Time to blow it up

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Snake
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by Snake »

I honestly don’t care what DW45 did in the super bowl run when I’m evaluating this roster. He’s not reproducing it and he’s proven to be a liability that teams exploit every week.
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King Bootz
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by King Bootz »

Snake wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:01 pm I honestly don’t care what DW45 did in the super bowl run when I’m evaluating this roster. He’s not reproducing it and he’s proven to be a liability that teams exploit every week.
Switch the name to JTS and minus the SB run stuff it's actually true. At least DW shows up on the stats sheets and makes plays. JTS has been exploited in the run game since he was filling in for JPP last season.
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Doctor
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by Doctor »

That could be so. We'll see. And hey, if you're right, the tankers will be happy.

But I disagree. I see a lot of that Dungy, Flores, Saleh struggle in finding a competent OC to elevate that side of the ball. Hell even BB hasn't had an offense ranked higher than 15th in the last four years straight.

I think like all these guys he absolutely needs to get his OC hire right. It's easier to hang on longer as a HC if you have a great offense but can't fix the defense rather than the reverse.
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Snake
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by Snake »

JTS needs to make strides next season. He’ll be 24.5 y/o. It’s time to become a difference maker. I won’t disagree there.

During training camp in JTS’s rookie season, The media asked Gronk about him. Gronk said: “yeah he looks real good in tights. Explosive. Let’s see what happens when we get the pads on and start hitting before we make any proclamations” or something to that effect.

He clearly knew what he was talking about…
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mdb1958
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by mdb1958 »

Snake wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:12 pm JTS needs to make strides next season. He’ll be 24.5 y/o. It’s time to become a difference maker. I won’t disagree there.

During training camp in JTS’s rookie season, The media asked Gronk about him. Gronk said: “yeah he looks real good in tights. Explosive. Let’s see what happens when we get the pads on and start hitting before we make any proclamations” or something to that effect.

He clearly knew what he was talking about…
Yeah - Joe Try
Logan Hall doesnt give me I wanna be in the Hall of Fame vibe - it almost seems like he doesnt want to be on our team.

Maybe Licht succumbed to internet confusion. Twice.
BucsNBills
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by BucsNBills »

The entire 2021 draft was a complete waste. Tryon was a huge reach and Licht had business drafting Kyle Trash with Brady coming back and trying to repeat.
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by Sdbucs »

BucsNBills wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:45 pm The entire 2021 draft was a complete waste. Tryon was a huge reach and Licht had business drafting Kyle Trash with Brady coming back and trying to repeat.
We were one play from repeating in 2021.

We had the luxury of taking a developmental player to redshirt under the literal GOAT.

Don’t understand the logic.

A draft pick wasn’t the difference between the blown coverage on Kupp and not. We don’t give up that play we win the SB, without a doubt.

It is just soooo much better if a QB can have some years to adjust to the professional level than throwing them to the wolves as a rookie.

There is nobody we could’ve taken instead of Trask that wins us the game vs the Rams
Miller4Prez64
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by Miller4Prez64 »

Buc2 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:23 pm
Miller4Prez64 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:19 pm

I guess just adding to overall debate of the thread I suppose.
Thanks for clarifying. I'm more in the same boat as Navybuc...no need to blow the entire thing up. There are good pieces here to work with without blowing up the entire pirate ship. QB & OL have to be addressed, though, along with a couple of positions on defense (edge especially). Hell, maybe just OL. Trask could be serviceable behind a good OL. Who knows?
I don’t think we need to blow everything up entirely and get rid of any player with an ounce of value. I just don’t want us sacrificing future cap space and draft picks for a half assed attempt to go all in for this year. Roster needs to get younger and cheaper but that doesn’t necessarily mean everyone gotta go. I would like a few veterans on each side of the ball instead of doing what we did post-Gruden and put the veteran leadership burden on the shoulders of one man.
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by mdb1958 »

We have a whole bunch of small dollar contracts and not much choice with the bigger ones.
Backside
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by Backside »

These takes about what absolutely 100% would or wouldn’t have happened in alternate timelines are something.
bucarican
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by bucarican »

Yawn.... here it goes
mdb1958
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by mdb1958 »

I would assume there are players that have already decided to leave on their own. Some will look at the offers and some we will say we are moving in a different direction.
Snake
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by Snake »

Sdbucs wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:16 pm
BucsNBills wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:45 pm The entire 2021 draft was a complete waste. Tryon was a huge reach and Licht had business drafting Kyle Trash with Brady coming back and trying to repeat.
A draft pick wasn’t the difference between the blown coverage on Kupp
You really can’t say that with a certainty.
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bucarican
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by bucarican »

I don't want any tear down, I want to compete in a weak division. Take your loser attitude elsewhere. Evans, Godwin, Fornette, White, Wirfs, Jenssen, Hansley, Leverett, White, Davis, Winfield, Vita, Shaq are all cores to a solid team. I think Cade is going to be a stud. FA and the draft is going to be key.

Defiantly need an edge on the other side of Shaq, Shoukin is not it.

You guys give up so damn easily. Let the GM cook. The first domino fell, QB. We know the focus.

Edit: LD is a must.

Edit: No one ever thought, Brady, Gronk, AB, Fournette, would end up here the SB year. Let the GM cook!
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by bucarican »

BucsNBills wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:45 pm The entire 2021 draft was a complete waste. Tryon was a huge reach and Licht had business drafting Kyle Trash with Brady coming back and trying to repeat.
OL Robert Hainsey is a stud. Relax
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by Brazen331 »

All you have to do is look at the starting QBs in the NFC South to know there will be no rebuild. So there is nothing to worry about for those of you who accuse others of somehow wanting to surrender. It’s really called wanting to fix the Cap situation.

Let’s try to reload for next year, we can possibly make the playoffs again with a losing record in this division. And you never now what can happen in the playoffs.
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Doctor
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by Doctor »

Snake wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:01 pm I honestly don’t care what DW45 did in the super bowl run when I’m evaluating this roster. He’s not reproducing it and he’s proven to be a liability that teams exploit every week.
That was addressing you're silly bust comment.

Like I said:
Doctor wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:56 pm Say what you will about his flaws or his next contract or whatever, but make no mistake. We don't draft White, we don't have a second Lombardi. Period. Full stop.

You don't want to give him a mega money deal, fine, I can sort of see the reason for it, though IMO it's rather cowardly.
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Brazen331
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by Brazen331 »

Doctor wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:56 pm
MJW wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:59 pm

I've explained it to you personally at least a half-dozen times, and I explained the actual process in specific detail in this very thread. I will, one final time, speak to you as I would a C- high school student:
Was I asking you, princess? No.

We've heard you're silly plans and they've been smacked down by others already.
_MB_ wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:03 pm
You're fired.
Yup.

Snake wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:44 pm You don’t trade Vea, Winfield, Godwin, Otton etc and expect to ever get better.
Thank you!
Do we need to trim the fat and make some cap cuts on some guys? Sure, but that's literally every season. But someone suggested trading Vea, like whaaaat?


Brazen331 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:04 pm Good write up. Wirfs and Winfield are really the only pieces I would consider worthy of building around. Godwin is nice but if we can get some decent draft picks for him I would ship him off. I really want to get rid of Devin White. We picked an ILB #5 overall and he didn’t turn into Ray Lewis. That’s a busted pick pretty much. Let someone else make the mistake of paying him.
Okay, no. Hold up. I'm sorry but I have to call this out Brazen, this is probably the most dogshit take you've ever had.
For one, having the measuring bar being THE Greatest MLB of All Time is pretty stupid. I don't care how high he's picked.

Second, I don't know what the hell you are smoking to think White wasn't insanely instrumental in our playoff run. The entire defense ran through him. Dude balled out and hit that high ceiling every god damn game. Double-digit tackles every time, which would sometimes be 2 or 3 times anyone else on the team. I don't think any other defender ever had a game with more than 7. (Ray Lewis had only one such game during his first chip run btw)

Say what you will about his flaws or his next contract or whatever, but make no mistake. We don't draft White, we don't have a second Lombardi. Period. Full stop.
I’m a DW fan too, actually. If it’s not fair to compare him to Ray Lewis what about other players drafted where he was? Is he closer to Junior Seau and Luke K. or Keith McCants and Broderick Thomas?

He does bring excitement to the game for sure. He will scoop up a fumble on the dead run for a 70 yard TD just as sure as he will completely blow his assignment, allowing a Nick Chubb say, to gather momentum in the open field and take it to the house. You just have to hope those things balance out.

I think we are keeping him but wasn’t he talking about being the highest paid defensive player in the league on his 2nd contract before he played a down? What does he think he is worth? If he wants to be the highest paid interior backer in the league let someone else do that.
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by Brazen331 »

Doctor wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:57 pm
Snake wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:01 pm I honestly don’t care what DW45 did in the super bowl run when I’m evaluating this roster. He’s not reproducing it and he’s proven to be a liability that teams exploit every week.
That was addressing you're silly bust comment.

Like I said:
Doctor wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:56 pm Say what you will about his flaws or his next contract or whatever, but make no mistake. We don't draft White, we don't have a second Lombardi. Period. Full stop.

You don't want to give him a mega money deal, fine, I can sort of see the reason for it, though IMO it's rather cowardly.
I made the bust comment. Bad wording. He is a decent player. Over drafted is a better description.
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by Backside »

I like the 2020 teams chances with Josh Allen wrecking offensive lines. Acting like White was the obvious and only pick that could help us win that Super Bowl is not logical.

He played amazing in those four games. Overall he’s shown a number of flashes but disappointed overall with his consistency.
Last edited by Backside on Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Miller4Prez64
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by Miller4Prez64 »

bucarican wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:33 pm I don't want any tear down, I want to compete in a weak division. Take your loser attitude elsewhere. Evans, Godwin, Fornette, White, Wirfs, Jenssen, Hansley, Leverett, White, Davis, Winfield, Vita, Shaq are all cores to a solid team. I think Cade is going to be a stud. FA and the draft is going to be key.

Defiantly need an edge on the other side of Shaq, Shoukin is not it.

You guys give up so damn easily. Let the GM cook. The first domino fell, QB. We know the focus.

Edit: LD is a must.

Edit: No one ever thought, Brady, Gronk, AB, Fournette, would end up here the SB year. Let the GM cook!
Okay, so how do you keep all those players and make the upgrades you talk about too? That’s the problem we have. We can’t keep all these players while making upgrades at the same time without seriously killing the future with restructuring. If you want to do this you would HAVE to get a veteran QB that would kill most of any cap space we could create before we even think about bringing any starters on defense back, let alone upgrade positions we need help at.

Nobody wants to lose, its just that going crazy this offseason is setting up the team to lose way more in the long run. Plus, it’s still likely we lose even if we do all this stuff. Tom Brady couldn’t manage to win with what we got, it’s not exactly far fetched to think another QB is going to struggle to do better.

Cut the dead weight (Smith, Fournette, Brate, Succop, etc), keep the guys who can contribute and bring leadership and focus on getting the team younger and cheaper this offseason, and we can honestly be in a better shape to upgrade the roster in a year or two. Think of it more like a transition year than straight up tanking.
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King Bootz
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by King Bootz »

Backside wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:17 pm I like the 2020 teams chances with Josh Allen wrecking defensive lines. Acting like White was the obvious and only pick that could help us win that Super Bowl is not logical.

He played amazing in those four games. Overall he’s shown a number of flashes but disappointed overall with his consistency.
What do Josh Allen and Devin White have to do with each other? That's 2 different drafts.
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by Backside »

King Bootz wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:25 pm
Backside wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:17 pm I like the 2020 teams chances with Josh Allen wrecking defensive lines. Acting like White was the obvious and only pick that could help us win that Super Bowl is not logical.

He played amazing in those four games. Overall he’s shown a number of flashes but disappointed overall with his consistency.
What do Josh Allen and Devin White have to do with each other? That's 2 different drafts.
The other Josh Allen

Edit, I messed up describing which line he’d be destroying.
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King Bootz
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by King Bootz »

Backside wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:27 pm
King Bootz wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:25 pm

What do Josh Allen and Devin White have to do with each other? That's 2 different drafts.
The other Josh Allen

Edit, I messed up describing which line he’d be destroying.
Oh got it. Yea, when you said wrecking Dlines, I assumed you mean Buffalo Josh running over guys and making plays with his legs
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by MJW »

Brazen331 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:54 pm And you never now what can happen in the playoffs.
The problem with this logic...well, there's two.

One, you're talking about teams that were better than their record getting to the playoffs and getting hot/healthy and making a run. The Warner Cardinals, the 6th seed Packers, etc.

But you're using it in the context of, "We know the Bucs won't be great, but our division sucks so why not try to win it?" Well guess what? We won't be playing that sucky division in the playoffs. The fact we're in a division with 3 other bad quarterback situations won't mean dick when we're in the playoffs. None of those teams will be there. When we oozed our way in this year, we played a real football team (not from the NFC South) and they kicked the shit out of us, as they should of. Because we sucked. "Anything can happen" just means that sometimes a team will outperform their regular season record. If their regular season play is indicative of who they really are, no, anything cannot happen except getting exposed.

Unless, of course, the point of being a football fan is to see Divisional Champ banners hoisted.

Two, as someone who enjoys risk management exercises and game theory, there's nothing more ridiculous than investing in a highly unlikely outcome and justifying that decision with, "You never know!" If that's seriously the underpinning logic behind making a decision, someone else needs to be making that decision.
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MJW
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by MJW »

Also...history shows that bad divisions (THIS bad, anyway) rarely stay bad for long. The Panthers are really close to a breakthrough. They made a sane hire. They have a better roster than we do at this point. And you're nuts if you think they're going into 2023 with Matt Corral as their QB1. 8 wins is not winning this division next year, even if everything else I said wasn't true.
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by Brazen331 »

MJW wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:32 pm
Brazen331 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:54 pm And you never now what can happen in the playoffs.
The problem with this logic...well, there's two.

One, you're talking about teams that were better than their record getting to the playoffs and getting hot/healthy and making a run. The Warner Cardinals, the 6th seed Packers, etc.

But you're using it in the context of, "We know the Bucs won't be great, but our division sucks so why not try to win it?" Well guess what? We won't be playing that sucky division in the playoffs. The fact we're in a division with 3 other bad quarterback situations won't mean dick when we're in the playoffs. None of those teams will be there. When we oozed our way in this year, we played a real football team (not from the NFC South) and they kicked the shit out of us, as they should of. Because we sucked. "Anything can happen" just means that sometimes a team will outperform their regular season record. If their regular season play is indicative of who they really are, no, anything cannot happen except getting exposed.

Unless, of course, the point of being a football fan is to see Divisional Champ banners hoisted.

Two, as someone who enjoys risk management exercises and game theory, there's nothing more ridiculous than investing in a highly unlikely outcome and justifying that decision with, "You never know!" If that's seriously the underpinning logic behind making a decision, someone else needs to be making that decision.
I’m actually with you on this one and was really failing at sarcasm again.
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by Grahamburn »

What's the definition of "blow it up?" Trade everyone of value that likely wouldn't be here 3 years from now? Evans, Godwin, White, Vea, Davis, Jensen, maybe someone takes on Smith. Don't try to re-sign any of our free agents?

Is that ever any organization's off-season plan?

Maybe we don't go out of our way to sign anyone to long term deals with a bunch of dummy years on the back end now, but I think you try to keep your core. You try to win within the confinements of the cap without sacrificing the future. Then if you get into the season and guys are hurt. Things aren't going all that well. You play some younger guys and start thinking about the draft. But you don't do that in February.
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by _MB_ »

MJW wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:41 pm Also...history shows that bad divisions (THIS bad, anyway) rarely stay bad for long. The Panthers are really close to a breakthrough. They made a sane hire. They have a better roster than we do at this point. And you're nuts if you think they're going into 2023 with Matt Corral as their QB1. 8 wins is not winning this division next year, even if everything else I said wasn't true.
That I agree with.
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by MJW »

Brazen331 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:46 pm
MJW wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:32 pm

The problem with this logic...well, there's two.

One, you're talking about teams that were better than their record getting to the playoffs and getting hot/healthy and making a run. The Warner Cardinals, the 6th seed Packers, etc.

But you're using it in the context of, "We know the Bucs won't be great, but our division sucks so why not try to win it?" Well guess what? We won't be playing that sucky division in the playoffs. The fact we're in a division with 3 other bad quarterback situations won't mean dick when we're in the playoffs. None of those teams will be there. When we oozed our way in this year, we played a real football team (not from the NFC South) and they kicked the shit out of us, as they should of. Because we sucked. "Anything can happen" just means that sometimes a team will outperform their regular season record. If their regular season play is indicative of who they really are, no, anything cannot happen except getting exposed.

Unless, of course, the point of being a football fan is to see Divisional Champ banners hoisted.

Two, as someone who enjoys risk management exercises and game theory, there's nothing more ridiculous than investing in a highly unlikely outcome and justifying that decision with, "You never know!" If that's seriously the underpinning logic behind making a decision, someone else needs to be making that decision.
I’m actually with you on this one and was really failing at sarcasm again.
Probably my fault. Mea culpa. It was not the kind of post I'm used to from you.
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by Miller4Prez64 »

MJW wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:41 pm Also...history shows that bad divisions (THIS bad, anyway) rarely stay bad for long. The Panthers are really close to a breakthrough. They made a sane hire. They have a better roster than we do at this point. And you're nuts if you think they're going into 2023 with Matt Corral as their QB1. 8 wins is not winning this division next year, even if everything else I said wasn't true.
Yup, the NFC East was the joke division two years ago and this year they had a realistic chance of putting all four teams into the playoffs down the stretch.
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by Sdbucs »

Would be content shopping DWhite and replacing him with an early draft pick.

We desperately need a pass rusher that can complement/replace Shaq as well.

Additionally, someone to bolster the O-line.

In terms of our roster outside of QB:

White, Evans, Godwin is a solid core, all performed.
Nobody really excelling in #3 WR role
Otton showed flashes, could be better
O-line was banged up/needs improvement

Vea is good as always. Rest of D-line needs improvement.
White had a bad season. David too, getting old.
Secondary was good when healthy.

IMO our most pressing needs in order are:
Edge
O-line (anywhere)
LB
Slot WR

And that’s exactly how I’d spend our first 4 picks.

Still think we can compete with a competent OC and serviceable QB.
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Doctor
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by Doctor »

I can't see us trading White. I'd be shocked. When the defense is on, he's easily our brightest star. I'll easily take him over the $11M, it's not even close. Then either extend him or hit him with the non-exclusive next year.
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King Bootz
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by King Bootz »

DW has too much raw talent to justify trade him with the rational being he's not good enough. There are numerous players on this defense who are far worse players than he is. You wanna upgrade? Replace JTS. Replace Mike Edwards. Replace Gholston or Hicks. Replace SMB. You don't replace your leading tackler and a guy who was responsible for 25% of the turnovers created by the defense.
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Re: Time to blow it up

Post by Snake »

I think the rationale is half performance and half the anticipated cost of a LB who struggles the way he does in important facets of the game.

If DW45 is willing to sign for $8m a year, sure, keep him. If he wants $16m+...cya.

LVD was making like $12.5m a year to play almost perfect football. (cap inflation, yada yada)

DW45 also has 4000 defensive snaps in the NFL. The rawness is really just who he is as a player.
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