Time to blow it up

[real bucs fan]

No QB. Old and slow team. Cap hell.

Think we give Trask and Bowles the year to prove everyone wrong (they won’t), and go from there.

Was a fun time, but the party’s over.

[Snake]

Trask and Bowles at the helm is blowing it up.

[MJW]

It was time either way. If this makes it obvious to OBP, all the better. But chances are they'll bring in Derek Carr to turn 3 wins into 5.

[King Bootz]

They just scapegoated the OC and a bunch of assistant coaches. No chance they "blow it up". I imagine Licht wants to keep his job.

[Primeminister]

Everyone wants to keep their job so blowing it up won’t happen. This begins with Licht needing to replicate his 2020 draft in terms of hits.

[Sdbucs]

Don’t think we need to blow it up this season

We could maybe trade someone for draft capital if we truly don’t expect to be competitive. But we still have some upside at this point.

It really hinges on QB + OC

[real bucs fan]

They just scapegoated the OC and a bunch of assistant coaches. No chance they "blow it up". I imagine Licht wants to keep his job.

Think they were attempting to lure Brady back. But now I’m not sure we will find a decent replacement with a lame duck situation.

Licht I believe has earned the right to job security.

[King Bootz]

They just scapegoated the OC and a bunch of assistant coaches. No chance they "blow it up". I imagine Licht wants to keep his job.

Think they were attempting to lure Brady back. But now I’m not sure we will find a decent replacement with a lame duck situation.

Licht I believe has earned the right to job security.

And that's why he won't blow it up. His job is secure now, but if he goes about trying to blow up the roster he put together, that's his way of saying what he did wasn't good enough. He loses that job security. Rarely, if ever, does a sitting GM have a fire sale of the roster they created and get to keep their job. We'll retool, make changes here and there. But it won't be the 09 or 14 Bucs, cutting a ton of players to get cap room and rebuild.

[MJW]

Think they were attempting to lure Brady back. But now I’m not sure we will find a decent replacement with a lame duck situation.

Licht I believe has earned the right to job security.

And that's why he won't blow it up. His job is secure now, but if he goes about trying to blow up the roster he put together, that's his way of saying what he did wasn't good enough. He loses that job security. Rarely, if ever, does a sitting GM have a fire sale of the roster they created and get to keep their job. We'll retool, make changes here and there. But it won't be the 09 or 14 Bucs, cutting a ton of players to get cap room and rebuild.

You left out the punchline: that's exactly why we should have fired him already. Because the odds are pretty good he'll be more interested in maintaining his shortening leash than he will looking out for the long-term health of the franchise.

[BucsNBills]

We SHOULD blow up the roster, but we won't. With Brady retiring this is an obvious team that's in a reset and rebuild mode and that's how the Glazers should treat the team.

We need a GM and HC that are planning for the future instead of desperately trying to keep their jobs.

We're going to cobble together a 6-8 win roster and be stuck in purgatory as a result.

Yay!

[King Bootz]

And that's why he won't blow it up. His job is secure now, but if he goes about trying to blow up the roster he put together, that's his way of saying what he did wasn't good enough. He loses that job security. Rarely, if ever, does a sitting GM have a fire sale of the roster they created and get to keep their job. We'll retool, make changes here and there. But it won't be the 09 or 14 Bucs, cutting a ton of players to get cap room and rebuild.

You left out the punchline: that's exactly why we should have fired him already. Because the odds are pretty good he'll be more interested in maintaining his shortening leash than he will looking out for the long-term health of the franchise.

I think we still have a lot of good talented players, most of whom are young and now have winning experience. We'll have to pay this bill though, there is no way around it. But the core of this team is very good. Better than most quite honestly. So if he can build around that, I think it'll give us a shot. Major thing though is we need a QB and to get better in the trenches.

[MJW]

Here's how thing should look in a well-run organization. You ready?

Ownership has the longest-term vision because a) they'll be there longer than everyone else and b) it's about their legacy.

Ownership hires the GM (though the mechanics are sometimes left to outside agencies, for the not-football-inclined owners.) The GM works for, and reports to, the owner. The GM is tasked with determining the best path forward to getting the team to the Superbowl, including when it's not possible in the short-term. The GM should be balancing the coach's immediate needs against the owner's long-term vision.

Ownership and the GM play a role in hiring the coach, but the coach should report to the GM barring special circumstances. The coach's job is short-term thinking: winning every game he can, every season. Ideally the coach and the GM can come to a consensus about how to do that AND how to maintain the longer-term vision, but roster construction should be 50.1% up to the GM.

The Coach should hire three coordinators he has faith in. From that point, he should supply the vision on the ground. He should communicate, delegate, lead, and trust his people, while presenting himself as a resources to his coaches and players.

The coordinators should craft the gameplan based upon the coach's wishes. If the coach can't trust them to do that, he chose his people poorly. That's not to say the coach might not choose to call plays on gameday. But instituting the gameplan should be up to his coaches.

The assistant coaches under the coordinators should serve the coordinators in implementing that gameplan while also addressing technical improvements in the players.

The players should be free to address concerns to any of the coaches, and also trust that all the coaches are on the same page with any issues they might have.

---

Are there variations on this that work? Of course. But all the people we're talking about understand their roles. Are there total exceptions to this that work? Yes, we know that. They're also called exceptions for a reason.

---

Meanwhile, here's OBP right now:

Ownership doesn't seem to care that deeply about this whole NFL thing.

Licht was hired by ownership, but he no longer has the luxury of thinking about the future.

Licht hired Arians...kind of? Does anyone think it was up to Licht?

Arians answered to nobody, but he was also a great coach.

Then he basically appointed his untalented buddy to replace him. I doubt Todd Bowles comes to Licht with issues. He know who got him his job.

Arians is now skulking around the building, with unknown influence on everything, in basically the worst management structure imaginable.

Despite not being a competent head coach, Bowles doesn't trust anyone enough to run the defense, so that's where his focus seems to be.

It seemed a hell of a lot like we did an "offensive head coach/defensive head coach" thing last year...with, again, Arians lurking.

And none of the assistants are competent enough to be promoted.

[MJW]

You left out the punchline: that's exactly why we should have fired him already. Because the odds are pretty good he'll be more interested in maintaining his shortening leash than he will looking out for the long-term health of the franchise.

I think we still have a lot of good talented players, most of whom are young and now have winning experience. We'll have to pay this bill though, there is no way around it. But the core of this team is very good. Better than most quite honestly. So if he can build around that, I think it'll give us a shot. Major thing though is we need a QB and to get better in the trenches.

I keep hearing this, about this core so talented we should try to retool instead of rebuilding. Let's talk about it:

QB - Nobody.
RB - An encouraging Rachaad White, but hardly a guy anyone who will mistake for AD.
WR - We have two excellent wideouts, and nothing behind them.
TE - Nothing I'd call part of a "core."
OL - Wirfs is a stud. Then there are two black holes, an aging center coming off a major injury, and a very good but also 30ish Shaq Mason, who may or may not be back with his cap number.

DL - Vita Vea, who at his size probably won't have the benefit of longevity in this league. Logan Hall, who has done nothing encouraging to date. And nobody.
EDGE - Gimpy, aging Shaq Barrett, now 3 years removed from looking elite. JTS, who has the look of a "B" level pro. Nothing else.
LB - Please don't tell me Devin White, the Jameis Winston of linebackers, is that guy.
CB - We have two excellent corners. One of them may not be back in free agency. And nothing behind them.
S - We have one excellent safety, and I don't think any other safety on the roster under contract.

Plus, our punter is good.

I'm going to bet that if I went through each roster in the league, there'd be at least two dozen with a more encouraging "core" than ours. And they'd almost all have better coaches, better quarterback situations, and more cap room.

Blow it up.

[Miller4Prez64]

I think we still have a lot of good talented players, most of whom are young and now have winning experience. We'll have to pay this bill though, there is no way around it. But the core of this team is very good. Better than most quite honestly. So if he can build around that, I think it'll give us a shot. Major thing though is we need a QB and to get better in the trenches.

I keep hearing this, about this core so talented we should try to retool instead of rebuilding. Let's talk about it:

QB - Nobody.
RB - An encouraging Rachaad White, but hardly a guy anyone who will mistake for AD.
WR - We have two excellent wideouts, and nothing behind them.
TE - Nothing I'd call part of a "core."
OL - Wirfs is a stud. Then there are two black holes, an aging center coming off a major injury, and a very good but also 30ish Shaq Mason, who may or may not be back with his cap number.

DL - Vita Vea, who at his size probably won't have the benefit of longevity in this league. Logan Hall, who has done nothing encouraging to date. And nobody.
EDGE - Gimpy, aging Shaq Barrett, now 3 years removed from looking elite. JTS, who has the look of a "B" level pro. Nothing else.
LB - Please don't tell me Devin White, the Jameis Winston of linebackers, is that guy.
CB - We have two excellent corners. One of them may not be back in free agency. And nothing behind them.
S - We have one excellent safety, and I don't think any other safety on the roster under contract.

Plus, our punter is good.

I'm going to bet that if I went through each roster in the league, there'd be at least two dozen with a more encouraging "core" than ours. And they'd almost all have better coaches, better quarterback situations, and more cap room.

Blow it up.

I wouldn’t say we have two excellent wideouts. Evans looked awful last season outside of the second Carolina game. He’s now about to enter his age 30 season and it’s hard to imagine having better days ahead of him. Godwin looked a lot better at the end of the year, but he also had his first year under 10 ypc. He’s a safety net player that probably won’t take the lid off the defense like he used to. He can still definitely be a good player, but he’s not one of the best in the game or anything.

The drop off in production from these two are a big reason why the offense was bad in 2022.

[King Bootz]

I think we still have a lot of good talented players, most of whom are young and now have winning experience. We'll have to pay this bill though, there is no way around it. But the core of this team is very good. Better than most quite honestly. So if he can build around that, I think it'll give us a shot. Major thing though is we need a QB and to get better in the trenches.

I keep hearing this, about this core so talented we should try to retool instead of rebuilding. Let's talk about it:

QB - Nobody.
RB - An encouraging Rachaad White, but hardly a guy anyone who will mistake for AD.
WR - We have two excellent wideouts, and nothing behind them.
TE - Nothing I'd call part of a "core."
OL - Wirfs is a stud. Then there are two black holes, an aging center coming off a major injury, and a very good but also 30ish Shaq Mason, who may or may not be back with his cap number.

DL - Vita Vea, who at his size probably won't have the benefit of longevity in this league. Logan Hall, who has done nothing encouraging to date. And nobody.
EDGE - Gimpy, aging Shaq Barrett, now 3 years removed from looking elite. JTS, who has the look of a "B" level pro. Nothing else.
LB - Please don't tell me Devin White, the Jameis Winston of linebackers, is that guy.
CB - We have two excellent corners. One of them may not be back in free agency. And nothing behind them.
S - We have one excellent safety, and I don't think any other safety on the roster under contract.

Plus, our punter is good.

I'm going to bet that if I went through each roster in the league, there'd be at least two dozen with a more encouraging "core" than ours. And they'd almost all have better coaches, better quarterback situations, and more cap room.

Blow it up.

I think you're very sour on a lot of good players on this roster. White showed he can be RB1 going forward as a rookie. Otton also had a lot of good moments to build off of. Wirfs, Godwin, Evans, studs. You're understand Vea and his impact. I don't know why you assume he won't be around for long. DW led the team in tackles and is a lot better than fans want to credit him for. Plus he's still super young and getting better. CD3, AWJ are studs in the secondary. That's a solid group you can build around going forward. I do agree Licht needs to do better drafting. But perhaps OBP feels Leftwich and the coaches let go weren't able to tap into players abilities as well as they should've.

[Phantom]

Of course.. Snake is loving this idea.. blow it up

[Brazen331]

Let’s say we have an owner who wants full rebuild. He fires Licht, keeps Bowles for a couple years, but whatever.

So if you were GM, how do we go about this? I’m assuming perhaps we want Brady to process the paperwork now so we absorb the full cap hit this year? Perhaps not?

What players do we have who could bring back assets in trades? Who do we cut outright? What players already on the roster are wanted for the future?

[BucsNBills]

Let’s say we have an owner who wants full rebuild. He fires Licht, keeps Bowles for a couple years, but whatever.

So if you were GM, how do we go about this? I’m assuming perhaps we want Brady to process the paperwork now so we absorb the full cap hit this year? Perhaps not?

What players do we have who could bring back assets in trades? Who do we cut outright? What players already on the roster are wanted for the future?

Cuts:
Smith
Shaq(both of them)
Lenny
Brate
Succup

Trade:
Evans
CD3
Vea
DW
Jensen

You eat the dead cap and don't worry about it. We end up with a decent amount of cap space this year and damn near $200 mil in cap space next.

Extend Wirfs now. Possibly think about extending AWJ as well.

Take the assets we got from the above trades, and dump them all into the offensive side of the ball. Get the oline mostly rebuilt, add weapons, get depth. All so we can be prepared for next year when we draft a QB at #1 overall. Use the remaining draft capital next year to continue filling out the offense. Then, take our massive amount of cap space and get quality starters on the defensive side of the ball.

Walk into 2024 with a young talented QB surrounded by talent with a good Oline and at least a decent defense to work with and hope for the best.

We could easily go from getting the #1 pick to winning the division and making noise in the playoffs in the span of a single season and draft. Only this time it won't be a year to year rental for competitiveness, it could be one built to last.

[_MB_]

Anyone calling to "blow it up" can just go ahead and concede they don't know what to do.

[MJW]

Let’s say we have an owner who wants full rebuild. He fires Licht, keeps Bowles for a couple years, but whatever.

So if you were GM, how do we go about this? I’m assuming perhaps we want Brady to process the paperwork now so we absorb the full cap hit this year? Perhaps not?

What players do we have who could bring back assets in trades? Who do we cut outright? What players already on the roster are wanted for the future?

I wanted to do a new thread, but in short the smart play:

You save legit money cutting Lenny, Brate, Gage, Donovan Fat-Ass, Succop, and Vaughn. Do it.
You save about $10 mil cutting Mason, but I'd rather extend him if possible.
You save over $12 mil by unloading White. I sell him off to the highest bidder. He's not that guy.

You void-year who you HAVE to in order to field a team, but you don't kick the can a nickel more than you have to. You take all the Cap Hits logistically possible NOW.

You trust kids whenever possible - Trask, White, etc. When not, you're looking at bargain basement free agents and you give them one year deals to hold places at get to 53.

You abso-fucking-lutely do not bring in a veteran quarterback who costs you any real money. There's no upside in doing so.

You strongly consider trading back from #19 in the event you're not 100% in love with someone, especially if you can leverage value in future picks by doing so.

You accept that you're going to be total ass in 2023. BUT, you're able to lock up your young guys who deserve it in 2024 - Wirfs, AWJR, etc. You've stockpiled some draft capital, hopefully, and you'll be picking high. The cap skies begin to clear almost immediately.

That's a rough outline.

Or, Plan B...you void year the crap out of everyone, sign whatever short-term veterans you can afford, bring in like the 22nd best quarterback in the league in Derek Carr, put yourself in cap hell again next year, deny your pups valuable reps and development, and win 6 games instead of 3 this year. And 3 the year after when you basically do what I just said anyway.

I know what I'd choose.

[MJW]

Anyone calling to "blow it up" can just go ahead and concede they don't know what to do.

I just wrote what to do. You're free to read it.

[_MB_]

Anyone calling to "blow it up" can just go ahead and concede they don't know what to do.

I just wrote what to do. You're free to read it.

That's what prompted my post

[_MB_]

You accept that you're going to be total ass in 2023.

You're fired.

[The Outsider]

It was time either way. If this makes it obvious to OBP, all the better. But chances are they'll bring in Derek Carr to turn 3 wins into 5.

With a healthy Ryan Jensen and simply better than outright terrible LT play and this team can make a playoff run with Derek Carr.

1. Carr has never been an awful NFL QB. He's not spectacular, but he's definitely in that fringe top-10 group. He's also a hell of a lot more mobile than Brady so he can somewhat mitigate our o-line problems with his legs. Not as a runner but he's pretty good at escaping the pocket.

2. We had a very injury riddled season on both sides of the football. We need to get another pass rusher in the event that Shaq doesn't come back 100% and an upgrade at LT would be nice but overall the team is pretty solid if healthy.

3. Hopefully our new offensive coaching staff is better than what we just had.

[MJW]

You accept that you're going to be total ass in 2023.

You're fired.

Exactly the problem. If Licht/Bowles tried what I just suggested, they'd both be fired. That's why they should have been fired already - they don't have enough rope to do what's best for the franchise. But the exercise is what I'd do. I'd be damn straight with ownership about it before I took the job. If that's not what they want, they shouldn't hire me.

But, like I said...get ready for Derek Carr, an extra meaningless win or two, everyone getting fired anyway, starting 2024 in cap hell again, etc.

[BucsNBills]

I mean, we made a "playoff run" this year. Did anyone really enjoy watching this season unfold? I know I sure didn't.

I think as Bucs fans we need to reassess what we consider successful seasons for the franchise. For years our best hope was to eek our way into the playoffs, but that time has past. Now, we should be hoping leadership makes the tough decisions so we as fans can hopefully feel like a REAL playoff run is possible and maybe even a Lombardi.

Barely winning the NFC South does nothing for me as a fan. I don't care about just making it into the playoffs. We did that this year and it was a terrible experience.

[Navybuc]

I’m torn.
A part of me thinks we should, but man, we have still
Have a lot of Pro Bowlers still on this team..like Wirfs, Jensen, Evans, Godwin, Vea, Barrett, David. If we fix the left side of that OL, we can bring in a guy like Jimmy G and with good protection, the offense will still be pretty good. And we still have a lot of good pieces on D. Brady retiring allows us some some cap space.

What worries me is coaching. I have no confidence in Todd Bowles. I like him as a DC, but I think he’s a god awful HC. And maybe it’s best to just tear it all down, he will suffer and get canned next season and then bring in someone new.

[The Outsider]

I've had much, much worse times during football seasons than this one.

[BucsNBills]

For sure, me as well. Which is why leadership needs to redefine expectations for Bucs seasons. This year should be considered a bad year for us. A failure. Not, "hey, well at least we made the playoffs!".

Going scorched earth while having a very specific plan for the future so losing seasons are a thing of the past is what I want leadership to do. I have no interest in being one and done and considering that good for a Bucs season.

[Snake]

Anyone calling to "blow it up" can just go ahead and concede they don't know what to do.

There’s a difference between not knowing what to do and not being able to do what you want.

Bowles should be gone. If Licht had his druthers, would Bowles be gone? I’m thinking probably. As outsider said, ownership is super involved with coaching hires. Did Licht have much say in that hire and subsequent retention?

Team kinda feels like no man’s land right now. No QB, some really good pieces in a few areas, but overall a bunch of roster turnover coming and cap limitations.

[Cheb]

I wouldn't hold a fire sale. This team has talent still in spades.

We have a young QB in Trask who has shown some moxxy. White is a good running back and Lenny is reliable. We have two excellent receivers and a pair of promising young tight ends. Our offensive line has two Pro Bowlers.

We have one of the best interior defensive linemen in the NFL with Vea. White is the best pass rushing MLB in the league and has potential to be much more. Barrett is great when healthy, and CD3 is one of the more underrated corners in the game.

This roster can win.

Moreover, this front office staff and these coaches and players are all playing for their jobs. Not a single one of them is going to throw the upcoming season, much less before the Superbowl from the prior season is even played.

This ain't Madden. We aren't going to trade every tradeable asset and create a zillion in cap space with dozens of draft picks for the next regime to be put in maximum rebuild. No fucking way.

[BucsNBills]

Anyone calling to "blow it up" can just go ahead and concede they don't know what to do.

There’s a difference between not knowing what to do and not being able to do what you want.

Bowles should be gone. If Licht had his druthers, would Bowles be gone? I’m thinking probably. As outsider said, ownership is super involved with coaching hires. Did Licht have much say in that hire and subsequent retention?

Team kinda feels like no man’s land right now. No QB, some really good pieces in a few areas, but overall a bunch of roster turnover coming and cap limitations.

Nobody had say in Bowles hiring, Arians and his crony scheming made sure of it.

[Miller4Prez64]

It was time either way. If this makes it obvious to OBP, all the better. But chances are they'll bring in Derek Carr to turn 3 wins into 5.

With a healthy Ryan Jensen and simply better than outright terrible LT play and this team can make a playoff run with Derek Carr.

1. Carr has never been an awful NFL QB. He's not spectacular, but he's definitely in that fringe top-10 group. He's also a hell of a lot more mobile than Brady so he can somewhat mitigate our o-line problems with his legs. Not as a runner but he's pretty good at escaping the pocket.

2. We had a very injury riddled season on both sides of the football. We need to get another pass rusher in the event that Shaq doesn't come back 100% and an upgrade at LT would be nice but overall the team is pretty solid if healthy.

3. Hopefully our new offensive coaching staff is better than what we just had.

Derek Carr had a better OL, better WR1, better TE and waaaay better running game than what we had last year, yet he didn’t perform and got benched.

Carr has been in the NFL for 9 years and has lost nearly 60% of his games and has never won a playoff game. All his fault? Of course not, but he wouldn’t exactly be coming into an ideal situation here. He’s also not coming cheap.

If we want to try and win now this season (still maintain that’s a bad idea), then you gotta get someone cheaper so you can fill out the rest of the roster.

[Backside]

Regardless of how the off-season goes I will be fascinated to see what kind team we have next year. And it can’t possibly be worse than this year just because of expectations.

I am fully on board and ready to start watching the draft pick order by November if that is the way the season is going.

[13F11B]

And that's why he won't blow it up. His job is secure now, but if he goes about trying to blow up the roster he put together, that's his way of saying what he did wasn't good enough. He loses that job security. Rarely, if ever, does a sitting GM have a fire sale of the roster they created and get to keep their job. We'll retool, make changes here and there. But it won't be the 09 or 14 Bucs, cutting a ton of players to get cap room and rebuild.

You left out the punchline: that's exactly why we should have fired him already. Because the odds are pretty good he'll be more interested in maintaining his shortening leash than he will looking out for the long-term health of the franchise.

I agree. I have been trying to say that before but perhaps not doing a good job of communicating.

Hire new people and give them four years.