Speculating on Canales' Offense

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Nobody
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Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by Nobody »

Alright, so I've listened to his PC, and done enough research plus tape review to put some thoughts out here that I think have a fair (certainly not a lock) chance of holding up after year 1. This is just a pile of notes and then a few conclusions at the bottom.

PERSONNEL, FORMATION, MOTION, TEMPO

* I would expect a much higher frequency of 12 personnel with Otton and Kieft than we've seen.

* They love presnap motion of all kinds. They love moving their TE's and Slot players around at the snap and they'll do that after shifts. They get a lot of H-back motion mileage of all kinds of variety.

* You see a lot of intra-drive, situational tempo changes to eff with the defense and pick up an easy 1st down on & short or an easy pitch & catch chunk on 1st down.

RUN GAME

* Highest % of Zone annually for the last 5 years. KC and SF are a little behind but pretty close. Seattle is annually 68-70 % Zone in the run game with a very large % of that being Outside Zone where schematically you're bucket stepping > trying to outflank and seal > win the edge or create a cutback. They also do a host of things schematically to screw with run fits on the edge and hold the backside (which is normal in Outside Zone-heavy schemes) from WR Jet Motion the other way to a Boot-heavy package to sliding a TE under the formation the other way (which works with their Boot package).

* You see Seattle RB's have very productive (and extremely well-graded) years without upper echelon (or even passingly "mediocre") Run Blocking because of what they do schematically in the running game + surely how well they've taught the Zone system to all of their RBs over the years. Their OL do just enough while the scheme and very process + RB play does the rest. Raschad White should_absolutely_flourish in this offense. It plays right into his skillset.

* This is a HUGE change for us. The last 3 years (and 2 years especially), we were nearly the inverse. We've been Duo/Gap-heavy. About 2/3 of our Running Game is Big on Big or Seal & Pull. We double and climb and drive block and we don't do shenanigans to hold the backside or screw with run fits. That is not the Seahawk's scheme. I'm skeptical about certain personnel up front, but, as I wrote above, the effectiveness of this running game hasn't hinged upon outstanding personnel and dominating OL play. Its scheme + do enough with OL/TE + great WR blocking (we've got that!) + fantastic processers and balance-after-contact players at the RB position.

* They will absolutely run the ball on 3rd and 3 and you can even push that out to 4.

PASSING GAME

* Unlike TB of yore, this is not a Screen-heavy offense. Maybe that will tick up a bit given Godwin's capabilities there, but historically, they're low on Screen Targets. Arians et al offense uses the Perimeter Screen game as an extension of the Run Game. This offense has just used the Zone running game and various wrinkles off of that to generate a (hopefully) quick 5-6 yards off offense off an easy throw.

* Speaking of the above, (and again, unlike TB's offense the last years), they have a LOT of various Quick Game, leverage-based pitch & catch packages to take the duress off the QB position. Think Sean Payton type stuff here.

* A lot of pocket-moving, Sprint + Out/Hitch, a lot of play-action boot w/ a shallow cross or a TE sliding under the formation to mirror.

* An abundance of Levels concepts where you've got horizontals in opposite directions at 2, 8, 15 yards with a deep Over or a vert to stretch vertically.

* 25 % play-action vs our 15 and change last year. The last 3 years they've been between 25-30 % annually. They don't play-action as much as the tops in the league (they're about # 10/11 %-wise last 3 years), but they're about where we were in 2021 when we were # 1 DVOA Offense.

* When they do play-action, its two varieties. The first is the Outside Zone Boot game mentioned above where they're putting pressure on the flank or on one or two defenders and trying to generate 5 yards minimum (6+ on outflank or tackle-break or maybe a chunk on a bust) with layered Crosses the other way. The second is the explosives where they like to go Heavy personnel, max-protect and go verts with a lot of 9s and Deep Comebacks (Mike should flourish here) with a Corner or Deep Route under the 9 and maybe an Over route from the other side.

* Their 1st down passing % is pretty volatile year-to-year. Its hovered around 50 % mean with 54 % on the high end. Would like to see that mean be where the high end is minimum. But we'll see what it looks like with Canales calling plays and how much that 1st down frequency skews downward without a running threat QB to feature in the Pistol/ZRO/RPO game.

+++++++++++++++++++

Alright, that is what I'm seeing from the tape, from the data, and Canales PC. That is roughly my expectation in what we'll see. Pretty close to a reversal in most every key way.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by real bucs fan »

I think in short, it’s going to be a very balanced offence. Canales talked about things being simple but looking complicated to the D. Smaller playbook, but more presnap stuff to make things look different. Trying to keep the D off balance and the pass/run synergy where each opens things up for the other.

It’s funny, but if you watch Geno Smith last year, and you watch some Trask tape from Florida, they aren’t too dissimilar. Geno obviously has extra take off and run ability, but the way they push the ball around is pretty close. I think Canales believes he doesn’t need a #1 overall pick at QB. He believes that he can make a system where the QB looks better than they are. I think he believes Trask can do some of the things Geno did last year.

And to me that was the biggest thing. Arians offence was very demanding and needed elite QB play to run it. Basically everyone Arians worked with was a high first if not first overall, or the GOAT.

Canales on the other hand is going to bring a system where you don’t need that level of talent. And I think that was a big appeal since we don’t have the means to acquire that anyway.

Bottom line is Canales is going to build an offence to make the QBs life easy and I think Trask is going to get every opportunity.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by Bootz »

I'm expecting a lot of Darrell Bevell influence. Views the QB as a "point guard"? Easy reads, safe reads, heavy dose of the run. Not sure that style wins much these days but we'll see.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by Cheb »

Bootz wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:05 am I'm expecting a lot of Darrell Bevell influence. Views the QB as a "point guard"? Easy reads, safe reads, heavy dose of the run. Not sure that style wins much these days but we'll see.
Let's break this up into parts. Firstly, criticizing safe and easy reads.

Maybe it's just the engineer in me, but I've always thought that football defenses are machines made of people. They have different parts with specific characteristics and roles, are governed by known principles and rules, and will respond predictably to certain stimuli due to programmed behaviors. The job of an offensive coordinator is to study the machine during gameprep and then ask questions of it during the game, so that when the time is right he can break it.

When you understand the machine, safe and easy reads are the smartest way to beat it. You know what the machine will do when you feed it certain inputs, so feed it what you want and then smash it with a hammer when it's caught off-guard.

Let's look at all three Chiefs passing touchdowns in the Superbowl:







Notice a through-line? The Chiefs motioned the outside receiver down into the formation. As soon as that receiver passed the #2 receiver inside of them, the ball was snapped. The receiver then ran a route towards the sideline. In Kelce's case it was an out-and-up, for Toney and Moore it was simple arrow routes to the flat.

Kelce had a favorable matchup that was forced because of that motion; the safety rolled down to cover him the second he passed inside of the number 2 receiver, which is exactly what the Chiefs wanted. Andy Reid understood the rules of the machine he was up against, and when the time was right to score he exploited its' rules for six points. In Toney's and Moore's case, because their motion was done at speed which threatens push passes and jet-action, the Eagles had a rule where the corner responsible for him would immediately sprint across the field to respect such action. You'll notice that the Eagles corner started that sprint as soon as the motion man passed the #2 guy inside of him, which is exactly when the ball was snapped. Andy Reid again understood the rules of the machine, fed it a false input, then exploited the pre-programmed response for an easy pair of touchdowns.

Why do I point this out? Because none of these reads were "hard", nor did they require Superman to throw them the ball. They were what you scoffed at, safe and easy reads. Shit, half of the folks watching at home could have thrown the second two touchdowns cold with no warmup.

Easy and safe reads with a heavy dose of the run wins tons of games. The Chiefs in the Superbowl ran the ball 26 times and passed it 27. Philadelphia ran the ball about half the time during the regular season and it got them to the Superbowl.

I have no issues with Canales' stated philosophy. What will play out in time is seeing how well he understands the machines he's facing, to see if he can ask them meaningful questions in a logical manner so-as to defeat them when the time comes.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by BucsNBills »

Doesn't the 49ers/McVay style of offense turn all their Qbs into "point guards"? I mean Shanny's offense allowed Brock Purdy to operate at a very high level in his rookie year as Mr. Irrelevant.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by Nobody »

The potential McVay influence is a wild card. That + Godwin’s RAC ability could mean more LAR level of perimeter Screen game (including the LAR suite of counters off of it).
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by Sdbucs »

Bootz wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:05 am I'm expecting a lot of Darrell Bevell influence. Views the QB as a "point guard"? Easy reads, safe reads, heavy dose of the run. Not sure that style wins much these days but we'll see.
So like the 49ers and we need another weapon on offense to succeed.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by Bootz »

BucsNBills wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:46 am Doesn't the 49ers/McVay style of offense turn all their Qbs into "point guards"? I mean Shanny's offense allowed Brock Purdy to operate at a very high level in his rookie year as Mr. Irrelevant.
You need to have elite playmakers and an elite Oline for it to work. At all levels. The Niners have that. An offense featuring Christian McCaffery, Deebo Samuel, George Kittle and Trent Williams, would work with you or I playing QB.

@Sdbucs Exactly. More than just another. We need several
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by BucsNBills »

Bootz wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:02 pm
BucsNBills wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:46 am Doesn't the 49ers/McVay style of offense turn all their Qbs into "point guards"? I mean Shanny's offense allowed Brock Purdy to operate at a very high level in his rookie year as Mr. Irrelevant.
You need to have elite playmakers and an elite Oline for it to work. At all levels. The Niners have that. An offense featuring Christian McCaffery, Deebo Samuel, George Kittle and Trent Williams, would work with you or I playing QB.

@Sdbucs Exactly. More than just another. We need several
So Bijan Robinson, Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, and Tristan Wirfs? Seems like a good start anyway.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by Bootz »

BucsNBills wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:04 pm
Bootz wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:02 pm

You need to have elite playmakers and an elite Oline for it to work. At all levels. The Niners have that. An offense featuring Christian McCaffery, Deebo Samuel, George Kittle and Trent Williams, would work with you or I playing QB.

@Sdbucs Exactly. More than just another. We need several
So Bijan Robinson, Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, and Tristan Wirfs? Seems like a good start anyway.
Good way to start. Still need a Kittle type. He's key in the passing game over the middle and making plays after the catch. But as great as he is as a pass catcher, he's probably more valuable with his blocking. There are a lot of long developing plays because of all the bootlegs and misdirection plays. Also I forgot Kyle Juszczyk. He's an elite FB but he plays a big role as a blocker and receiver.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by BucsNBills »

Bootz wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:10 pm
BucsNBills wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:04 pm

So Bijan Robinson, Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, and Tristan Wirfs? Seems like a good start anyway.
Good way to start. Still need a Kittle type. He's key in the passing game over the middle and making plays after the catch. But as great as he is as a pass catcher, he's probably more valuable with his blocking. There are a lot of long developing plays because of all the bootlegs and misdirection plays. Also I forgot Kyle Juszczyk. He's an elite FB but he plays a big role as a blocker and receiver.
Yeah I don't think we have a Kittle equivalent. Otton has potential but I don't think he's going to be confused for Kittle any time soon.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by Bootz »

BucsNBills wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:13 pm
Bootz wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:10 pm

Good way to start. Still need a Kittle type. He's key in the passing game over the middle and making plays after the catch. But as great as he is as a pass catcher, he's probably more valuable with his blocking. There are a lot of long developing plays because of all the bootlegs and misdirection plays. Also I forgot Kyle Juszczyk. He's an elite FB but he plays a big role as a blocker and receiver.
Yeah I don't think we have a Kittle equivalent. Otton has potential but I don't think he's going to be confused for Kittle any time soon.
I think Otton can be good enough as a pass catcher. But he's nowhere near the blocker Kittle is, which isn't something to be ashamed of. Not many TEs are, not even Travis Kelce.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by Sdbucs »

Bootz wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:18 pm
BucsNBills wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:13 pm

Yeah I don't think we have a Kittle equivalent. Otton has potential but I don't think he's going to be confused for Kittle any time soon.
I think Otton can be good enough as a pass catcher. But he's nowhere near the blocker Kittle is, which isn't something to be ashamed of. Not many TEs are, not even Travis Kelce.
Michael Mayer at 19? Can he be that guy?

The more I look at the draft the more I want an offensive weapon at 19, followed by DL or OL in 2 and 3.

Evans Godwin Addison is a formidable trio
Evans Godwin White Robinson is 49ers eqsue
Evans Godwin Mayer is very "modern nfl"
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by Grahamburn »

Sdbucs wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:44 pm
Bootz wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:18 pm

I think Otton can be good enough as a pass catcher. But he's nowhere near the blocker Kittle is, which isn't something to be ashamed of. Not many TEs are, not even Travis Kelce.
Michael Mayer at 19? Can he be that guy?

The more I look at the draft the more I want an offensive weapon at 19, followed by DL or OL in 2 and 3
I expect us to draft Smith's replacement very early.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by Doctor »

real bucs fan wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:39 am Basically everyone Arians worked with was a high first if not first overall, or the GOAT.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by real bucs fan »

Sdbucs wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:44 pm
Bootz wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:18 pm

I think Otton can be good enough as a pass catcher. But he's nowhere near the blocker Kittle is, which isn't something to be ashamed of. Not many TEs are, not even Travis Kelce.
Michael Mayer at 19? Can he be that guy?

The more I look at the draft the more I want an offensive weapon at 19, followed by DL or OL in 2 and 3.

Evans Godwin Addison is a formidable trio
Evans Godwin White Robinson is 49ers eqsue
Evans Godwin Mayer is very "modern nfl"
Mayer to me simply lacks the movement skills to be an impact player as a receiver. Not even the best TE in the draft IMO. I honestly would just prefer Otton who looks like a player to me.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by Bootz »

real bucs fan wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:06 pm
Sdbucs wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:44 pm

Michael Mayer at 19? Can he be that guy?

The more I look at the draft the more I want an offensive weapon at 19, followed by DL or OL in 2 and 3.

Evans Godwin Addison is a formidable trio
Evans Godwin White Robinson is 49ers eqsue
Evans Godwin Mayer is very "modern nfl"
Mayer to me simply lacks the movement skills to be an impact player as a receiver. Not even the best TE in the draft IMO. I honestly would just prefer Otton who looks like a player to me.
I think Robinson would make a better fit for this offense. Otton has room to grow but I agree Mayer wouldn't move the needle much.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by Doctor »

Great post Nobody, that's some top notch stuff.

I love the analogy of the machine Cheb, coaches being a sort of Alan Turing vs Arthur Scherbius battle. Machine meeting man when the players on the field do the physical poetry they do. It's why when you see a team on a roll it really is an all-encompassing thing of beauty. Everything is in harmony, man, mind, machine.

I know this won't come as a shock to anyone, but I'm actually hyped for this Canales machine. I absolutely love the staff he's put together, it 100% back his developmental approach to leading an offense. When he speaks of Trasks, it really does sound genuine. I still think we bring in Lock because nothing is free and as Arians would say "you always have to check behind door number 2". But I do think this organization from JL to BA to Todd and now Dave, do sincerely like what they've seen from the kid and haven't seen anything (short of the GOAT wanting another go) to change their minds.

"Riddle me this" twitter heads making stuff up from the ABSENCE of evidence. "OBP hasn't been singing his praises, clearly they no longer believe in him from what they've seen in practice" "He's not second string yet.... clearly that means he's a slow learner". It's ridiculous.

I'm on board. I think we're going to see this staff really squeeze the best out of guys like Gage and White, which seem very well-suited for things Canales wants to do. Guys like Lenny and D Smith likely have "Thank you for your service" flowers coming. I also fully expect to draft a RB, maybe a Bijan if the Gods bless us, but it's a deep RB class. And Seattle forged over here knows you can never have too many.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by bucarican »

I am expecting we won't really know until a QB has been named. He seems like a guy that adjust to what he has.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by Doctor »

To Bootz great disappointment there won't be any jobs handed out on silver platters. This is far from Trasks job to lose. In fact, he's going to have to win it out right. Dave spoke to coaching and developing up and down the roster at once to be a key part of what he's learned. I truly expect a very open QB battle. Trask is going to get his best shot to show his stuff since, ever.

But if we get and turn day Drew Lock into 2022 Geno / franchise guy... would anyone really be mad? That would be such a smash.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by Grahamburn »

bucarican wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:42 pm I am expecting we won't really know until a QB has been named. He seems like a guy that adjust to what he has.
Don’t think you’ll know that until the end of training camp. The offense will be installed well before a starting QB is named.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by mdb1958 »

I think it's imperative that Canales tells Bowles he wont know how good our offense can be until they face a fierce four man rush 8-)


Don't worry boy your gonna see plenty of that..
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

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real bucs fan wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:06 pm
Sdbucs wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 4:44 pm

Michael Mayer at 19? Can he be that guy?

The more I look at the draft the more I want an offensive weapon at 19, followed by DL or OL in 2 and 3.

Evans Godwin Addison is a formidable trio
Evans Godwin White Robinson is 49ers eqsue
Evans Godwin Mayer is very "modern nfl"
Mayer to me simply lacks the movement skills to be an impact player as a receiver. Not even the best TE in the draft IMO. I honestly would just prefer Otton who looks like a player to me.
"Movement skills" are overrated as hell as a TE asset. Guys keep getting overdrafted because they're basically wide receivers who weigh more than 240, and thus have elite "movement skills" for tight ends.

In reality, a tight end who can't block is useless as often as he's useful. A tight end who runs well but can't catch is a decoy. A tight end who isn't physically strong enough to break tackles or win 50/50s in the end zone is limited.

Mayer isn't a fake-ass tight end. He's an actual three down, knock-you-on-your-ass blocking, rips the ball out of the air, fights for the first down old school tight end. I'll take that over the paddy-caking no-blocking 4.55 tight ends who get fantasy geeks all hot and bothered.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by MJW »

Like...Marcedes Lewis runs a 4.9 and dude has been an asset to his teams for 17 years and counting because he blocks like a beast and catches the ball when it's thrown to him. Give me that guy every time.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by Snake »

Yep.

Kelce is also a WR.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by Nobody »

I have no idea about this kid (I haven’t scouted prospects the last two years), but if we’re taking a TE with our 1st rd pick, the odds that it isn’t a “mistake” are pretty low.

This team needs QB, OL, CB. Might need Edge and iDL and ILB (not rd 1) as well.

Let Otton and Kieft play this year. They’re good fits for this 12 personnel heavy, ZBS + shenanigans + PA-boot/slide/cross + layered horizontals + max protect shot offense. Both of them are capable in-line and move-blockers and both can slide under the formation on split-zone kickouts or be Read # 1 RAC on the PA-boot package off that.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by real bucs fan »

MJW wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 3:01 am
real bucs fan wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:06 pm

Mayer to me simply lacks the movement skills to be an impact player as a receiver. Not even the best TE in the draft IMO. I honestly would just prefer Otton who looks like a player to me.
"Movement skills" are overrated as hell as a TE asset. Guys keep getting overdrafted because they're basically wide receivers who weigh more than 240, and thus have elite "movement skills" for tight ends.

In reality, a tight end who can't block is useless as often as he's useful. A tight end who runs well but can't catch is a decoy. A tight end who isn't physically strong enough to break tackles or win 50/50s in the end zone is limited.

Mayer isn't a fake-ass tight end. He's an actual three down, knock-you-on-your-ass blocking, rips the ball out of the air, fights for the first down old school tight end. I'll take that over the paddy-caking no-blocking 4.55 tight ends who get fantasy geeks all hot and bothered.
I’d take that TE too. Just not in the first round.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by Sdbucs »

MJW wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 3:01 am
real bucs fan wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:06 pm

Mayer to me simply lacks the movement skills to be an impact player as a receiver. Not even the best TE in the draft IMO. I honestly would just prefer Otton who looks like a player to me.
"Movement skills" are overrated as hell as a TE asset. Guys keep getting overdrafted because they're basically wide receivers who weigh more than 240, and thus have elite "movement skills" for tight ends.

In reality, a tight end who can't block is useless as often as he's useful. A tight end who runs well but can't catch is a decoy. A tight end who isn't physically strong enough to break tackles or win 50/50s in the end zone is limited.

Mayer isn't a fake-ass tight end. He's an actual three down, knock-you-on-your-ass blocking, rips the ball out of the air, fights for the first down old school tight end. I'll take that over the paddy-caking no-blocking 4.55 tight ends who get fantasy geeks all hot and bothered.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by Cheb »

Sdbucs wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 11:58 am
MJW wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 3:01 am

"Movement skills" are overrated as hell as a TE asset. Guys keep getting overdrafted because they're basically wide receivers who weigh more than 240, and thus have elite "movement skills" for tight ends.

In reality, a tight end who can't block is useless as often as he's useful. A tight end who runs well but can't catch is a decoy. A tight end who isn't physically strong enough to break tackles or win 50/50s in the end zone is limited.

Mayer isn't a fake-ass tight end. He's an actual three down, knock-you-on-your-ass blocking, rips the ball out of the air, fights for the first down old school tight end. I'll take that over the paddy-caking no-blocking 4.55 tight ends who get fantasy geeks all hot and bothered.
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They've been calling Mayer "Baby Gronk" since his freshman year, so the comparisons are there to be had.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by Bootz »

Gronk wasn't even "baby Gronk" when he was at Arizona. So if that's the case, then any team that gets him will be in good hands.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by Grahamburn »

Walloping people with Mayer/Otton and Kieft in a fullback/H-back role sounds kind of fun actually.

I used to love Dungy ball. Dunn and the A-Train wearing them down. You could feel the other team quit.
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Buc2
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by Buc2 »

Grahamburn wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:43 pm Walloping people with Mayer/Otton and Kieft in a fullback/H-back role sounds kind of fun actually.

I used to love Dungy ball. Dunn and the A-Train wearing them down. You could feel the other team quit.
The only issue was that Dungy just never had the offense to take advantage of those defenses when they wore down. If he did, that could have been a multi-SB team.
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MJW
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by MJW »

real bucs fan wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:47 am
MJW wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 3:01 am

"Movement skills" are overrated as hell as a TE asset. Guys keep getting overdrafted because they're basically wide receivers who weigh more than 240, and thus have elite "movement skills" for tight ends.

In reality, a tight end who can't block is useless as often as he's useful. A tight end who runs well but can't catch is a decoy. A tight end who isn't physically strong enough to break tackles or win 50/50s in the end zone is limited.

Mayer isn't a fake-ass tight end. He's an actual three down, knock-you-on-your-ass blocking, rips the ball out of the air, fights for the first down old school tight end. I'll take that over the paddy-caking no-blocking 4.55 tight ends who get fantasy geeks all hot and bothered.
I’d take that TE too. Just not in the first round.
Depends on the draft, the draft pick you have, and how the board falls.

In most cases, if you tell me I can draft a tight end who's projected to never come off the field, make my run game better, improve my pass protection, be a useful 3rd down target and red zone guy, and catch the balls that hit him in the hands...that's a guy I'm going to be happy to add to my team. Am I putting him in the top tier of prospects in an average class? No. But he's probably going to be somewhere in my second tier in an average class, or 3rd tier in a great class.
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MJW
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by MJW »

Bootz wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 3:47 pm Gronk wasn't even "baby Gronk" when he was at Arizona. So if that's the case, then any team that gets him will be in good hands.
Nobody could have predicted the career that would follow Gronk. He was evolutionary. But TBF, the guy was absolutely a first round prospect who fell almost entirely because of chronic back problems.
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Re: Speculating on Canales' Offense

Post by real bucs fan »

Mayer is not Gronk. What made Gronk so special was that he was the strongest non lineman on the field at all times. Tackling him was a nightmare. He was like a 6’6” Alstott with receiver skills and dominating blocking.
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