The Damage

This section is for discussions involving the Buccaneers as a team, and other teams in the NFL.
Post Reply
User avatar
Bootz
Posts: 5944
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2023 1:55 pm
Reputation: 1510
Location: In that dome of yours

Re: The Damage

Post by Bootz »

Snake wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 5:27 pm Why don’t they want to pay him?

Again, they know him better than anyone. Medically, habits, personality, etc.

Is it the end of season injuries?
Same reason DaCosta didn't want to pay Marquise Brown or Orlando Brown or Matthew Judon. He believes in value more than valuable players.
Most hated man in America.
User avatar
Doctor
Posts: 4322
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:02 pm
Reputation: 1087

Re: The Damage

Post by Doctor »

Snake wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 5:27 pm Why don’t they want to pay him?

Again, they know him better than anyone. Medically, habits, personality, etc.

Is it the end of season injuries?
I think they are fine with paying him (the overall number was high) they just don't want to make it fully guaranteed or set the precedent for that being the new standard.
Image
real bucs fan
Posts: 576
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:49 am
Reputation: 160

Re: The Damage

Post by real bucs fan »

Fuck it, I’m in.
User avatar
kaimaru
Posts: 2338
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:54 pm
Reputation: 464

Re: The Damage

Post by kaimaru »

So am I, do it Dom!
mdb1958
Posts: 7411
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:11 pm
Reputation: 21

Re: The Damage

Post by mdb1958 »

Bootz wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 5:34 pm
Snake wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 5:27 pm Why don’t they want to pay him?

Again, they know him better than anyone. Medically, habits, personality, etc.

Is it the end of season injuries?
Same reason DaCosta didn't want to pay Marquise Brown or Orlando Brown or Matthew Judon. He believes in value more than valuable players.

Fully guaranteed adds I don't care/I got mine into it even if it is never heard.
User avatar
MJW
Posts: 4488
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:21 pm
Reputation: 2037

Re: The Damage

Post by MJW »

Snake wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 5:27 pm Why don’t they want to pay him?

Again, they know him better than anyone. Medically, habits, personality, etc.

Is it the end of season injuries?
A full guaranteed deal to the most run-centric QB in NFL history, who's missed 10 games the last two years, who is more dependent on his legs and athleticism than any QB in the league, who has never approached the highs of his best season (2019, 4 years ago now) and may never do so again?

I can 100% understand not wanting to give this guy a fully guaranteed contract. There's every possibility it will be cap cancer sooner rather than later.

And that's before you get into the reported pouting and erratic behavior, the general lack of development as a passer, etc, etc. Or the legitimate question if this style of offense/quarterbacking can win you 4 playoff games.

I think the Ravens are playing this perfectly. Let the market negotiate with him. Decide if you like the deal or not. If not, two firsts and a shit-ton of cap room you no longer have to allocate to the position. Presumably, you'll do what you can to manipulate the destination so you get a high first. Combine that if needed with your other first and you can find a guy you love in this very class. Or you can hang back, draft BPA and let Tyler Huntley grow, and look to next year when you'll have two firsts again.
"So let's get to the point
Let's roll another joint
And let's head on down the road
There's somewhere I got to go..."
BucsNBills
Posts: 2127
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2022 1:50 pm
Reputation: 535

Re: The Damage

Post by BucsNBills »

I find it a bit interesting that we're 8 days away from the new league year and cap compliance yet we've made only a few cuts and zero restructuring. We're still over $40mil in the red and we only have 8 days to get to $0.

Might be nothing but you'd think if the plan at OBP was to do that minimum needed to get cap compliant while having no plans for any big moves, that Licht would've already been whittling down our cap debt and moving towards that goal.

I take the Bucs lack of action as an indication that there's at least some discussions or brainstorming going on and options are being weighed. Obviously that's just a feeling and I could be wrong, but I'm choosing to believe that there are some long discussions going on now where the topic of making a run at Lamar Jackson is at the heart of it.

I don't care if I'm wrong. That's my truth and I'm sticking to it.
acmillis
Posts: 2754
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:47 pm
Reputation: 990

Re: The Damage

Post by acmillis »

BucsNBills wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 7:33 am I find it a bit interesting that we're 8 days away from the new league year and cap compliance yet we've made only a few cuts and zero restructuring. We're still over $40mil in the red and we only have 8 days to get to $0.

Might be nothing but you'd think if the plan at OBP was to do that minimum needed to get cap compliant while having no plans for any big moves, that Licht would've already been whittling down our cap debt and moving towards that goal.

I take the Bucs lack of action as an indication that there's at least some discussions or brainstorming going on and options are being weighed. Obviously that's just a feeling and I could be wrong, but I'm choosing to believe that there are some long discussions going on now where the topic of making a run at Lamar Jackson is at the heart of it.

I don't care if I'm wrong. That's my truth and I'm sticking to it.
What's the advantage for TB to announce that we're "making these moves" (getting under the cap) now instead of next week?
User avatar
Cheb
Posts: 3764
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:37 pm
Reputation: 2348
Location: West Coast

Re: The Damage

Post by Cheb »

BucsNBills wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 7:33 am I find it a bit interesting that we're 8 days away from the new league year and cap compliance yet we've made only a few cuts and zero restructuring. We're still over $40mil in the red and we only have 8 days to get to $0.

Might be nothing but you'd think if the plan at OBP was to do that minimum needed to get cap compliant while having no plans for any big moves, that Licht would've already been whittling down our cap debt and moving towards that goal.

I take the Bucs lack of action as an indication that there's at least some discussions or brainstorming going on and options are being weighed. Obviously that's just a feeling and I could be wrong, but I'm choosing to believe that there are some long discussions going on now where the topic of making a run at Lamar Jackson is at the heart of it.

I don't care if I'm wrong. That's my truth and I'm sticking to it.
I couldn't say much about Lamar Jackson and the Bucs' cap, beyond getting there would be painful. Even if we did first-year shenanigans like the Browns did with Deshaun Watson's contract, we would still need to pay Lamar around $10 million in his first season if we copy/pasted Watson's contract for him. Given that we are currently -$47,957,999 against the cap, would need another 10 for LJ, another 10 for our rookies, and I guess another 10 to fill out the roster with other inexpensive veterans, that means we would need to find nearly $80 million in cap space underneath the couch cushions.

Presumably we have a plan in place to get cap compliant, but I don't know what it is. Licht hasn't played many cards yet, but one of them he did play was a bit odd.

So far, we've cut Donovan Smith and it's been leaked that we are cutting Lenny and Brate. Those moves were not the odd part; what was unusual is the WAY that we cut Donovan Smith.

We had the option of designating Smith as a post June-1 cut. Had we done so we would have gotten $15.2 million in cap relief this season instead of the $9.9 million we got. And yet Jason Licht however chose to not do that, which I thought was a very curious choice. Why turn down $5 million dollars when you need every penny you can get?

Here's a bit of an explanation, curtosy of the33rdteam.com:
The June 1st designation allows teams to divide the accelerated charges across two seasons. While financially the end result is the same, this designation provides teams with more cap flexibility in the current year. After June 1st, future years’ prorated money no longer accelerates into the current league year. Instead, only the current year’s prorated bonuses count towards the salary cap. The remaining prorated money accelerates into the following season.

For example, prior to June 1st, a player with $5 million in prorated bonuses from 2022-2026 whose contract is terminated will have a $5 million dead money cap charge for 2022. Post June 1st, only $1 million will be charged against the cap in 2022, with the remaining $4 million accelerating to the 2023 league year.

Source: https://www.the33rdteam.com/category/tr ... n-the-nfl/
As far as I could see it, there's only two reasons that Licht would do this. The first scenario is that there is a guy that Licht plans on cutting who would net him more cap space if he were designated a June 1 cut, but given that there is no player on the roster who would net more than the $15.2 million in savings that designating Donovan Smith would have, I find that unlikely. The second option is that Licht wants to eat all the dead cap this year to try to reset for next season, and the only reason he didn't do this with Smith is that he has a plan to get under the cap by other means.

I DO find it interesting that we haven't announced any restructurings publicly. I cannot see a strategic advantage to holding onto them until the last minute; everyone knows that you have to be cap compliant in less than a week, so choosing not to say that we restructured player X or Y doesn't make any sense to me. If that's the case, then that leads me to believe that we haven't actually gotten any of these deals done, and I find that information unsettling.
Image
acmillis
Posts: 2754
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:47 pm
Reputation: 990

Re: The Damage

Post by acmillis »

@Cheb Wouldn't signing LJ (and therefore trading our 2023 1st), negate paying that 1st round draft pick's bonus, saving something like 5m? It ain't a lot, but it's something (at least I think based on not having to pay that first rounder).
Four Verticals
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:37 am
Reputation: 102

Re: The Damage

Post by Four Verticals »

Cheb wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 10:33 am

We had the option of designating Smith as a post June-1 cut. Had we done so we would have gotten $15.2 million in cap relief this season instead of the $9.9 million we got. And yet Jason Licht however chose to not do that
Do we know this wasn't done? I think a team can designate a player as a post June 1st cut even if the cut occurs before that time.
I DO find it interesting that we haven't announced any restructurings publicly. I cannot see a strategic advantage to holding onto them until the last minute; everyone knows that you have to be cap compliant in less than a week, so choosing not to say that we restructured player X or Y doesn't make any sense to me. If that's the case, then that leads me to believe that we haven't actually gotten any of these deals done, and I find that information unsettling.
For whatever reason teams (particularly the Bucs) don't announce restructures until they absolutely must. I don't think it is a particularly big deal.
User avatar
Bootz
Posts: 5944
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2023 1:55 pm
Reputation: 1510
Location: In that dome of yours

Re: The Damage

Post by Bootz »

Post June 1 savings aren't seen until June 2nd. That's why they are designated as such. We needed to shed $57mil+ by March 15. No one will be designated a June 1 cut.

The only difference is the CBA as of 2011 doesn't make you wait until June 1 to actually cut the player.
Most hated man in America.
User avatar
Cheb
Posts: 3764
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:37 pm
Reputation: 2348
Location: West Coast

Re: The Damage

Post by Cheb »

acmillis wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 10:55 am @Cheb Wouldn't signing LJ (and therefore trading our 2023 1st), negate paying that 1st round draft pick's bonus, saving something like 5m? It ain't a lot, but it's something (at least I think based on not having to pay that first rounder).
If the Bucs keep their #19 overall pick, they would have to pay him $2,781,263 against the cap in year one, so there's some savings there but not much. Here's a link to the table over at overthecap.com with the full chart for this year: https://overthecap.com/draft
Four Verticals wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 2:40 pm
Cheb wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 10:33 am

We had the option of designating Smith as a post June-1 cut. Had we done so we would have gotten $15.2 million in cap relief this season instead of the $9.9 million we got. And yet Jason Licht however chose to not do that
Do we know this wasn't done? I think a team can designate a player as a post June 1st cut even if the cut occurs before that time.
I DO find it interesting that we haven't announced any restructurings publicly. I cannot see a strategic advantage to holding onto them until the last minute; everyone knows that you have to be cap compliant in less than a week, so choosing not to say that we restructured player X or Y doesn't make any sense to me. If that's the case, then that leads me to believe that we haven't actually gotten any of these deals done, and I find that information unsettling.
For whatever reason teams (particularly the Bucs) don't announce restructures until they absolutely must. I don't think it is a particularly big deal.
To your first point, we know that Donovan Smith wasn't designated a June 1st cut because I looked up the numbers for Smith being cut in a "regular" fashion as opposed to being designated a June 1st cut. I made a big old list about which dudes would save us the most money and how much on the first page of this thread in specific regards to this designation. What happened is that instead of getting the $15.2 million in savings that I was anticipating we would have gotten had Donovan been designated a June 1st guy, we got a little less than $10 million in savings against the cap with a larger amount of dead cap. The only logical reason this would happen is because he wasn't given that June-1st cut designation. We had/have the opportunity to use that designation on two players every year, and we chose not to with Donovan Smith, who would have netted us the most savings of all the cuts we could have made. This I feel only happened because either we have a plan to get under the cap in a different fashion and/or Licht wanted to eat all the dead cap this year instead of spreading it out over this year and next, which he would have done had Smith gotten that June-1 cut designation.

For an example of what could have been, look at Byron Jones with the Dolphins. They are going to cut him, and have designated him to be a post-June 1 cut. Had they released him in a "regular" fashion as we did with Donovan Smith, they would only have gotten $3.5 million in cap relief with $14.8 million in dead cap. Given that they've given him that June 1 designation, they'll save $13.6 million with only $4.7 million in dead money for this season --- BUT instead of having an estimated $81 million in cap space for the 2024 season, they will only have $71 million. We could have done the same with Smith, but apparently Licht doesn't want to have dead money for the 2024 season, preferring to eat all the bad money this year to reset the damage.

To your second point, about teams not announcing restructures until they are forced to -- this just doesn't happen. If this were the case, then all the restructures would be sat on until a day before the new league year, and we just don't see that happen. For an example close to home, the Saints have been trickling in restructures throughout the offseason. The Chargers just announced their restructures of Mike Williams and Keenan Allen earlier today, just as the Dolphins did with Bradley Chubb.

---

As far as whether or not June 1 savings aren't seen until June 2nd, I'm not sure so I'll have to do some research. That would explain alot in that case. I've already been procrastinating enough at work today.
Image
GreatTimes
Posts: 901
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:24 pm
Reputation: 205

Re: The Damage

Post by GreatTimes »

Cheb wrote "apparently Licht doesn't want to have dead money for the 2024 season, preferring to eat all the bad money this year to reset the damage."
Agreed. The Bucs also could have asked Brady to defer his retirement papers until after June 1st to lessen the dead money this year but chose not to. The date to get under the salary cap is only 6 days away. I think the Glazers have instructed Licht to get rid of the dead cap this year. If so, there are going to be some very unpopular moves made in the next few days.
User avatar
Doctor
Posts: 4322
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:02 pm
Reputation: 1087

Re: The Damage

Post by Doctor »

I'd do $180M over 4 years, fully guaranteed.
10
50
60
60

No trade no tag. FA at 30 y/o.
Image
Grahamburn
Posts: 3146
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:50 pm
Reputation: 941

Re: The Damage

Post by Grahamburn »

Doctor wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:28 pm I'd do $180M over 4 years, fully guaranteed.
10
50
60
60

No trade no tag. FA at 30 y/o.
And Baltimore would match that without blinking.
Snake
Posts: 11416
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:58 pm
Reputation: 3007

Re: The Damage

Post by Snake »

Grahamburn wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:26 am
Doctor wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:28 pm I'd do $180M over 4 years, fully guaranteed.
10
50
60
60

No trade no tag. FA at 30 y/o.
And Baltimore would match that without blinking.
I really don’t think they would. That’s like 50m more guaranteed dollars than they supposedly offered.
Image
Grahamburn
Posts: 3146
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:50 pm
Reputation: 941

Re: The Damage

Post by Grahamburn »

Snake wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:28 am
Grahamburn wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:26 am

And Baltimore would match that without blinking.
I really don’t think they would. That’s like 50m more guaranteed dollars than they supposedly offered.
Which is nothing of course. It's a business. The Ravens are using the leverage they have perfectly. If Lamar is asking for the Watson deal, and he is, they're saying try your luck. Doesn't seem like it's going well so far.
User avatar
Bootz
Posts: 5944
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2023 1:55 pm
Reputation: 1510
Location: In that dome of yours

Re: The Damage

Post by Bootz »

Grahamburn wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:26 am
Doctor wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:28 pm I'd do $180M over 4 years, fully guaranteed.
10
50
60
60

No trade no tag. FA at 30 y/o.
And Baltimore would match that without blinking.
If they'd match a fully guaranteed deal without blinking they would've offered one to begin with. You're not making sense and I think you know it.
Most hated man in America.
User avatar
Bootz
Posts: 5944
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2023 1:55 pm
Reputation: 1510
Location: In that dome of yours

Re: The Damage

Post by Bootz »

Snake wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:28 am
Grahamburn wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:26 am

And Baltimore would match that without blinking.
I really don’t think they would. That’s like 50m more guaranteed dollars than they supposedly offered.
Not only is it $50mil more overall, it's more than twice as much guaranteed money per year than they offered. They wanted $133mil over 6 years. Now we're supposed to believe they'd be happy to give him $180mil over 4?

If theyd do that easily they're making themselves look like fools by going through this charade.
Most hated man in America.
Grahamburn
Posts: 3146
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:50 pm
Reputation: 941

Re: The Damage

Post by Grahamburn »

Bootz wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:40 am
Grahamburn wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:26 am

And Baltimore would match that without blinking.
If they'd match a fully guaranteed deal without blinking they would've offered one to begin with. You're not making sense and I think you know it.
Why would they offer it when they absolutely do not have to? They look brilliant.
Grahamburn
Posts: 3146
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:50 pm
Reputation: 941

Re: The Damage

Post by Grahamburn »

Bootz wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:42 am
Snake wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:28 am

I really don’t think they would. That’s like 50m more guaranteed dollars than they supposedly offered.
Not only is it $50mil more overall, it's more than twice as much guaranteed money per year than they offered. They wanted $133mil over 6 years. Now we're supposed to believe they'd be happy to give him $180mil over 4?

If theyd do that easily they're making themselves look like fools by going through this charade.
$50M is absolutely nothing to these teams. The Ravens are conducting business. Whatever their original offer was doesn't matter. Lamar didn't take it. That's fine. Exclusive tag. Go negotiate. We'll match whatever it is unless it's Cleveland Browns outlandish and if so we'll be happy to take the picks.
User avatar
MJW
Posts: 4488
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:21 pm
Reputation: 2037

Re: The Damage

Post by MJW »

The Ravens returned to being more like the "old" Ravens last year. 3rd in the league in PPG allowed, and they almost beat Cinci after allowing 17 points on the road, with their UDFA QB at the helm.

I think it's very possible they're saying, "Use LJ's $50 mil whatever to build the defense, Trent Dilfer up the offense behind the run game, and zig while the league is zagging."

I also think there's a not-insignificant possibility the Ravens are over it with LJ. I'm not saying all the negative stories/whispers about his attitude are true. Not at all. I don't know. But I am saying that if they ARE true, they might be perfectly content to collect two first rounders and open up a shit ton of cap room.
"So let's get to the point
Let's roll another joint
And let's head on down the road
There's somewhere I got to go..."
Post Reply