Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

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King Bootz
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by King Bootz »

Primeminister wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:14 pm
King Bootz wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:07 pm

“Resetting the cap” is kind of an unwritten fallacy. It doesn’t happen. Well it happens for teams who are bad enough or they don’t have a QB or marquee players. Look at the 2 teams in the SB. They’ve both won the SB within the last 6 years. Neither “reset the cap” to get back to stay in contention. They drafted well, make good on FA signings, hit on the positions you need to, and continued to retool the roster so they could manage their cap well and impending FA departures.

The Bucs have never found that formula. We always hold on to players way too long and then scramble to find their replacement. Or we hold on to players who don’t really fit a long term winning strategy. We never have good depth except at positions like WR, RB, QB and as such we don’t get great value out of younger players on the roster.

We’re either too old as a team or too young. There’s hardly ever a healthy balance between the 2.
This only works if you hit on the QB. Until that point I think that Cheb and Naismith are correct.
Which is what I said. I know you can read.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Primeminister »

King Bootz wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:37 pm
Primeminister wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:14 pm

This only works if you hit on the QB. Until that point I think that Cheb and Naismith are correct.
Which is what I said. I know you can read.
Goddammit I missed that. We are in agreement. The problem at hand is both fans and OBP know Trask isn’t it. I’m not sure what the answer at QB could be with the 19th pick and a new OC. I assume the new OC will have considerable input on the QB decision whether it’s Trask, 2023 Draft or trade/FA QB. Now matter what I do not believe Bowles will go into next season trying to tank for the next great rookie QB.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Cheb »

King Bootz wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:07 pm
Cheb wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:55 am

He ain't wrong though.

The smarter long-term solution would be to do what Naismith advocated, or at least some version of it. Reset the cap, don't mortgage future resources, and see how well Bowles can coach them up. Only problem is that Bowles and/or Licht may not be Buc employees this time next year if they do that, so I doubt they'll walk down that road.
“Resetting the cap” is kind of an unwritten fallacy. It doesn’t happen. Well it happens for teams who are bad enough or they don’t have a QB or marquee players. Look at the 2 teams in the SB. They’ve both won the SB within the last 6 years. Neither “reset the cap” to get back to stay in contention. They drafted well, make good on FA signings, hit on the positions you need to, and continued to retool the roster so they could manage their cap well and impending FA departures.

The Bucs have never found that formula. We always hold on to players way too long and then scramble to find their replacement. Or we hold on to players who don’t really fit a long term winning strategy. We never have good depth except at positions like WR, RB, QB and as such we don’t get great value out of younger players on the roster.

We’re either too old as a team or too young. There’s hardly ever a healthy balance between the 2.
To your point, neither the Eagles or Chiefs to my knowledge have done cap shenanigans to stay in contention, as we have done the last few years, so they haven't NEEDED to reset the cap because they never broke it in the first place. Both teams kept their cores intact as much as possible and retooled the bottom of their rosters around that core as much as possible.

Should Tampa have done that, in retrospect maybe or maybe not, but most people can agree that it was worth the cost.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

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I'm waiting for the day Mahomes loses Kelce
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Naismith »

Primeminister wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:52 pm The problem at hand is both fans and OBP know Trask isn’t it. I’m not sure what the answer at QB could be with the 19th pick and a new OC. I assume the new OC will have considerable input on the QB decision whether it’s Trask, 2023 Draft or trade/FA QB. Now matter what I do not believe Bowles will go into next season trying to tank for the next great rookie QB.
I doubt Trask is a good QB but I don't think any other option is worth pursuing. What is this team with Carr? Rodgers? Jimmy G? A worse version of last year's team?

My two favorite players are Lavonte David and Mike Evans, but I'd move on from both of them this offseason. I'd want to get some draft assets for Evans and I wouldn't want to pay Lavonte at his age, for this team, and hope to get a fifth round comp for him after next season. I doubt there's a trade market for Barrett but I'd look into that as well.

I'm not suggesting it gets torn down to the studs, but by the time this team is ready to win another Super Bowl, I don't think any of those guys will be major contributors, and I'd rather have ammo to get cheap contracts or make a move for a rookie QB.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

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mdb1958 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:24 pm I'm waiting for the day Mahomes loses Kelce
That's what they said about Tyreek.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Naismith »

Cheb wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:17 pm To your point, neither the Eagles or Chiefs to my knowledge have done cap shenanigans to stay in contention, as we have done the last few years, so they haven't NEEDED to reset the cap because they never broke it in the first place. Both teams kept their cores intact as much as possible and retooled the bottom of their rosters around that core as much as possible.

Should Tampa have done that, in retrospect maybe or maybe not, but most people can agree that it was worth the cost.
The Eagles are a well run organization that has the most valuable thing in football, a QB playing at a high level on a rookie contract.

The Chiefs have the best player in football. Their entire squad of skill position players costs less against the cap than Tyreek, but they can do it because they have a unicorn QB that was touched by the hand of god. If Mahomes was on a rookie contract, Tyreek would likely still be there. So yeah, when you pay your QB a lot, you have to make some tough choices.

I don't think Brady was good enough during his Bucs run to do what Mahomes is doing and also, you're not trying to stay competitive for a big window, so I think it makes sense to sell out to make a run. I love that Brady came to Tampa Bay and won another Super Bowl, but the bill is due.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by King Bootz »

Cheb wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:17 pm
King Bootz wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:07 pm

“Resetting the cap” is kind of an unwritten fallacy. It doesn’t happen. Well it happens for teams who are bad enough or they don’t have a QB or marquee players. Look at the 2 teams in the SB. They’ve both won the SB within the last 6 years. Neither “reset the cap” to get back to stay in contention. They drafted well, make good on FA signings, hit on the positions you need to, and continued to retool the roster so they could manage their cap well and impending FA departures.

The Bucs have never found that formula. We always hold on to players way too long and then scramble to find their replacement. Or we hold on to players who don’t really fit a long term winning strategy. We never have good depth except at positions like WR, RB, QB and as such we don’t get great value out of younger players on the roster.

We’re either too old as a team or too young. There’s hardly ever a healthy balance between the 2.
To your point, neither the Eagles or Chiefs to my knowledge have done cap shenanigans to stay in contention, as we have done the last few years, so they haven't NEEDED to reset the cap because they never broke it in the first place. Both teams kept their cores intact as much as possible and retooled the bottom of their rosters around that core as much as possible.

Should Tampa have done that, in retrospect maybe or maybe not, but most people can agree that it was worth the cost.

Oh they have. Both teams. The Chiefs have restructured Mahomes massive deal every year since he signed it. Not just him either. Kelce, Jones, Clark, even Thuney who was just signed in 2021 has already undergone a significant contract restructuring.

Philly on the other hand utilizes voidable years almost as frequently as any team in football. Javon Hargreaves, Jason Kelce, Kyzir White, James Bradberry, Brandon Graham and a few others are all on their books for 2023 because of voided years.

But neither team will be looking to reset in 2023. They’ll retool like good teams do. They have their QBs. So they can continue playing with the cap so they remain contenders.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

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_MB_ wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:30 pm
mdb1958 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:24 pm I'm waiting for the day Mahomes loses Kelce
That's what they said about Tyreek.
Didnt comment about Tyreek. Kelce is the player that would bring Mahomes down a notch.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Puss in Boots »

mdb1958 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:42 pm
_MB_ wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:30 pm
That's what they said about Tyreek.
Didnt comment about Tyreek. Kelce is the player that would bring Mahomes down a notch.
THAT'S WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT TYREEK.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Doctor »

What the heck does "reset the cap" mean? Is there a button?

Cutting dead weight, signing smart deals, and extending/restructuring your studs is something you do every offseason.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by King Bootz »

Doctor wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:49 pm What the heck does "reset the cap" mean? Is there a button?

Cutting dead weight, signing smart deals, and extending/restructuring your studs is something you do every offseason.
I think in this context Cheb was speaking about what we did circa 2009-2011. No excuse dead cap space, no restructured deals, no voidable years, most everyone on their rookie deal or a low end type deal. And no one with any signing bonuses.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by King Bootz »

Puss in Boots wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:58 pm
mdb1958 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:42 pm

Didnt comment about Tyreek. Kelce is the player that would bring Mahomes down a notch.
THAT'S WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT TYREEK.
Yep. That’s why Josh Allen was the new crown prince of the 2022 NFL offseason. This was supposed to be the year Mahomes and the Chiefs took a major step back because those who were eager to invalidate Mahomes attributed all of his success to Tyreek. All he did was have the #1 offense in football, win another MVP and got his team back to the SB. I’m sure they’ll try to do the same when Kelce is gone in the next year or 2.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

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It means consolidating as much pain into one season as possible. If you’re already well over the cap before filling various holes and re-signing contributors, the idea of doing this becomes more palatable.

Cutting dead weight and eating all that dead cap in one season. Including guys who may be bad personality fits or upside down in their performance/cost ratio. Getting further away from the void (dead cap) years. In theory. Plus whatever void year money that is eating space that would otherwise be going to contributing players. Being bad and the benefits of picking higher…yada yada
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

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Snake wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:43 pm It means consolidating as much pain into one season as possible. If you’re already well over the cap before filling various holes and re-signing contributors, the idea of doing this becomes more palatable.

Cutting dead weight and eating all that dead cap in one season. Including guys who may be bad personality fits or upside down in their performance/cost ratio. Getting further away from the void (dead cap) years. In theory. Plus whatever void year money that is eating space that would otherwise be going to contributing players. Being bad and the benefits of picking higher…yada yada
That usually equals voluntarily throwing away a full season. There’s a reason this doesn’t happen with much success in the NFL. You piss 1 year away on purpose you had better hit on every move the next year and have a quick turnaround or more often than not you’re getting fired.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

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King Bootz wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:52 pm
Snake wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:43 pm It means consolidating as much pain into one season as possible. If you’re already well over the cap before filling various holes and re-signing contributors, the idea of doing this becomes more palatable.

Cutting dead weight and eating all that dead cap in one season. Including guys who may be bad personality fits or upside down in their performance/cost ratio. Getting further away from the void (dead cap) years. In theory. Plus whatever void year money that is eating space that would otherwise be going to contributing players. Being bad and the benefits of picking higher…yada yada
That usually equals voluntarily throwing away a full season. There’s a reason this doesn’t happen with much success in the NFL. You piss 1 year away on purpose you had better hit on every move the next year and have a quick turnaround or more often than not you’re getting fired.
I agree, it's fairly rare. But your definition is pretty harsh and binary.

In our case, the difference between "tanking" and "going all in" is a) avoiding overpaying for a veteran quarterback and b) avoiding the creation of future cap issues.

That's honestly it. Don't overpay for some mediocrity like Derek Carr because he's a name brand. Don't kick the cap can harder than you have to in order to add aging talent for 2023.

We don't do those things, we're "tanking." We're also behaving like a well-run, sane franchise.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by BucsNBills »

So we can't talk, trade players, reset and build for the future.

But we also can't push the cap down and build as strong as roster as possible for 2023 because... I guess our 2026 cap space might be effected.

Can't sign any veteran QBs that could help us at least win the division.

Can't play Trask because we all know he's Dogshit and Bowles/Licht can't afford to watch the team spiral anymore than it has.

And I'm assuming nobody wants to be aggressive for any of the QBs in this years draft.

So I guess sign a cheap vet like Baker Mayfield, push minimal cap, don't spend too much to improve the roster, hope to get a couple decent starters from the draft, and then hope that's a competitive team that's going to take on the 9ers and the Eagles?
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by King Bootz »

MJW wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:32 pm
King Bootz wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:52 pm

That usually equals voluntarily throwing away a full season. There’s a reason this doesn’t happen with much success in the NFL. You piss 1 year away on purpose you had better hit on every move the next year and have a quick turnaround or more often than not you’re getting fired.
I agree, it's fairly rare. But your definition is pretty harsh and binary.

In our case, the difference between "tanking" and "going all in" is a) avoiding overpaying for a veteran quarterback and b) avoiding the creation of future cap issues.

That's honestly it. Don't overpay for some mediocrity like Derek Carr because he's a name brand. Don't kick the cap can harder than you have to in order to add aging talent for 2023.

We don't do those things, we're "tanking." We're also behaving like a well-run, sane franchise.
To borrow from Samuel L Jackson, I’m taking the NFL as it is, not as I’d like it to be. Things aren’t as black and white as you make them out to be. There is a middle class in the NFL. Teams aren’t either “All-In” or “Tanking”. We can add to our cap(relatively speaking), shed some fat, get a veteran QB, create some youth, and that doesn’t mean we have to be either a top 2 team or in contention for the #1 pick like you want us to be. Those “all-in” teams? They rarely stay in contention for long. Our window was 3 years, 2 if we’re being honest. The Rams cashed in on their only year.

I’d love to borrow from the teams that are in the SB this year but that means we have to do 1 thing: find a QB. Do that and who knows how quickly this thing can get turned around. It’s not all about slashing salary and talent and starting over. We need a QB.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

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QB or bust. Yep. I 100% agree. But…I don’t see one riding over the hill to come save us atm. For sure not in time for the 2023 season. So the question remains, what should or what will this team do for 2023 to stay as competitive as possible until that savior can crest the hill and make his way into Buccaneer camp?
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

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Buc2 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:00 pm QB or bust. Yep. I 100% agree. But…I don’t see one riding over the hill to come save us atm. For sure not in time for the 2023 season. So the question remains, what should or what will this team do for 2023 to stay as competitive as possible until that savior can crest the hill and make his way into Buccaneer camp?
It doesn’t have to be a savior for 2023. Doesn’t even have to be a savior. Just someone we can hope to build around into the future.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by BucsNBills »

King Bootz wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:33 pm
Buc2 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:00 pm QB or bust. Yep. I 100% agree. But…I don’t see one riding over the hill to come save us atm. For sure not in time for the 2023 season. So the question remains, what should or what will this team do for 2023 to stay as competitive as possible until that savior can crest the hill and make his way into Buccaneer camp?
It doesn’t have to be a savior for 2023. Doesn’t even have to be a savior. Just someone we can hope to build around into the future.
Got any suggestions?
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by mdb1958 »

BucsNBills wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:37 pm
King Bootz wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:33 pm

It doesn’t have to be a savior for 2023. Doesn’t even have to be a savior. Just someone we can hope to build around into the future.
Got any suggestions?

Start a lot of rookies, they try hard, they learn, and they lose. No tanking when it's on the job training.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by mdb1958 »

With yawls mindset of the o-line, you can't create any good news.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

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King Bootz wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:33 pm
Buc2 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:00 pm QB or bust. Yep. I 100% agree. But…I don’t see one riding over the hill to come save us atm. For sure not in time for the 2023 season. So the question remains, what should or what will this team do for 2023 to stay as competitive as possible until that savior can crest the hill and make his way into Buccaneer camp?
It doesn’t have to be a savior for 2023. Doesn’t even have to be a savior. Just someone we can hope to build around into the future.

You mean our very own Brock Purdy surprise. You willin to make the conditions right for him or does he stare at his feet on the sideline for eight and a half minutes like Tom.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by King Bootz »

BucsNBills wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:37 pm
King Bootz wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:33 pm

It doesn’t have to be a savior for 2023. Doesn’t even have to be a savior. Just someone we can hope to build around into the future.
Got any suggestions?
I wouldn’t mind kicking the tires on Mac Jones. Maybe the Pats still believe he is their guy and that 2022 was because of his various injuries, the coaching situation, whatever. But it wouldn’t shock me if they wanted to move on.

We’d be foolish not to take a look at Lamar Jackson and Derek Carr as well, cap situation be damned. Make the math work if you can.

And then of course the draft is always an option. Not every rookie is a Kyle Trask type, an older 5th year senior who needs 2 years of grooming to be mostly average at best.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Navybuc »

I’ll just put this out there…

We are not outbidding the Falcons for Lamar Jackson. Brady has a better shot of coming out of retirement and winning 3 more SBs here than Lamar coming to Tampa.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by BucsNBills »

Jackson grew up in South Florida and has gone on record stating how strong his connection is to the area.

That's about the only advantage we'd have over the Falcons, unless we just go berserk with guaranteed money on his monster contract.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by mdb1958 »

King Bootz wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:21 pm
BucsNBills wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:37 pm

Got any suggestions?
I wouldn’t mind kicking the tires on Mac Jones. Maybe the Pats still believe he is their guy and that 2022 was because of his various injuries, the coaching situation, whatever. But it wouldn’t shock me if they wanted to move on.

We’d be foolish not to take a look at Lamar Jackson and Derek Carr as well, cap situation be damned. Make the math work if you can.

And then of course the draft is always an option. Not every rookie is a Kyle Trask type, an older 5th year senior who needs 2 years of grooming to be mostly average at best.
Who would the Giants replace Jones with? Move up in the draft? Sign another free agent QB?
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by King Bootz »

mdb1958 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:42 pm
King Bootz wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:21 pm

I wouldn’t mind kicking the tires on Mac Jones. Maybe the Pats still believe he is their guy and that 2022 was because of his various injuries, the coaching situation, whatever. But it wouldn’t shock me if they wanted to move on.

We’d be foolish not to take a look at Lamar Jackson and Derek Carr as well, cap situation be damned. Make the math work if you can.

And then of course the draft is always an option. Not every rookie is a Kyle Trask type, an older 5th year senior who needs 2 years of grooming to be mostly average at best.
Who would the Giants replace Jones with? Move up in the draft? Sign another free agent QB?
Depends. How hard do you think it is to find a QB that can throw 15 TD passes in 17 games?
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by King Bootz »

Navybuc wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:32 pm I’ll just put this out there…

We are not outbidding the Falcons for Lamar Jackson. Brady has a better shot of coming out of retirement and winning 3 more SBs here than Lamar coming to Tampa.
Agreed. We aren’t going to outbid anyone, especially Atlanta. I think ultimately if he doesn’t stay in Baltimore, Atlanta is the favorite to land him. They have the need, more importantly they have the funds. But FA isn’t as easy as who has the most money. If the Bucs FO can get in his ear and sell him on a vision, we have a chance.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Snake »

How would you feel if they traded something like a second and a fifth for Mac Jones and it was Trask and Jones fighting for the number one spot next season?

No right or wrong answers. I am curious though.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by Buc2 »

King Bootz wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:33 pm
Buc2 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:00 pm QB or bust. Yep. I 100% agree. But…I don’t see one riding over the hill to come save us atm. For sure not in time for the 2023 season. So the question remains, what should or what will this team do for 2023 to stay as competitive as possible until that savior can crest the hill and make his way into Buccaneer camp?
It doesn’t have to be a savior for 2023. Doesn’t even have to be a savior. Just someone we can hope to build around into the future.
I get that. So who is that “build around” QB? Carr? Lmao. We all know that isn’t it. Mayfield? Lmao even harder. It’s gonna be Trask. For now.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by King Bootz »

Snake wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:07 pm How would you feel if they traded something like a second and a fifth for Mac Jones and it was Trask and Jones fighting for the number one spot next season?

No right or wrong answers. I am curious though.
Just me, I’d send our 1st for Jones. If we can nab him for a 2nd and 5th, that’s a steal. Jones is better than Trask. He comes here, he’s the undisputed starter and I make that clear from day 1.
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by BucsNBills »

King Bootz wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:10 pm
Snake wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:07 pm How would you feel if they traded something like a second and a fifth for Mac Jones and it was Trask and Jones fighting for the number one spot next season?

No right or wrong answers. I am curious though.
Just me, I’d send our 1st for Jones. If we can nab him for a 2nd and 5th, that’s a steal. Jones is better than Trask. He comes here, he’s the undisputed starter and I make that clear from day 1.
Just so long as Todd Bowles doesn't have some random defensive assistant start calling the offense, I'd imagine Jones could flourish here...
mdb1958
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Re: Tampa Bay Buccaneers Official 2023 Off Season Thread

Post by mdb1958 »

Mac Jones did worse than Daniel Jones
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