Should Licht be fired?

[Snake]

Good catch on the trade up. But is it easier to trade up from eighth overall or 15th overall?

The point remains. It is easier to find a great quarterback when you’re picking closer to number one than further away from.

[Doctor]

That literally applies to every single position. You're saying nothing.

What doesn't apply is this stupid notion that all those coaches needed to tank and "not try to 9 meaningless win" to fix things.

[MJW]

I'd rather Carr, Trask, Baker, and whatever other option we can land that we think can win us the most games should be the starter and we'll live with however many wins they can get us.

Again, imagine trying to sell this tanking bullshit to Sean McDermont or Nick Siriani or Brian Daboll. Who instead of tanking, pushed their shitty rosters to the best of their abilities and got 9 wins out of them. Which, according to tanking simp dogma, should've resulted in all of them dooming their franchises.

You keep hoisting up this straw man argument.

Nobody is fucking trying to lose. Losing isn't the point. A higher draft pick is not the point. A rookie savior is not the point. The only time I've seen "try to lose" in action was the last week of the season. This isn't "Major League." We're not trying to move the franchise to Miami.

The point is not using long-term resources in short-term ways on seasons that absolutely, 100% will not end with good results no matter what resources we use on them.

The point is not to kick the cap can so hard that when we're trying to make our next "2020" type push, we're still dealing with dead cap for someone who's been off the roster for 2 years.

The point is that if you're going to suck either way, getting practice reps and snaps to promising young players who might be part of your next window is a better idea than playing that 32 year old who might be a little better right now.

The point is instead of using the draft to plug immediate needs (lookin' at you, Luke Goedeke), you take the guy you like the best long term.

This really isn't that complicated. If you've ever said to yourself, "I'm not going to spend my money today to get something that'll make me a little happy, I'll save it until tomorrow when I can get something much better," you understand. You're not trying to make today miserable. You're building your resources to make tomorrow awesome.

[MJW]

I guess it just depends on what you mean by "Franchise saving". Is the only qualifier for that winning a SB? Because I'm confident that anyone would classify Burrow as a franchise saving QB despite the fact he hasn't won a ring yet.

Has Josh Allen not completely transformed the Buffalo Bills?

Jalen Hurts?

Hurts and Allen prove the point that you don't need to tank to get a great QB or become a winner.

And Brady proved you don't even need to have a pick in the top 198 to find the greatest quarterback of all time.

"People don't always make good decisions with their money" is not the same thing as "Money is overrated."
"People sometimes becomes millionaires with penny stocks" is not the same thing as "There's no reason to acquire more than a few pennies before investing."

If you make shitty picks, it doesn't matter much if you pick #1 or #32. But that's not the same thing as saying #1 doesn't have more value than #32. Every earlier draft picks gives you more options than a later pick. It's up to you to get the research right. If you can't do that, you're fucked no matter what. It doesn't mean the resources themselves have less value.

[Doctor]

Except they are. There is no shortage of tank simps that would lock in a 1-16 season next year to land magic bullet Caleb.

And miss me with your "valuable reps to developmental players" bs. We gave great reps to JTS and Hall, who are coming along, yet people here have already written them off because at the end of the day people care about results.

Winning matters. Yes, even 9 wins matters (see examples above).

[Grahamburn]

I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Josh Allen was picked seventh overall. If they win one more game, they don’t get him. Daniel Jones was also picked in the top seven. If they win one more game, they don’t get him.

If those teams were treadmill teams, they would not have those quarterbacks.

The further you get away from the number one overall pick, the harder it is to find a quality quarterback. It doesn’t mean that you should take a quarterback in the top five, but being bad is ultimately The key to having the best chance at a chance.

I’m sure the Bengals wish they pick 15th that year instead of drafting Joe Burrow.

The Bills traded with us to get Josh Allen. Their record the prior year didn't matter. They made a move to get him.

[Snake]

I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Josh Allen was picked seventh overall. If they win one more game, they don’t get him. Daniel Jones was also picked in the top seven. If they win one more game, they don’t get him.

If those teams were treadmill teams, they would not have those quarterbacks.

The further you get away from the number one overall pick, the harder it is to find a quality quarterback. It doesn’t mean that you should take a quarterback in the top five, but being bad is ultimately The key to having the best chance at a chance.

I’m sure the Bengals wish they pick 15th that year instead of drafting Joe Burrow.

The Bills traded with us to get Josh Allen. Their record the prior year didn't matter. They made a move to get him.

Imagine not having to give up assets to move up.

[Grahamburn]

The Bills traded with us to get Josh Allen. Their record the prior year didn't matter. They made a move to get him.

Imagine not having to give up assets to move up.

I've lived it before and it was 5 years worth of turnover purgatory and zero trips to the post-season. Since when is the #1 overall pick some kind of automatic cheat code to winning? There's a reason the same handful of teams seem to be vying for it every year. Of the teams left in the playoffs right now only two of them have the #1 overall on their roster. One of those had it two years in a row.

There are different ways to build a winning team that don't include enduring horribly miserable seasons.

[Snake]

I’m a draftnik who has seen two SB wins. I can tolerate being bad. Versus fake competing.

[Doctor]

Anyone who lived through the Winless for Winston season should know better.

Alas....

[Snake]

If only Licht was informed enough to know Winston was bad….

[King Bootz]

If only Licht was informed enough to know Winston was bad….

Can't expect this FO to make the best decisions.

[Doctor]

Since the Luck draft, there has been just ONE single year where "tank for our savior QB" wasn't an absolute fool's errand and that was Burrow. You can maybe include Lawrence if there if you are feeling generous.

Yeah.... one year in the last 20 but draft groupies will still swear it's the golden strategy for turning a franchise around.

[Primeminister]

Since the Luck draft, there has been just ONE single year where "tank for our savior QB" wasn't an absolute fool's errand and that was Burrow. You can maybe include Lawrence if there if you are feeling generous.

Yeah.... one year in the last 20 but draft groupies will still swear it's the golden strategy for turning a franchise around.

This is a good find. Well done, Doc.

[Snake]

I’m not about tanking for an individual player. Aka Caleb Williams. But picking as high as possible gives you the best shot at the most players.

Making the incorrect choices - Winston, etc - falls on the GM.

[Cheb]

Since the Luck draft, there has been just ONE single year where "tank for our savior QB" wasn't an absolute fool's errand and that was Burrow. You can maybe include Lawrence if there if you are feeling generous.

Yeah.... one year in the last 20 but draft groupies will still swear it's the golden strategy for turning a franchise around.

And let's not forget that prior to that magical year at LSU, nobody even had Joe Burrow as a first round pick, much less number one overall pick destined to be an NFL savior.

[MJW]

Except they are. There is no shortage of tank simps that would lock in a 1-16 season next year to land magic bullet Caleb.

And miss me with your "valuable reps to developmental players" bs. We gave great reps to JTS and Hall, who are coming along, yet people here have already written them off because at the end of the day people care about results.

Winning matters. Yes, even 9 wins matters (see examples above).

So giving reps to JTS and Hall is helping them develop...and we shouldn't make getting more young players reps a priority.

It's like talking to dumber Bootz.

[Miller4Prez64]

There’s just no realistic way this team can seriously be competitive this upcoming season outstide of Brady coming back. Even then, I expect results closer to 2022 than the previous two years.

-OL is in horrible shape outside of Wirfs, who is now up for a deserved massive contract extension.

-WRs are getting old and best days are past them. There is no depth or speed either. Zero threat in the passing game from any TEs and none that are good blockers to help the OL either.

-Worst RBs in the league.

-DL on the decline with young guys not flashing much and Shaq coming off a big injury. At least there’s Vea.

-Rest of the defense behind them besides White, Winfield and Davis are all FAs.

How are we supposed to address all this while being 40+ million over the cap space and no QB? I don’t want to “tank” or whatever, but the writing is on the wall, the team stinks now and needs an overhaul. That starts with prioritizing young players and draft picks to find the long term pieces to build around. Not messing with the cap more to sign Derek Carr and make a desperate attempt to stay relevant. If we go all in with veterans this season, then this regime will be worse than the Gruden one towards the end of his tenure constantly recycling players on their way out of the league in desperate attempts to avoid rebuilds and keep their job.

[MJW]

There’s just no realistic way this team can seriously be competitive this upcoming season outstide of Brady coming back. Even then, I expect results closer to 2022 than the previous two years.

-OL is in horrible shape outside of Wirfs, who is now up for a deserved massive contract extension.

-WRs are getting old and best days are past them. There is no depth or speed either. Zero threat in the passing game from any TEs and none that are good blockers to help the OL either.

-Worst RBs in the league.

-DL on the decline with young guys not flashing much and Shaq coming off a big injury. At least there’s Vea.

-Rest of the defense behind them besides White, Winfield and Davis are all FAs.

How are we supposed to address all this while being 40+ million over the cap space and no QB? I don’t want to “tank” or whatever, but the writing is on the wall, the team stinks now and needs an overhaul. That starts with prioritizing young players and draft picks to find the long term pieces to build around. Not messing with the cap more to sign Derek Carr and make a desperate attempt to stay relevant. If we go all in with veterans this season, then this regime will be worse than the Gruden one towards the end of his tenure constantly recycling players on their way out of the league in desperate attempts to avoid rebuilds and keep their job.

This, pretty much.

There are still a few good players on this roster, but that's basically true of every roster.
Depth is nonexistent everywhere. Everywhere. And that's before the free agent defections and cap casualties.
Questions at QB no matter what we end up doing.
Our head coach is not good.
We're going to be bad on both lines, period.
If Dean stays, our depth at corner is terrible. If Dean goes, we have 1 legitimate corner right now. And 1 safety.

There's only one question right now - are we going to be a horrid team positioning ourselves to get better, or merely an awful team spending our 401(k) to win a couple more meaningless games?

[real bucs fan]

The team is old and slow and the coaching staff is awful. Some nice young pieces here and there, but I’m hoping for a scorched earth rebuild- maybe get one of those 2024 QBs.

[MJW]

The team is old and slow and the coaching staff is awful. Some nice young pieces here and there, but I’m hoping for a scorched earth rebuild- maybe get one of those 2024 QBs.

Careful, you'll incur the wrath of Doctor for suggesting draft picks could have value.

But yeah. Old. Slow. Poorly Coached. No Depth. Bad on both Lines.

Other than that, I really think Derek Carr can lead us to a title next year. Yep.

[Grahamburn]

Now imagine Trask is good.

[Doctor]

Now imagine Trask is good.

They can't. Doesn't fit the Caleb plan.

[Snake]

Now imagine Trask is good.

Maybe if we took him back to 1955.

[Grahamburn]

Now imagine Trask is good.

They can't. Doesn't fit the Caleb plan.

It's a good time to try to find out if he is.

[King Bootz]

How happy would people be if we go 6-11 with Trask? Still doesn't you a top 3 pick. Still doesn't tell you if he's the guy.

[Miller4Prez64]

How happy would people be if we go 6-11 with Trask? Still doesn't you a top 3 pick. Still doesn't tell you if he's the guy.

It would depend on his numbers tbh. If we went 6-11 because the D plays well and the offense stinks then people are still going to be skeptical. If he plays well, we are in an awkward spot of giving him an extension or risking him hit FA the offseason after.

[Snake]

It really depends what he shows. I think Trask will require great protection to succeed and win more games then he loses. Some quarterbacks can beat good opponents with average or worst pass protection.

So he might be done a disservice by having bad protection (we shall see). But if he’s not mobile, has an average arm, And doesn’t have a lot of juice…maybe that answers the question.

I love systems and coaches who can win with average quarterbacks. Like Shanahan. I just don’t have any faith that bowles is that guy and will find such an OC.

[King Bootz]

How happy would people be if we go 6-11 with Trask? Still doesn't you a top 3 pick. Still doesn't tell you if he's the guy.

It would depend on his numbers tbh. If we went 6-11 because the D plays well and the offense stinks then people are still going to be skeptical. If he plays well, we are in an awkward spot of giving him an extension or risking him hit FA the offseason after.

Something like 20 TDs/12 INTs 3900 yards 62% completion.

[Snake]

It would depend on his numbers tbh. If we went 6-11 because the D plays well and the offense stinks then people are still going to be skeptical. If he plays well, we are in an awkward spot of giving him an extension or risking him hit FA the offseason after.

Something like 20 TDs/12 INTs 3900 yards 62% completion.

If that’s your run of the mill Baker Mayfield 20/12 type of year, you have to move on. Like, if those picks are bad picks and some of those TDs are garbage time chasing better teams when down 17+ in the late fourth quarter…

Just my opinion.

He’s too old and has limited tools to take a season like that as a good thing.

[King Bootz]

Something like 20 TDs/12 INTs 3900 yards 62% completion.

If that’s your run of the mill Baker Mayfield 20/12 type of year, you have to move on. Like, if those picks are bad picks and some of those TDs are garbage time chasing better teams when down 17+ in the late fourth quarter…

Just my opinion.

He’s too old and has limited tools to take a season like that as a good thing.

I can see that you're of the opinion that in his age 25 season he should be producing at a high level. I can't argue with that.

[Snake]

If that’s your run of the mill Baker Mayfield 20/12 type of year, you have to move on. Like, if those picks are bad picks and some of those TDs are garbage time chasing better teams when down 17+ in the late fourth quarter…

Just my opinion.

He’s too old and has limited tools to take a season like that as a good thing.

I can see that you're of the opinion that in his age 25 season he should be producing at a high level. I can't argue with that.

Lamar - 26
Burrow - 26
Kyler - 25
Herbert - 24
Fields - 23
M. Jones - 24

And most of these guys have been producing for years now.

[King Bootz]

I can see that you're of the opinion that in his age 25 season he should be producing at a high level. I can't argue with that.

Lamar - 26
Burrow - 26
Kyler - 25
Herbert - 24
Fields - 23
M. Jones - 24

And most of these guys have been producing for years now.

Yep. This is a reason why I’ve never bought this narrative that we were purposely keeping him behind Gabbert on the depth chart. QBs are producing so early now a days. Tua led the league in passer rating and he and Trask were born 4 days apart. Jalen Hurts and Brock Purdy will play for a trip to the SB and Trask is older than both of them.

Fair or not, he has to basically light it up this year or we’re in the market in 2024.

[nybf]

How happy would people be if we go 6-11 with Trask? Still doesn't you a top 3 pick. Still doesn't tell you if he's the guy.

Judging a qb strictly on the team's W/L?

[acmillis]

Lamar - 26
Burrow - 26
Kyler - 25
Herbert - 24
Fields - 23
M. Jones - 24

And most of these guys have been producing for years now.

Yep. This is a reason why I’ve never bought this narrative that we were purposely keeping him behind Gabbert on the depth chart. QBs are producing so early now a days. Tua led the league in passer rating and he and Trask were born 4 days apart. Jalen Hurts and Brock Purdy will play for a trip to the SB and Trask is older than both of them.

Fair or not, he has to basically light it up this year or we’re in the market in 2024.

In this day and age, where QBs are playing in to their late 30s, are we really bitching about Trask being 25 heading in to next season? So, we only get +/-10 years of him being the starter (if he's good) instead of an extra two years? Oh..you mean his first two years he was behind the GOAT, and literally no backup qb was going to play for this team, so we're really bitching about nothing at all?

Take a look at the MVP qbs over the last forever. Only Mahomes was 25 years old or younger, everybody else (including AROD w/ back to back MVPs in his late 30s) was older.

The QBs you mention in your post with ages, only Lamar and Burrow have shown to be really good, with Herbert being above average IMO. Kyler is not good (so far) Mac Jones is the ultimate game manager (so far), and, IMO, Fields has been horrible (so far).

I just don't get why a QBs age matters whatsoever.