The Damage

[Bootz]

2008 & 2013: The last 2 times the Bucs fired their GM.

Agreed. The people who aren't fooling themselves are already down from the high of winning it all 3 years ago.

[acmillis]

2008 & 2013: The last 2 times the Bucs fired their GM.

Agreed. The people who aren't fooling themselves are already down from the high of winning it all 3 years ago.

Being down from the high and being pissed about the situation we're in (cap-wise) can be said in the same breath.

You seem to be saying that keeping the band together last year was bad because...reasons. Now, we're paying for it this year (and next, but minimally), and you want to call people out for what reason again?

[MJW]

2008 & 2013: The last 2 times the Bucs fired their GM.

Agreed. The people who aren't fooling themselves are already down from the high of winning it all 3 years ago.

Being down from the high and being pissed about the situation we're in (cap-wise) can be said in the same breath.

You seem to be saying that keeping the band together last year was bad because...reasons. Now, we're paying for it this year (and next, but minimally), and you want to call people out for what reason again?

Here are a collection of things I believe that can all coexist IMHO:

1) Licht made A LOT of mistakes the last two offseasons. Let's start there.
2) The mistakes of the last two offsesasons are a much, much smaller deal because we got the chip.
3) The mistakes are NOT because we tried to keep the window open. We had the GOAT and a lot of talent.
4) Trying to "keep the band together" in 2021 was a horrible idea. There was seemingly no interest in upgrading where possible. Arians's obsession with loyalty, and Licht's willingness to indulge it, led to a myopic approach to roster construction.
5) The way Licht was able to add talented players on a tight budget in 2022 was commendable. Him doing so in the areas he did - WR and DB, mostly - was a huge mistake. We got the chip because of the OL and the Front Seven. Those should have been where the money went, not 3rd receivers and situational safeties.
6) The last two drafts, to this point, have utterly sucked. It is still early. But between reaching for need and simply misjudging talent, these last two drafts have the stink of Licht's early days.
7) I have almost no faith Licht is the guy to rebuild this roster. It took 7 years and Tom Brady falling into his lap last time.
8) Licht knowing his seat is getting hot means he will not be primarily motivated by the long-term health of the team. That scares me. He should have been dismissed on these grounds if no others. You can't have a GM thinking about next season when you're not in a position to contend.
9) The almost comically slim possibility of putting together a contending roster became irrelevant when Bowles was retained. This roster will not be remotely good enough to compensate for his mediocrity, nor a sub-.500 record win the division again.
10) You can value what Licht has done for this franchise...and BA...and Bowles...and a bunch of guys on this roster...and 100% recognize they're no longer part of the solution. And if they're not, why are they still here?

[Doctor]

Wow. Just wow. Heard it on the TV the other day, you can tell how badly you screwed up letting go of someone by how quickly they are picked up. Licht would be scooped up so fast as a GM.

Licht would literally have everything on his resume that we would want from our next "good" GM. Everything.
It's amazing how, depending on the argument, people will shift credit and blame arouns. Brady haters have used "superior talent" to discredit Bradys amazing run here, then some Buc fans took it to discredit Arians, before realizing... the grass isn't greener. He both gifted guys like Arians all their success but simultaneously was powerless to gift Lefty any because... cognitive dissonance.

Brady "fell to his lap" is such a disingenuous and cowardly statement. As if we weren't the most mouth watering situation for him or any veteran QB. A situation Licht built and has a history of building, in multiple cities for multiple teams and multiple coaching staffs.


Imagine building a roster and a front office that gave us one of the absolutely best teams in franchise and NFL history and then having someone say... "yeah but you signed Julio Jones so I think we should let you go".

I can't... I just can't... honestly it's like some of you hate winning. Or more accurately are just so accustomed to reaching for the "reset everything" button, you simply don't know how winning franchises are run. I don't know if Ozzie, BB, or Tomlin will ever win another super bowl, but I'll laugh in the face of anyone who confidently declares "not until those guys are fired".

[Bootz]

Wow. Just wow. Heard it on the TV the other day, you can tell how badly you screwed up letting go of someone by how quickly they are picked up. Licht would be scooped up so fast as a GM.

Licht would literally have everything on his resume that we would want from our next "good" GM. Everything.
It's amazing how, depending on the argument, people will shift credit and blame arouns. Brady haters have used "superior talent" to discredit Bradys amazing run here and Buc fans took it to discredit Arians, before realizing... the grass isn't greener. He both gifted guys like Arians all their success but simultaneously was powerless to gift Lefty any because... cognitive dissonance.

Brady "fell to his lap" is such a disingenuous and cowardly statement. As if we weren't the most mouth watering situation for him or any veteran QB. A situation Licht built and has a history of building, in multiple cities for multiple teams and multiple coaching staffs.


Imagine building a roster and a front office that gave us one of the absolutely best teams in franchise and NFL history and then having someone say... "yeah but you signed Julio Jones so I think we should let you go".

I can't... I just can't... honestly it's like some of you hate winning. Or more accurately are just so accustomed to reaching for the "reset everything" button, you simply don't know how winning franchises are run. I don't know if Ozzie, BB, or Tomlin will ever win another super bowl, but I'll laugh in the face of anyone who confidently declares "not until those guys are fired".

9 seasons as GM
66-80 regular season record
3 playoff appearances
5-2 playoff record
1 SB
4 last place finishes
6 losing seasons

Sounds about average at best to me

[Grahamburn]

That 2021 team was fantastic. They didn't have the same injury (or AB non-drama) luck rolling into the playoffs. I don't see how you disparage Licht for trying to keep that together. 2022 was a scramble, but Brady came back, so you have to scramble.

[Doctor]

And the shifting begins.

Team record tells you as much about a GM as the wonderlic does about a QB. "Lets just re-arrange this argument to pretend that all of the sudden this isn't a team sport and there is no actual nuance". Howie Roseman was a .500 GM before his team won 14 games and went to the Super Bowl last year.

You don't think there are other huge factors in play, like did you inherit or land a franchise QB? Did he fit your coaching staff?
According to you BB is the best GM of all time, right?
Do you believe that statement is true with or without Brady in his life?
If not, then should that be factored in when comparing him to say John Lynch or Howie?

[GreatTimes]

Was it worth it to go into salary cap hell for the 2023 season. Yes, it was. The Bucs won it all in 2020 and just missed going to the SB in 2021. There was a good chance the Bucs could continue that success. That is until Gronk and Marpet retired, Jensen was lost for the season with injury and Brady had his personal problems. Ariens retired and Bowles and Lefty didn't do the job that was expected of them. The wheels came off in 2022 even though the Bucs still made the playoffs.
To get out od salary cap hell the Bucs can choose to do it piecemeal by making a lot of moves that kicks the can down the road, or make a couple of very unpopular moves, that resolves the salary issue but leaves the team without some key players. Those players can be replaced in the draft or cheaper free agents. We will find out which way the Bucs go in the next 15 days when the Bucs have to be under the salary cap.

[Buc2]

Wow. Just wow. Heard it on the TV the other day, you can tell how badly you screwed up letting go of someone by how quickly they are picked up. Licht would be scooped up so fast as a GM.

Licht would literally have everything on his resume that we would want from our next "good" GM. Everything.
It's amazing how, depending on the argument, people will shift credit and blame arouns. Brady haters have used "superior talent" to discredit Bradys amazing run here, then some Buc fans took it to discredit Arians, before realizing... the grass isn't greener. He both gifted guys like Arians all their success but simultaneously was powerless to gift Lefty any because... cognitive dissonance.

Brady "fell to his lap" is such a disingenuous and cowardly statement. As if we weren't the most mouth watering situation for him or any veteran QB. A situation Licht built and has a history of building, in multiple cities for multiple teams and multiple coaching staffs.


Imagine building a roster and a front office that gave us one of the absolutely best teams in franchise and NFL history and then having someone say... "yeah but you signed Julio Jones so I think we should let you go".

I can't... I just can't... honestly it's like some of you hate winning. Or more accurately are just so accustomed to reaching for the "reset everything" button, you simply don't know how winning franchises are run. I don't know if Ozzie, BB, or Tomlin will ever win another super bowl, but I'll laugh in the face of anyone who confidently declares "not until those guys are fired".

Only from the fans, Doc. Only from the fans. None of us have a clue how to evaluate an NFL GM.

You ever wonder how the NFL became a “what have you done for me lately” league? It’s because they’re trying to pander to what their fans think they want. Fans that have the attention span of a toddler and the knowledge of an intern in his junior year of college…just enough to speak the language but, given the opportunity, would crash and burn spectacularly if ever allowed out of the sandbox.

And, yes, I’m included in the above. I can rail all I want about this, that, or the other. But the reality is that I don’t know Jack Shit.

[Buc2]

Wow. Just wow. Heard it on the TV the other day, you can tell how badly you screwed up letting go of someone by how quickly they are picked up. Licht would be scooped up so fast as a GM.

Licht would literally have everything on his resume that we would want from our next "good" GM. Everything.
It's amazing how, depending on the argument, people will shift credit and blame arouns. Brady haters have used "superior talent" to discredit Bradys amazing run here, then some Buc fans took it to discredit Arians, before realizing... the grass isn't greener. He both gifted guys like Arians all their success but simultaneously was powerless to gift Lefty any because... cognitive dissonance.

Brady "fell to his lap" is such a disingenuous and cowardly statement. As if we weren't the most mouth watering situation for him or any veteran QB. A situation Licht built and has a history of building, in multiple cities for multiple teams and multiple coaching staffs.


Imagine building a roster and a front office that gave us one of the absolutely best teams in franchise and NFL history and then having someone say... "yeah but you signed Julio Jones so I think we should let you go".

I can't... I just can't... honestly it's like some of you hate winning. Or more accurately are just so accustomed to reaching for the "reset everything" button, you simply don't know how winning franchises are run. I don't know if Ozzie, BB, or Tomlin will ever win another super bowl, but I'll laugh in the face of anyone who confidently declares "not until those guys are fired".

Only from the fans, Doc. Only from the fans. None of us have a clue how to evaluate an NFL GM.

You ever wonder how the NFL became a “what have you done for me lately” league? It’s because they’re trying to pander to what their fans think they want. Fans that have the attention span of a toddler and, maybe at most, the knowledge of an intern in his junior year of college…just enough to speak the language but, given the opportunity, would crash and burn spectacularly if ever allowed out of the sandbox.

And, yes, I’m included in the above. I can rail all I want about this, that, or the other. But the reality is that I don’t know Jack Shit.

[mdb1958]

Patiently awaiting how he handles things this year.

[Buc2]

Patiently awaiting how he handles things this year.

I think it will be his most trying year by far.

[mdb1958]

Patiently awaiting how he handles things this year.

I think it will be his most trying year by far.

His whole time here he has been thinking there is nothing there when thinking about the back of the draft.

[Buc2]

I think it will be his most trying year by far.

His whole time here he has been thinking there is nothing there when thinking about the back of the draft.

Yeah, but drafting players way before he should have doesn’t make them less of a reach (Aguayo and Trask come to mind).

[Cheb]

I would not fire Licht, nor throw him under the bus.

He bought us a nice gift (the Superbowl) and used the credit card (future cap and void years) to try to do it again twice. I'm not going to get mad at him now because we have to pay the Visa bill. Some here apparently would.

I think that's incredibly shortsighted. Licht knows how to build a winner, and I would trust him to build another one once we get out of cap hell and rebuild.

In the past three years, the Bucs have 32 regular season wins, the most successful three year run in franchise history with a goddamn Superbowl win, and y'all want to run the GM responsible out of town? For what, exactly? Because he didn't win three straight Superbowls?

Jesus Christ.

[Snake]

I don’t love how he used the credit card post-SB season. I think the teams could’ve been better. Echoing MJW’s thoughts overall.

[Bootz]

I don’t love how he used the credit card post-SB season. I think the teams could’ve been better. Echoing MJW’s thoughts overall.

And that's the difference really. Complacency will get you canned quickly in this league. Licht got complacent.

I suppose that works in a city like Tampa, with a very low standard of success historically. Fans will say "Yea we suck now, but we won the Super Bowl 3 years ago. 5 years ago. 10 years ago".

[Doctor]

How was he complacent? He was SUPER proactive in bringing back the squad and "giving Brady every/anything he needs". Which was literally what everyone from us, to pundits, to FO staff themselves was saying was the plan. And despite all odds, he did it. He did it spectacularly. Literally, the first time ever that a whole SB squad was brought back.

Making history doing what no GM has ever been able to do is "complacent".
Having a transition plan in place at virtually every position was "complacent".
Adjusting that plan to welcome back the GOAT, but still structuring it so that you take the brunt of costs during the same year you were transitioning to your cheaper, possible future QB, so that you can still extend your soon to be FA franchise players the following year is "complacent".


The last five years have been a master class at GMing. Literally, the only way it could've been better would've been another chip. That's what we are splitting hairs over.

[Snake]

Licht 1of1

[Backside]

8) Licht knowing his seat is getting hot means he will not be primarily motivated by the long-term health of the team. That scares me. He should have been dismissed on these grounds if no others.

Firing someone because of what you perceive their mindset might be seems rather silly.

Sounds about average at best to me

But on the Yucs scale that is fucking fantastic.

[Bootz]

How was he complacent? He was SUPER proactive in bringing back the squad and "giving Brady every/anything he needs". Which was literally what everyone from us, to pundits, to FO staff themselves was saying was the plan. And despite all odds, he did it. He did it spectacularly. Literally, the first time ever that a whole SB squad was brought back.

Making history doing what no GM has ever been able to do is "complacent".
Having a transition plan in place at virtually every position was "complacent".
Adjusting that plan to welcome back the GOAT, but still structuring it so that you take the brunt of costs during the same year you were transitioning to your cheaper, possible future QB, so that you can still extend your soon to be FA franchise players the following year is "complacent".


The last five years have been a master class at GMing. Literally, the only way it could've been better would've been another chip. That's what we are splitting hairs over.

The entire premise of bringing the band back together is complacency. This isn't the high school talent show. In the NFL you have 31 other teams trying to get better so they can beat you. Everyone knows this. So knowing this did Licht and company try to get better? Nope, they said "nah, we're good". They decided to live off of the high of winning it all and bring everyone back to have a reunion tour.

You admit it yourself here: Making history trumped improving the team. What does making history and bringing everyone back accomplish? Absolutely nothing. It means you cared more about a headline than you did improving your team that was far from perfect.

[Doctor]

You're right, we should've let Shaq, Godwin, Jensen, and Davis all go and gotten better players to replace them. It's so obvious now.

[CantonJester]

All I know is I lost some good friends that past year because of the #@$! pandemic. I was 'eh' on Licht before he answered the phone with Brady on the line. The Bucs winning the Super Bowl was f#cking aces in my book.

[MJW]

Wow. Just wow. Heard it on the TV the other day, you can tell how badly you screwed up letting go of someone by how quickly they are picked up. Licht would be scooped up so fast as a GM.

Maybe? Who cares? Do you make your decisions based on what other people will do? Or do you do what's best for you?

Licht would literally have everything on his resume that we would want from our next "good" GM. Everything.

Sometimes things run their course. Many, many, many better coaches and front office people have simply run their course at various cities. Sometimes a new voice for the organization and a new location for the individual is better for everyone.

It's amazing how, depending on the argument, people will shift credit and blame arouns. Brady haters have used "superior talent" to discredit Bradys amazing run here, then some Buc fans took it to discredit Arians, before realizing... the grass isn't greener. He both gifted guys like Arians all their success but simultaneously was powerless to gift Lefty any because... cognitive dissonance.

You want to define "cognitive dissonance?

You're the same guy insisting a total rebuild isn't necessary because teams turn things around quick, right? Last time Licht had to build a team, it took him 7 years to reach the playoffs. 7 years, 3 coaches, a bunch of high draft picks. Why do you believe this situation is right for him now? What you makes you think he's the guy to turn things around quickly?

Brady "fell to his lap" is such a disingenuous and cowardly statement. As if we weren't the most mouth watering situation for him or any veteran QB. A situation Licht built and has a history of building, in multiple cities for multiple teams and multiple coaching staffs.

Yes, Brady fell into his lap. It's well documented we were not Brady's first or likely second choice. Congrats to him for being smarter than the GMs who passed. If they hadn't, we would have ended up with Teddy Bridgewater or Jameis again. That's straight from the horses's mouth.

In the meantime, if we're treating his time as an assistant as him "building things," there are lots of assistants we should be talking to right now.

Imagine building a roster and a front office that gave us one of the absolutely best teams in franchise and NFL history and then having someone say... "yeah but you signed Julio Jones so I think we should let you go".

Who said that? Are you capable of making a genuine argument or is it just straw men?

I can't... I just can't... honestly it's like some of you hate winning. Or more accurately are just so accustomed to reaching for the "reset everything" button, you simply don't know how winning franchises are run. I don't know if Ozzie, BB, or Tomlin will ever win another super bowl, but I'll laugh in the face of anyone who confidently declares "not until those guys are fired".

I don't think Licht gets us back there. We can talk about why (I've been trying, you don't seem up to it.) But if you're arguing he should get a lifetime pass because of things that happened in the past, then I can't...I just...can't.

In the meantime, the idea you'd mention him in the same breath as those other GMs is hilarious. Fun fact: Without Bruce Arians - a HOF coach - Licht's record as GM is 36-62. But that doesn't matter because something something cognitive dissonance, right?

[mdb1958]

Them fast linebackers may have trimmed the interest for LVD some.

[Obsolete]

Them fast linebackers may have trimmed the interest for LVD some.

Speed isnt everything.
Would you rather have LVD or Devin White?
Devin White is a bit more physically faster but LVD is way more technically sound, mentally faster, and a ton more instinctive.

[MJW]

Them fast linebackers may have trimmed the interest for LVD some.

Speed isnt everything.
Would you rather have LVD or Devin White?
Devin White is a bit more physically faster but LVD is way more technically sound, mentally faster, and a ton more instinctive.

Yep. The 4.8 linebacker will make more plays than the 4.4 linebacker if the 4.8 linebacker takes a half-second less to diagnose where the ball is going.

[mdb1958]

Well, it's my understanding that we can't pay LVD and next year won't pay Devin White.

[mdb1958]

@Obsolete

I meant interest from other teams in regards to LVD.

[Obsolete]

Well, it's my understanding that we can't pay LVD and next year won't pay Devin White.

We would actually save money by re-signing LVD to a 3yr deal. I read somewhere that his cap hit could possibly go down to either 2 or 3 mil this year if re-signed.

[Jonny]

Licht is a very questionable drafter. That is the one
and only reason I'm not excited about him. Wirfs, Evans, Godwin and Marpet are the only consistently good players he's drafted in 9 drafts. Davis and Vea are a tier below them. I hear people rave about how amazing Winfield Jr and DW are, but I don't get the hype.

We have not drafted one good RB so far. It seems like other teams manage to find their Taylor Allgeiers, Pachecos, Elijah Mitchells etc in late rounds and yet we cannot seem to hit on even one difference maker despite investing 2nd and 3rd round picks on that position multiple times. Now it is possible that our coaching staff is pretty shitty or our O-line play has always been terrible in run blocking. But this is half of the offense that has always always been a major struggle since Licht's era began in Tampa. This year we need the run game to pop and become the offense, since Trask may be more Glennon than he is Winston.

On defense I don't have much faith in his ability to draft good pass rushers.

I fully understand why Licht deserves a year or two to be the one to rebuild. Winning the SB gives you that luxury. But with continued questionable drafting and not being able to make enough moves in the free agency because of cap hell, I think the writing is on the wall for Licht.

[GreatTimes]

How much over the salary cap are the Bucs after their latest moves of cutting players?

[Doctor]

It took him 7 years....
Oh no! Not seven whole years!!

No one is saying lifetime pass, but ffs, what you're advocating for is rotating GMs to keep the HC fresh!

How long since Steelers or Ravens won? Have they "ran their course"?

[mdb1958]

How much over the salary cap are the Bucs after their latest moves of cutting players?

$-57,027,890 Spotrac

Not sure if updated yet.

[MJW]

It took him 7 years....
Oh no! Not seven whole years!!

No one is saying lifetime pass, but ffs, what you're advocating for is rotating GMs to keep the HC fresh!

How long since Steelers or Ravens won? Have they "ran their course"?

Aren't you the same guy who keeps saying that there's no need to rebuild properly because turnarounds are super quick now?