Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

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Snake
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Snake »

Cheb wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:05 pm
Snake wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:37 pm They also have the smartest GM in the league, a franchise quarterback, a great coach, and were willing to cut Wentz to pivot to said franchise QB.

We have Jason, toilet Bowles, and Trask.

I’m not super concerned though. Vegas has the Bucs as a bottom 3 team in the league and we’re actually TRYING.
In his 26 year career in the front office, Jason Licht has played a part in developing Superbowl teams five times, and he has two rings to show for it. Todd Bowles has three Superbowl rings; one as a player with the Skins, one as a front office guy with the Packers, and one as a coach with the Bucs. And Kyle Trask has shown good qualities but is largely unknown as a pro.

But dude, you don't KNOW how things are going to play out. That's why you play the damned games.

Entering the 2000 season, the New England Patriots had a head coach with a 41-55 record coming off a 5-11 season. Their 100 million dollar franchise quarterback got injured in the second game and was out for the season.

This board would immediately call for the team to fold. Season's over, pack it in, time to tank for Julius Peppers.

But instead of resting all their starters and cleaning out their roster before the trade deadline, Tom Brady and Bill Belichick ascended to beat the heavily-favored St Louis Rams for their first Superbowl win, and the rest as they say is history.

The first step to building a winning culture is to feed the competitive spirit and NOT be okay with losing. Teams that tank build guys like Gerald McCoy, who dance on the sidelines in blowout losses, apologize for clean hits, and give pregame speeches about just being happy to be there.

The Bucs have Pro Bowl talent up and down the roster. I see no reason why we are less likely to win the division than we are to get a top three draft choice.
Clearly, all the Buccaneers need is the unheralded quarterback on the bench to become the best player in history. I think I’m gonna side with Vegas on this one instead of that unlikely event.

And I disagree with you about the state of the roster. It’s strong in a couple places, but it’s weak overall in depth. That’s what happens when 1/3 of the salary cap is dead.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by kaimaru »

MJW wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:01 pm
Doctor wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:03 pm I mean that's why we play the game right? To set up a fun draft process.
You play to win Titles. Not 7 games instead of 5.
Really? So when Roethlisberger had clearly lost his arm and could barely make it over the line of scrimmage for 3 years, why didn't the Steelers tank and kick his ass to the curb. Some owners play for championships, but most only care to field a good enough team to get seats in the stadium. Even then, some like the Ford family, has said it's not about winning at all. So that may be your fan mentality, but it is 100% not the owners mentality outside of Jerry Jones and a few others. Even Robert Kraft cares more about money than championships. Jeffrey Lurie was way under the cap for several years like the last time he tried to build a super team like this one. Maybe he wants to win championships
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by _MB_ »

MJW wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:05 pm
_MB_ wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:15 am
Fear of success.

I used to think it's just fans hedging against getting their hopes up, but the pathology is worse than that.

Now we don't deserve to win without losing first. Or in this instance we have to "pay" for the winning we already had instead of starting a new season fresh.

It's the sports logic of abused children.
Signed, guy who argued Todd Bowles was successful last year because he won the division.

it's the sports logic of losers.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Doctor »

MJW wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:01 pm
Doctor wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:03 pm I mean that's why we play the game right? To set up a fun draft process.
You play to win Titles.
Remind me again, is that done by winning games or losing games?
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by These Are The Days »

Doctor wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:10 pm
MJW wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:01 pm

You play to win Titles.
Remind me again, is that done by winning games or losing games?
That is way too narrowly defined. You can have the greatest team ever assembled and if all your stars are on the wrong side of 30 you'll need to replace them. That always takes a few years. Unless in the very unlikely event you draft half a dozen superstars and few free agents who flawlessly replace these all stars, losing is an inevitable part of the process

Shit like what the 49ers did going from Montana to Young and the Pats having Brady rip out 3 HOF careers is a wet dream that happens once in a lifetime

You're going to lose even if it's to get better again soon
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Cheb »

MJW wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:14 pm
Cheb wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:05 pm

In his 26 year career in the front office, Jason Licht has played a part in developing Superbowl teams five times, and he has two rings to show for it. Todd Bowles has three Superbowl rings; one as a player with the Skins, one as a front office guy with the Packers, and one as a coach with the Bucs. And Kyle Trask has shown good qualities but is largely unknown as a pro.

But dude, you don't KNOW how things are going to play out. That's why you play the damned games.

Entering the 2000 season, the New England Patriots had a head coach with a 41-55 record coming off a 5-11 season. Their 100 million dollar franchise quarterback got injured in the second game and was out for the season.

This board would immediately call for the team to fold. Season's over, pack it in, time to tank for Julius Peppers.

But instead of resting all their starters and cleaning out their roster before the trade deadline, Tom Brady and Bill Belichick ascended to beat the heavily-favored St Louis Rams for their first Superbowl win, and the rest as they say is history.

The first step to building a winning culture is to feed the competitive spirit and NOT be okay with losing. Teams that tank build guys like Gerald McCoy, who dance on the sidelines in blowout losses, apologize for clean hits, and give pregame speeches about just being happy to be there.

The Bucs have Pro Bowl talent up and down the roster. I see no reason why we are less likely to win the division than we are to get a top three draft choice.
Cool. Is Kyle Trask Tom Brady here, or Mayfield? Obviously "three time Superbowl Champ" Todd Bowles is Belichick.

Also, I don't know who needs to hear these, but "incredible, mind-blowing thing that's so rare it'll be talked about in 100 years" is not a plan. Yes, winning the lottery happens. No, the possibility does not mean you should write checks against your 401(K) to buy tickets.

Are you claiming that all top three picks are like Gerald McCoy?

Is the goal to "win the division" as you say? We did that last year. Was last year successful?

There is an argument to be made against leveraging for the future. If someone wants to talk about "winning cultures," I get it. I don't necessarily agree with it - I think it's based on feelings, not logic. But I get it. But this "maybe the team that's clearly not a contender is actually a contender because that happens on extremely rare occasions" thing ain't it.
I'm trying to say that giving up on the season at this juncture is like quitting a poker game before the cards have been dealt or any ante is due. Yes, we don't have as many chips as some other players, because we are paying now for borrowing against the future in prior years. But that doesn't mean that we cannot win the tournament or be competitive in doing so.

And unlike poker, building a winning mentality and culture to ultimately create momentum to sustain competitive drive between seasons is hugely important. Taking your chips and going home, or tanking the season in this case, has an enormous chance of destroying whatever team culture Brady and friends managed to build over the last three seasons. How or why people want to hasten and sprint back to the bygone days of Greg Schiano and Lovie Smith, I do not understand.

Fucks sake, we won the whole damn thing a little over two years ago. We have Pro Bowl talent with playoff experience and Superbowl rings up and down the roster, and folks around here make it sound like we're coming off a bottom-3 finish like the Cardinals or Texans. That's 100% a loser mentality, the very type of mentality that led to Gerald's behavior over time.

And the idea that one should purge the roster the instant one isn't a preseason favorite to win the Lombardi is as unrealistic as it is naive. There's a reason this isn't done.

Shit, this early, preseason odds mean jack shit. You know what team had the second best odds to win the Superbowl just last season? This one.

You play to win the game, MJW. It's one thing to have a defeatist attitude if your squad locks up a top ten pick by midseason. It's entirely another to have that same attitude in early June.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Snake »

“Fucks sake, we won the whole damn thing a little over two years ago.”

That might as well be 50 years ago. Now the team is minus the GOAT, a downgrade at HC, a roster built with one hand tied behind its back, aging contributors…

But Trashker are here to start this momentum back up I guess!
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by These Are The Days »

Snake wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:43 pm “Fucks sake, we won the whole damn thing a little over two years ago.”

That might as well be 50 years ago. Now the team is minus the GOAT, a downgrade at HC, a roster built with one hand tied behind its back, aging contributors…

But Trashker are here to start this momentum back up I guess!
You're missing the point. It's not impossible we won't have a good season and possibly contend. It just feels unlikely because for 3 years we had something else to look forward to other than cracking jokes about how Winston just needs more time. We honestly aren't any worse than any of those years and we're acting like 3-14 is a bygone conclusion


There's still a lot to like about this team but nobody wants to
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Doctor »

Here's a fun exercise, name well-run teams with winning cultures, then tell me what years they tanked.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by mdb1958 »

Win the NFCS and why argue.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by _MB_ »

mdb1958 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:39 am Win the NFCS and why argue.
Exactly.

Best defense in the division can win the division.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Bootz »

_MB_ wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:45 am
mdb1958 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:39 am Win the NFCS and why argue.
Exactly.

Best defense in the division can win the division.
Looking at the landscape, I'd say we have either the 1st or 2nd best defense in the division. Carolina was somewhat overrated. Atlanta doesn't really have a defense. New Orleans is one of the best in football but so is this defense. We need to get back to stopping the run the way we're capable of and getting to the QB. I think Kancey and a returning Shaq Barrett help that.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by These Are The Days »

Doctor wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:37 pm Here's a fun exercise, name well-run teams with winning cultures, then tell me what years they tanked.
The Pittsburgh Penguins blatantly tanked in 1983 and the start of the 2000's. And as a consequence they have had 40 years of nearly uninterrupted generational (once in a lifetime) talent and 5 championships between Mario Lemieux and Sidney Crosby


Edit: I can't count for the life of me
Last edited by These Are The Days on Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by _MB_ »

Bootz wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:06 am
_MB_ wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:45 am
Exactly.

Best defense in the division can win the division.
Looking at the landscape, I'd say we have either the 1st or 2nd best defense in the division. Carolina was somewhat overrated. Atlanta doesn't really have a defense. New Orleans is one of the best in football but so is this defense. We need to get back to stopping the run the way we're capable of and getting to the QB. I think Kancey and a returning Shaq Barrett help that.
It'll be between us and New Orleans unless Carolina struck gold.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by _MB_ »

Bootz wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:06 am
_MB_ wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:45 am
Exactly.

Best defense in the division can win the division.
Looking at the landscape, I'd say we have either the 1st or 2nd best defense in the division. Carolina was somewhat overrated. Atlanta doesn't really have a defense. New Orleans is one of the best in football but so is this defense. We need to get back to stopping the run the way we're capable of and getting to the QB. I think Kancey and a returning Shaq Barrett help that.
It'll be between us and New Orleans unless Carolina struck gold.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by mdb1958 »

It would be refreshing to have a new group of contributors, be it short or long term.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Deja Entendu »

These Are The Days wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:31 am
Doctor wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:37 pm Here's a fun exercise, name well-run teams with winning cultures, then tell me what years they tanked.
The Pittsburgh Penguins blatantly tanked in 1983 and the start of the 2000's. And as a consequence have had 43 years of nearly uninterrupted generational (once in a lifetime) talent and 5 championships between Mario Lemieux and Sidney Crosby
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Buc2 »

Deja Entendu wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:30 am I’d love to see Vita on the ice.
I'm thinking it would look something like this...

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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Selmon Rules »

Deja Entendu wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:30 am
These Are The Days wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:31 am

The Pittsburgh Penguins blatantly tanked in 1983 and the start of the 2000's. And as a consequence have had 43 years of nearly uninterrupted generational (once in a lifetime) talent and 5 championships between Mario Lemieux and Sidney Crosby
I’d love to see Vita on the ice.
Give him some bigger pads and put him in goal
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by MJW »

Doctor wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:37 pm Here's a fun exercise, name well-run teams with winning cultures, then tell me what years they tanked.
And...what are you considering tanking again? (HINT: If you say "trying to lose" you're not talking about what I'm talking about.)
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by MJW »

_MB_ wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:45 am
mdb1958 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:39 am Win the NFCS and why argue.
Exactly.

Best defense in the division can win the division.
Was last year a success? Will you look back on it fondly?
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by uscbucsfan1 »

MJW wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:13 pm
_MB_ wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:45 am
Exactly.

Best defense in the division can win the division.
Was last year a success? Will you look back on it fondly?
If we had the exact same year, same deficiencies, same record, same playoff blowout this year it would be a success IMO. Last year was to an extent...better than we've experienced for years, but it was with a last ditch effort and the offense was really painful to watch with the GOAT. If we did the same this year with Trask and the void space, it would be a massive building block to the future. There'd still be questions if that type of QB play/running game/blocking is even something to build on or will we always just be mediocre, but it would be different with a young QB than a clearly not focused, one foot out the door Brady. No?
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by _MB_ »

MJW wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:13 pm
_MB_ wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:45 am
Exactly.

Best defense in the division can win the division.
Was last year a success? Will you look back on it fondly?
It was not a complete success, but it was a division title with Tom Brady as quarterback. Of course I'll remember it fondly.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by MJW »

Gonna post some version of this definition yet again:

When I SAY TANK, I MEAN -

1) Avoiding, at all costs, future salary commitments for players who aren't part of your long-term. 3rd Contract guys. Guys at a risk of declining. You get the idea. If you have to sign "spackle"* guys, make it one-year deals.

2) Avoiding balloon years later on in your re-signs. We all know those contracts. 2022: $6 Mil, 2023: $6 Mil, 2024: $36 Mil. Take your cap L's NOW. Frontload everything possible.

3) By the same token, taking the cap hits on guys you'd rather cut. Move on now. What the Cardinals did with D-Hop basically.

4) Remember those spackle guys from #1? Avoid signing them when possible. Give those reps to the pups unless it's clear the pup won't turn into anything. Reps are valuable; invest them.

5) Not keeping a coach or a GM already on the hot seat. Why would they be thinking about the long-term health of the team?

6) Exploiting value by trading this year's draft picks for betters ones next year. If you're more concerned about two years than next year, why the hell wouldn't you swap this year's 3rd and 5th for next year's first?

7) Not altering draft strategy for immediate help. Pretty straightforward.

8) Drafting the lines, which I guess is a borderline entry, but it's the best sign of a good rebuild.


If you don't have a problem with that, you don't have a problem with what I want. Of course, I've explained it to Doctor 10 times already and he still says "rookie savior!"
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Selmon Rules »

I just want to be competitive. Not "fake competitive" whatever that means. I want to have as few holes as possible in the roster that need help to put us over the top.

I don't want to go back to half of the roster being a dumpster fire
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Babeinbucland »

Cheb wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:23 pm
MJW wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:14 pm

Cool. Is Kyle Trask Tom Brady here, or Mayfield? Obviously "three time Superbowl Champ" Todd Bowles is Belichick.

Also, I don't know who needs to hear these, but "incredible, mind-blowing thing that's so rare it'll be talked about in 100 years" is not a plan. Yes, winning the lottery happens. No, the possibility does not mean you should write checks against your 401(K) to buy tickets.

Are you claiming that all top three picks are like Gerald McCoy?

Is the goal to "win the division" as you say? We did that last year. Was last year successful?

There is an argument to be made against leveraging for the future. If someone wants to talk about "winning cultures," I get it. I don't necessarily agree with it - I think it's based on feelings, not logic. But I get it. But this "maybe the team that's clearly not a contender is actually a contender because that happens on extremely rare occasions" thing ain't it.
I'm trying to say that giving up on the season at this juncture is like quitting a poker game before the cards have been dealt or any ante is due. Yes, we don't have as many chips as some other players, because we are paying now for borrowing against the future in prior years. But that doesn't mean that we cannot win the tournament or be competitive in doing so.

And unlike poker, building a winning mentality and culture to ultimately create momentum to sustain competitive drive between seasons is hugely important. Taking your chips and going home, or tanking the season in this case, has an enormous chance of destroying whatever team culture Brady and friends managed to build over the last three seasons. How or why people want to hasten and sprint back to the bygone days of Greg Schiano and Lovie Smith, I do not understand.

Fucks sake, we won the whole damn thing a little over two years ago. We have Pro Bowl talent with playoff experience and Superbowl rings up and down the roster, and folks around here make it sound like we're coming off a bottom-3 finish like the Cardinals or Texans. That's 100% a loser mentality, the very type of mentality that led to Gerald's behavior over time.

And the idea that one should purge the roster the instant one isn't a preseason favorite to win the Lombardi is as unrealistic as it is naive. There's a reason this isn't done.

Shit, this early, preseason odds mean jack shit. You know what team had the second best odds to win the Superbowl just last season? This one.

You play to win the game, MJW. It's one thing to have a defeatist attitude if your squad locks up a top ten pick by midseason. It's entirely another to have that same attitude in early June.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Grahamburn »

I guess they ARE tanking then. Pretty much. They signed no priority free agents other than homegrown players. Cut the dead weight. Didn’t draft for need. Drafted lines.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by BucsNBills »

What number will he wear since Evans obviously has 13 on lockdown?

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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Bootz »

BucsNBills wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:40 am What number will he wear since Evans obviously has 13 on lockdown?

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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Grahamburn »

The 6-foot-5, 345-pounder also admitted that he’s afraid of failing at left tackle, and that the thought of him being a disappointment drives him. Wirfs also shared that head coach Todd Bowles told him the day after the season ended that he would be moving to left tackle.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Buc2 »

Babeinbucland wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:51 pm
Cheb wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:23 pm

I'm trying to say that giving up on the season at this juncture is like quitting a poker game before the cards have been dealt or any ante is due. Yes, we don't have as many chips as some other players, because we are paying now for borrowing against the future in prior years. But that doesn't mean that we cannot win the tournament or be competitive in doing so.

And unlike poker, building a winning mentality and culture to ultimately create momentum to sustain competitive drive between seasons is hugely important. Taking your chips and going home, or tanking the season in this case, has an enormous chance of destroying whatever team culture Brady and friends managed to build over the last three seasons. How or why people want to hasten and sprint back to the bygone days of Greg Schiano and Lovie Smith, I do not understand.

Fucks sake, we won the whole damn thing a little over two years ago. We have Pro Bowl talent with playoff experience and Superbowl rings up and down the roster, and folks around here make it sound like we're coming off a bottom-3 finish like the Cardinals or Texans. That's 100% a loser mentality, the very type of mentality that led to Gerald's behavior over time.

And the idea that one should purge the roster the instant one isn't a preseason favorite to win the Lombardi is as unrealistic as it is naive. There's a reason this isn't done.

Shit, this early, preseason odds mean jack shit. You know what team had the second best odds to win the Superbowl just last season? This one.

You play to win the game, MJW. It's one thing to have a defeatist attitude if your squad locks up a top ten pick by midseason. It's entirely another to have that same attitude in early June.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Bootz »

Grahamburn wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:45 am
The 6-foot-5, 345-pounder also admitted that he’s afraid of failing at left tackle, and that the thought of him being a disappointment drives him. Wirfs also shared that head coach Todd Bowles told him the day after the season ended that he would be moving to left tackle.
At what point was Tristan Wirfs ever 345 pounds?
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Grahamburn »

Bootz wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:14 am
Grahamburn wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:45 am
At what point was Tristan Wirfs ever 345 pounds?
Ha. Whoops.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by These Are The Days »

Bootz wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:41 am
BucsNBills wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:40 am What number will he wear since Evans obviously has 13 on lockdown?

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