. Adding all of the designed runs just exacerbates his injury risk.

I guess he hasn’t leaned to protect himself in the pocket, a la Brady?

Lamar's natural instinct when there's pressure is to scramble. It gets him hit. Obviously one of Brady's best assets as a QB was being able to navigate the pocket and/or get rid of it without making a negative play or taking a big hit. Brady was maddeningly frustrating with it last year, but he didn't turn it over or take sacks in the face of pressure.

[Doctor]

Let's remove Lamar.

Next in line is Hurts, followed by Burrow and Herbert.
Each asking for $200M+ guaranteed.
Are we playing silly games?

[Bootz]

Let's remove Lamar.

Next in line is Hurts, followed by Burrow and Herbert.
Each asking for $200M+ guaranteed.
Are we playing silly games?

I saw someone make the argument that Lamar has only 1 more playoff win. That's 1 more than Herbert, so that means no on him. Burrow & Hurts have won championship games. Hurts had a phenomenal Super Bowl and would've won had they played any other QB not name Patrick Mahomes. Gotta think him & Burrow are next. Especially when guys like Kyler Murray and Josh Allen have been given large extensions worth over $200mil

[Snake]

Let's remove Lamar.

Next in line is Hurts, followed by Burrow and Herbert.
Each asking for $200M+ guaranteed.
Are we playing silly games?

The cap inflates by a good number every season. Of course $200m+ guarantees will eventually become the norm for franchise QBs over multiple years. But that still doesn’t mean fully guaranteed contracts. two different things.

[Digital_Damage]

Let's remove Lamar.

Next in line is Hurts, followed by Burrow and Herbert.
Each asking for $200M+ guaranteed.
Are we playing silly games?

You seem to be the only one playing games here... You have tried this tactic already... try another angle.

[Digital_Damage]

Don't know why people are talking about Murray on here as an example... that is another full retard moment by an organization.

[MJW]

You're not paying for his past (though the Ravens do still owe him for that).

This would be a good time to mention that Lamar's best season was four years ago, and his last healthy season was three years ago, but he still expects to get paid as if it's the future.

I don't honestly think it is. I have no agenda as I say that. He's just not the same guy he was during his MVP season and with his style of play, I'm very dubious he will be again, and I sure wouldn't want to pay him like I expect him to be. This feels very much like a burgeoning, "the light that burns twice as bright" type of scenario. And I'll go a step further and say that I would be shocked if a 4 or 5 year contract isn't an albatross by the time it's over. Which is exactly why nobody wants to fully guarantee it.

[MJW]

It gets progressively harder to stay healthy (or healthy enough to play) as a season progresses. Lamar getting hurt late is seen as worse than him getting ticky tack stuff early on.

That's part of the issue too. It's entirely possible that you'd need 21 games from him to win a ring. I don't see that.