Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Buc2 »

Snake wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 1:42 pm Trask probably has 30 rubber ducks in his bathtub.
Mayfield probably wants to get home to his wife. I can't imagine why.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by kaimaru »

Navybuc wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:58 am
acmillis wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:32 am

If they were both hitting every pass perfectly, people would say..."muhhh...it's just practice" No reason we shouldn't say that when they look bad, too.

That being said, any realistic fan's expectations are about as tall as a grasshopper, so none of this should be surprising.
I get that…but damn… a couple of those were really bad. There’s a video circulating with them and clown music. Brings back memories of ‘76. Just can’t believe these are our two options.
Baker said in his presser that OTA is all about learning the timing of the play and person you're throwing it to. Atleast they aren't throwing ducks like Trask did in prior OTAs.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by MJW »

Grahamburn wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:09 pm
MJW wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:36 pm

"It was all Leftwich's fault" is the new "He just needs more time."
It’s a combination of not having Jensen, Marpet, Gronk, AB, or a healthy Godwin, having a distracted Brady and then Leftwich not being able to adjust to those already crippling factors.

Not to mention flat out ignoring analytics. Refusing to run play action. Calling the most first down runs in neutral situations in the NFL. Refusing to run in the red zone. And just being generally predictable all around.

Cluster-eff.

Sadly for the tankathon crew our offense is likely to be much improved over last year.
Oh, so we have AB and Gronk this year? No.
Is a "focused" Mayfield half as good as a "distracted" Brady? No.

Will our offense be better? Probably? Will it be good? No.

Are we contenders? Fuck no.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by MJW »

Bootz wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 12:07 pm @MJW getting her wish


Clearly, Byron Leftwich has put a curse on our quarterbacks. That's the only explanation. Damn that Leftwich!
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Snake »

Getting her wish? Or just living up to realistic expectations?
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Navybuc »

kaimaru wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 3:44 pm
Navybuc wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:58 am

I get that…but damn… a couple of those were really bad. There’s a video circulating with them and clown music. Brings back memories of ‘76. Just can’t believe these are our two options.
Baker said in his presser that OTA is all about learning the timing of the play and person you're throwing it to. Atleast they aren't throwing ducks like Trask did in prior OTAs.
I’m trying to get hyped up about Baker. But damn I went back and watched some of his games the last couple of years…I can’t believe this is our quarterback competition. If this were the Chiefs, Mayfield and Trask would be dueling it out for water boy. But for us, it’s for the No. 1 qb job.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by MJW »

Snake wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 4:31 pm Getting her wish? Or just living up to realistic expectations?
My wish is to win another Lombardi. That's it. Every take, every argument, every insight, is oriented towards this wish. Not "playing some darn fun football" or "doing our best" or "Winning 8 games and capturing a horrid division." Winning the Lombardi.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by These Are The Days »

I'm of the opinion Lefty was so bad our offense actually regressed
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Doctor »

MJW wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 4:53 pm
Snake wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 4:31 pm Getting her wish? Or just living up to realistic expectations?
My wish is to win another Lombardi. That's it. Every take, every argument, every insight, is oriented towards this wish. Not "playing some darn fun football" or "doing our best" or "Winning 8 games and capturing a horrid division." Winning the Lombardi.
And the best way to do that is with a first overall pick!

Signed,
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Snake »

It’s not Baker Mayfield’s fault that he was the first overall pick. The Browns are a clown show.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by MJW »

Doctor wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 6:34 pm
MJW wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 4:53 pm

My wish is to win another Lombardi. That's it. Every take, every argument, every insight, is oriented towards this wish. Not "playing some darn fun football" or "doing our best" or "Winning 8 games and capturing a horrid division." Winning the Lombardi.
And the best way to do that is with a first overall pick!

Signed,
Baker Mayfield
Yes, having more options is always preferable to having fewer. That's why the #1 overall pick, which gives you the choice of every player in the draft, is worth more than the #200 pick, where there have been 199 choices removed. This should be obvious.

Also, by my quick and very informal count, about 30% of the Superbowls in NFL history have been won by #1 overall pick quarterbacks - Elway, Bradshaw, Aikman, etc. So...yeah.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Grahamburn »

Lol. How does that 30% help your argument? It has been ages since a #1 pick still on his original team has won a Lombardi.

If anything you should be rooting AGAINST picking in the top 5, because those same teams seem to end up there every single year.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Grahamburn »

MJW wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 4:53 pm
Snake wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 4:31 pm Getting her wish? Or just living up to realistic expectations?
My wish is to win another Lombardi. That's it. Every take, every argument, every insight, is oriented towards this wish. Not "playing some darn fun football" or "doing our best" or "Winning 8 games and capturing a horrid division." Winning the Lombardi.
I can get on board with a regime change. To me, that’s more impactful than tanking for an early pick.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Snake »

Grahamburn wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:33 am
MJW wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 4:53 pm

My wish is to win another Lombardi. That's it. Every take, every argument, every insight, is oriented towards this wish. Not "playing some darn fun football" or "doing our best" or "Winning 8 games and capturing a horrid division." Winning the Lombardi.
I can get on board with a regime change. To me, that’s more impactful than tanking for an early pick.
Luckily, both could happen here.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Grahamburn »

Snake wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:10 am
Grahamburn wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:33 am

I can get on board with a regime change. To me, that’s more impactful than tanking for an early pick.
Luckily, both could happen here.
Of course, but as an organizational philosophy, losing on purpose should be pretty far down on the list of goals.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Bootz »

MJW wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:05 am
Doctor wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 6:34 pm

And the best way to do that is with a first overall pick!

Signed,
Baker Mayfield
Yes, having more options is always preferable to having fewer. That's why the #1 overall pick, which gives you the choice of every player in the draft, is worth more than the #200 pick, where there have been 199 choices removed. This should be obvious.

Also, by my quick and very informal count, about 30% of the Superbowls in NFL history have been won by #1 overall pick quarterbacks - Elway, Bradshaw, Aikman, etc. So...yeah.
Your argument for wanting the #1 overall pick is Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman, and John Elway?? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by mdb1958 »

Are the two long snappers in camp having a battle? Err, start your arguments :(
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Selmon Rules »

I'd still rather be competitive year in and year out. Being competitive means you are pretty solid everywhere and need to get that one or two players to get over the hump

Much better than sucking with holes from one end of the roster to the other
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Snake »

Selmon Rules wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:36 pm I'd still rather be competitive year in and year out. Being competitive means you are pretty solid everywhere and need to get that one or two players to get over the hump

Much better than sucking with holes from one end of the roster to the other
I can acknowledge that, but also acknowledge that there will be “lost” years sometimes. When you’re facing a lost year, are you better off “competing” or taking it on the chin as you reshape the roster/org for the future?

See: this year for the Buccaneers. Winning a Super Bowl, or even making a deep playoff run, is astronomically unlikely. The roster is hamstrung with dead cap. The current quarterback competition is going to affect this season. But it’s very possible - if not likely - that neither of these guys will be starting the following season. A handful of meaningful contributors are very likely gone after this season, as well. We all have our opinions on Todd Bowles. But it’s not trending in the right direction.

What is a team to do? I think a top-five pick and a new coach is a better future than 7-10, picking in the mid-first round, settling with Baker or Trask, and keeping Bowles.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Cheb »

Grahamburn wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:24 am Lol. How does that 30% help your argument? It has been ages since a #1 pick still on his original team has won a Lombardi.

If anything you should be rooting AGAINST picking in the top 5, because those same teams seem to end up there every single year.
In the last thirty years, it's only happened four times:

Eric Fisher with the Chiefs
Eli Manning with the Giants
Orlando Pace with the Rams
Drew Bledsoe with the Pats (as a backup to Brady)

In short, over the last 30 years the number 1 overall pick has won a Superbowl for the team that drafted him just 13% of the time. If we discount Bledsoe because he was a backup QB for his Superbowl win, that drops to 10%.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Bootz »

Cheb wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:48 pm
Grahamburn wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:24 am Lol. How does that 30% help your argument? It has been ages since a #1 pick still on his original team has won a Lombardi.

If anything you should be rooting AGAINST picking in the top 5, because those same teams seem to end up there every single year.
In the last thirty years, it's only happened four times:

Eric Fisher with the Chiefs
Eli Manning with the Giants
Orlando Pace with the Rams
Drew Bledsoe with the Pats (as a backup to Brady)

In short, over the last 30 years the number 1 overall pick has won a Superbowl for the team that drafted him just 13% of the time. If we discount Bledsoe because he was a backup QB for his Superbowl win, that drops to 10%.
You forgot Peyton with the Colts. And Eli was drafted by the Chargers
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Cheb »

Bootz wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:03 pm
Cheb wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:48 pm

In the last thirty years, it's only happened four times:

Eric Fisher with the Chiefs
Eli Manning with the Giants
Orlando Pace with the Rams
Drew Bledsoe with the Pats (as a backup to Brady)

In short, over the last 30 years the number 1 overall pick has won a Superbowl for the team that drafted him just 13% of the time. If we discount Bledsoe because he was a backup QB for his Superbowl win, that drops to 10%.
You forgot Peyton with the Colts. And Eli was drafted by the Chargers
So I did! This is what happens when I do research on my phone with multiple tabs open. Mistakes abound.

So drop Eli and add Peyton, percentages are the same.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by MJW »

Bootz wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:03 am
MJW wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:05 am

Yes, having more options is always preferable to having fewer. That's why the #1 overall pick, which gives you the choice of every player in the draft, is worth more than the #200 pick, where there have been 199 choices removed. This should be obvious.

Also, by my quick and very informal count, about 30% of the Superbowls in NFL history have been won by #1 overall pick quarterbacks - Elway, Bradshaw, Aikman, etc. So...yeah.
Your argument for wanting the #1 overall pick is Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman, and John Elway?? :lol: :lol: :lol:
My argument for wanting the #1 pick is that I shouldn't have to argue why it's the most valuable pick because it's fucking obvious.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by MJW »

(BTW, if your GM can't get the right player with the #1 overall pick, guess what? He's even less likely to get the right player with a later pick. Again, for reasons so obvious it would be embarrassing to have to explain them.)
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Grahamburn »

MJW wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:25 pm
Bootz wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:03 am
Your argument for wanting the #1 overall pick is Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman, and John Elway?? :lol: :lol: :lol:
My argument for wanting the #1 pick is that I shouldn't have to argue why it's the most valuable pick because it's fucking obvious.
We understand the value of the #1 pick. The part you're missing, or being obtuse about, is that there are other paths to the ultimate goal of winning championships. Paths that don't include perpetually losing.

That being said, it looks like it should be a great year to be drafting early if that's the way our season plays out.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Grahamburn »

MJW wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:27 pm (BTW, if your GM can't get the right player with the #1 overall pick, guess what? He's even less likely to get the right player with a later pick. Again, for reasons so obvious it would be embarrassing to have to explain them.)
The whiff rate on the #1 pick is actually pretty high when you look at it. Especially by your metrics of the ultimate lombardi goal.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Snake »

Grahamburn wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:21 pm
MJW wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:27 pm (BTW, if your GM can't get the right player with the #1 overall pick, guess what? He's even less likely to get the right player with a later pick. Again, for reasons so obvious it would be embarrassing to have to explain them.)
The whiff rate on the #1 pick is actually pretty high when you look at it. Especially by your metrics of the ultimate lombardi goal.
Teams need to take the best player. Not the player they’re “supposed” to take.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Grahamburn »

Snake wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:22 pm
Grahamburn wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:21 pm

The whiff rate on the #1 pick is actually pretty high when you look at it. Especially by your metrics of the ultimate lombardi goal.
Teams need to take the best player. Not the player they’re “supposed” to take.
Novel idea.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Snake »

Grahamburn wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:34 pm
Snake wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:22 pm

Teams need to take the best player. Not the player they’re “supposed” to take.
Novel idea.
Take someone like Doctor for e.g. He feels GMs are compelled by the zeitgeist to take “consensus” media/draftnik darling prospects. Despite the consensus being wrong all the time.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Nobody »

I feel like there is category error happening here. The draft isn’t a crapshoot. Its not close to a crapshoot (just like Hold ‘Em isn’t about “luck” and “bad beats” as the overwhelming signal of play).

The reality is that Front Offices and NFL Scouting Regimes (a) follow the Pareto Distribution just like everything else in our world and in the universe at large. Consequently, (b) most of these people are average-ish at their job with (c) a vanishingly small number of them being savants.

So, (i) fill your organization with as many of the rare savants as possible, (ii) ensure they have the most influence on the process and its outputs, (iii) don’t have too many cooks in the kitchen, (iv) don’t play politics/nepotism (let your derp regional scout/coach friend have more say on a primary pick because “friend” or whatever).

EDIT - My guess is most of these regimes have waaaaaay too many employees, way over complicate the process, and have too many voices so their process trends toward dilution of focus or incoherence.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by MJW »

Grahamburn wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:19 pm
MJW wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:25 pm

My argument for wanting the #1 pick is that I shouldn't have to argue why it's the most valuable pick because it's fucking obvious.
We understand the value of the #1 pick. The part you're missing, or being obtuse about, is that there are other paths to the ultimate goal of winning championships. Paths that don't include perpetually losing.

That being said, it looks like it should be a great year to be drafting early if that's the way our season plays out.
Yes, there are other paths. And all of them are easier to pursue with more resources.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by MJW »

Grahamburn wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:21 pm
MJW wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:27 pm (BTW, if your GM can't get the right player with the #1 overall pick, guess what? He's even less likely to get the right player with a later pick. Again, for reasons so obvious it would be embarrassing to have to explain them.)
The whiff rate on the #1 pick is actually pretty high when you look at it. Especially by your metrics of the ultimate lombardi goal.
If your GM can't hit with the #1 overall pick, he's even less likely to hit with the #2 overall pick, etc, etc.

It's the same thing as saying, "he couldn't invest $10 and make a profit, but maybe he'll be able to invest $5 and make a profit."
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by kaimaru »

Nobody wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:58 pm I feel like there is category error happening here. The draft isn’t a crapshoot. Its not close to a crapshoot (just like Hold ‘Em isn’t about “luck” and “bad beats” as the overwhelming signal of play).

The reality is that Front Offices and NFL Scouting Regimes (a) follow the Pareto Distribution just like everything else in our world and in the universe at large. Consequently, (b) most of these people are average-ish at their job with (c) a vanishingly small number of them being savants.

So, (i) fill your organization with as many of the rare savants as possible, (ii) ensure they have the most influence on the process and its outputs, (iii) don’t have too many cooks in the kitchen, (iv) don’t play politics/nepotism (let your derp regional scout/coach friend have more say on a primary pick because “friend” or whatever).

EDIT - My guess is most of these regimes have waaaaaay too many employees, way over complicate the process, and have too many voices so their process trends toward dilution of focus or incoherence.
We wouldn't have a Super Bowl if we hadn't done #4 (Arians), just saying...

But to expand on that, it seems Arians had a lot of say in the picks along with Bowles. How do you feel about that?
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by kaimaru »

MJW wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:14 pm
Grahamburn wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:21 pm

The whiff rate on the #1 pick is actually pretty high when you look at it. Especially by your metrics of the ultimate lombardi goal.
If your GM can't hit with the #1 overall pick, he's even less likely to hit with the #2 overall pick, etc, etc.

It's the same thing as saying, "he couldn't invest $10 and make a profit, but maybe he'll be able to invest $5 and make a profit."
You act like evaluating QBs is easy and successful often. You act like it's the GMs fault when maybe it's his scouting department that made the bad call or an owner who wanted this QB over the other. Jerry Jones had to be talked out of drafting Johnny Manzeil and he even admitted he strongly considered ignoring his scout team. How many GMs have a Lombardi on their resume? You act like it's a 50/50 split of good GMs to bad, when it's more like 2% of them, how many more would have if they had a better scouting team or wasn't pressured one way or another. You hear reports that front offices are split on certain QBs. Sometimes a QB is a project like Mahommes was. If the Bears with their horrible offense and offensive line ahd picked Mahommes and forced him out there day one, would he have a Super Bowl ring? Would he? We don't know but without sitting under Andy Reid? You act like it's all in a vacuum. It's the teachers, the head coach, the situation, so much more than the GM. But sure make it about the GM is the problem if the #1 QB pick doesn't pan out. Guess what? RW says that Trask looks great and has a confidence about him. They said he throws low over the middle because that's how TB12 taught him to do. They spent a year just fixing his mechanics. Why force to tank before we find out if he can be the next Mahommes or Rodgers.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Miller4Prez64 »

Selmon Rules wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:36 pm I'd still rather be competitive year in and year out. Being competitive means you are pretty solid everywhere and need to get that one or two players to get over the hump

Much better than sucking with holes from one end of the roster to the other
That’s all fine and all, if you aren’t actively hurting yourself to do so. Continuing to play the dead cap game in an attempt to be competitive is not something I am thrilled about our offseason. Especially since the moves we made probably won’t end up making us competitive either.
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