Should Bowles and Leftwich be fired?

[mdb1958]

Goodwin is assistant head coach.

Tom Moore must have connections.

[mdb1958]

19 left

[King Bootz]

Goodwin is assistant head coach.

Tom Moore must have connections.

What does Tom Moore even do?

[Primeminister]

Everyone here by now knows I want Bowles fired, but he deserves credit for making this move. Couldn't have been easy for him since they go way back, and I imagine this probably drew the ire of Arians as well who is another long time friend. But it had to happen as Leftwhich demonstrated he was unable to adapt the offense and his play calling has been picked apart for it's inefficiency.

I just hope a thorough OC search is conducted and we hopefully bring in some fresh and modern concepts to the offense.

Why do you think this was Bowles's move and not Licht's and/or others in management?

I’m leaning on Pewter Report here, but they earned it considering they’ve been proven right over the past couple of months. Anyway according to them Bowles requested and was given the green light to fire Lefty back during the bye week. The problem was simply he couldn’t find a suitable replacement on staff.

It sounds like Bowles realized long ago that Lefty isn’t built for this job, but was saddled with a staff that left him no other options. So I’d say this was Bowles’ call all along.

[mdb1958]

Goodwin is assistant head coach.

Tom Moore must have connections.

What does Tom Moore even do?

I doubt he was the one leaking offensive stats. His title says offensive coach.

[nybf]

What does "leaking offensive stats" mean?

[Grahamburn]

What does "leaking offensive stats" mean?

Depends.

[Heisenberg]

What does "leaking offensive stats" mean?

Depends.

[Pirate Life]

Any college football fans here have an insight on what kind of offense Todd Monken runs? He used to coordinate for the Bucs, right? Honestly I can't remember anything about him. Must've blocked that era of Bucs football out of my memory.

This is what we got when Monken was calling plays before Koetter took the duties back:

[Doctor]

I'm not gonna lie, signing Monken would feel like getting back with an ex gf...

[Primeminister]

Does anyone know what type of offense Monken runs?

[nybf]

Great sex but eventually the cops are involved? Again?

Edit: and that's what I get for not quoting what I was replying to. But f it, I like how this reply lines up, too.

[Babeinbucland]

Great sex but eventually the cops are involved? Again?

I lol’d

[King Bootz]

I knew mdb was bi-posting

[MJW]

Why do you think this was Bowles's move and not Licht's and/or others in management?

I’m leaning on Pewter Report here, but they earned it considering they’ve been proven right over the past couple of months. Anyway according to them Bowles requested and was given the green light to fire Lefty back during the bye week. The problem was simply he couldn’t find a suitable replacement on staff.

It sounds like Bowles realized long ago that Lefty isn’t built for this job, but was saddled with a staff that left him no other options. So I’d say this was Bowles’ call all along.

Harold Goodwin spent five years as Arians's OC in Arizona. He was Leftwich before Leftwich.
Clyde Christensen had been an OC for three different teams, including this one.
Todd McNair had been a running back coach in the NFL for 20 years.
Rick Christophel had been a college offensive coordinator AND head coach.
Tom Moore we can give a pass to since he's 103 years old.

NONE of these people could have conceivably called plays? Either that's bullshit, or we should be asking why Arians/Licht built a staff full of accomplished assistants who weren't prepared (and/or willing) to step up to that role.

[Doctor]

I don't think a different play caller would've helped. What we needed was to completely unravel the offense that won us a superbowl and redesign something that accounts for a horrendous interior OL and a statue QB. While all those old heads have ton of experience, I don't think any of them would have been able to do that. If it was even doable.

I can see how one would arrive to the conclusion that our best option was to try to find/coach up another Stinnie, get healthy, and try to restart the offense that was in place.

[Pirate Life]

Interesting from Pewter Report about last offseason:

“ Bowles had a hunch that the Bucs weren’t going to out-talent the league anymore on offense this season. He asked Leftwich and his offensive coaches – all of whom were Arians disciples and had tunnel vision on his playbook – to broaden their horizons during the offseason in the spring and summer. Watch some college football tape and get innovative. Bring some borrowed ideas, fresh concepts and new plays to supplement the aging Arians playbook.’

But they came back with the same old playbook more or less.

[Nobody]

This is so weird:

https://www.pewterreport.com/bucs-chang ... -sr-fab-5/

This article parallels multiple things I've said in this thread, including the Manning vs Brady paradigm and (most weirdly) containing the quotes from Goodwn in the Stroud piece I referenced from this year.

I'm sure its just a coincidence but...oddly timed.

I will say I (obviously) agree with the content of the article!

[Snake]

They definitely raid message boards for contact. Most journalists and sports writers are complete scum.

[Nobody]

They definitely raid message boards for contact. Most journalists and sports writers are complete scum.

Yeah. I imagine that is "a thing" (unclear if that is a thing here...but its interesting).

Auman with a very interesting piece. https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/b ... -a-new-one

We already knew this (how incredibly awful we were on 3rd and long this year...historically bad actually), but here are some numbers:

* 3rd and 10 + Patriots 2002 through 2019: 22.8 % conversion rate (6th best in the NFL during that interval).

* 2020 Bucs 3rd and 10+ nearly the same rate. 2021 with significant fall-off despite being a better offense than in 2020 (in no small part because they didn't see 3rd and long that often).

* 2022 Bucs? Historically bad (while sitting in 3rd and long at a very high rate; 270 snaps, good for 2nd in the NFL). 3-68 or 4.8 % conversion rate; the worst for any NFL team in history since 1980!

[13F11B]

@Nobody The offense and defense were terrible on 3rd down.

[Doctor]

Fuck this stupid "out-talented everyone" narrative. WTF does that never mean?? It was simple, effortless "talent" that won and not the countless reps that were put in by Evans, Godwin, Brady and everyone else?

I suppose it was also the raw talent of 35 y/o, 3rd-team Carson Palmer playing with the elite CJ2K, John Brown, Michael Floyd, and twilight Fitzgerald that led them to be one the top offense in the league too right?

The "out-talented" narrative is incredibly disrespectful to all the work everyone on offense put in and such a lazy take. It's only a half step behind the buc-hating narrative of "Brady gifted Tampa a ring".

[13F11B]

I suppose it was also the raw talent of 35 y/o, 3rd-team Carson Palmer playing with the elite CJ2K, John Brown, Michael Floyd, and twilight Fitzgerald that led them to be one the top offense in the league too right?

The real question people have is how much did Bruce Arians affect the outcome. Many doubted Arians when he claimed Leftwhich called the plays, developed the game plan, etc. I think given the results this year that is a fair question. In reality, this was not all Leftwhich's fault but he failed to adjust and grow the offense over the course of the season.

[Doctor]

The idea that Arian was lying about calling plays is simply bonkers.

As much as I love Arians, I'm not entirely sure how much more of a difference he would have made this year. The points of lack of creativity of the offense are indeed valid. (The implication that creativity is critical to winning is not.) The Arians offense is very much an old school hat-on-hat offense that relies on high-level execution to beat the man in front of you, whether that be Palmer throwing to John Brown or Brady to Godwin.

I don't think Arians could've/would've drawn up some cutting edge creative plays to make up for all our injuries and losses. No, he would've likely gone with a similar approach of trying to coach up the talent you do have to actually play up to their potential. Now, on that front would he have been more successful? Probably, he's a x2 CoY for a reason.

[MJW]

The idea that Arian was lying about calling plays is simply bonkers.

As much as I love Arians, I'm not entirely sure how much more of a difference he would have made this year. The points of lack of creativity of the offense are indeed valid. (The implication that creativity is critical to winning is not.) The Arians offense is very much an old school hat-on-hat offense that relies on high-level execution to beat the man in front of you, whether that be Palmer throwing to John Brown or Brady to Godwin.

I don't think Arians could've/would've drawn up some cutting edge creative plays to make up for all our injuries and losses. No, he would've likely gone with a similar approach of trying to coach up the talent you do have to actually play up to their potential. Now, on that front would he have been more successful? Probably, he's a x2 CoY for a reason.

I don't think it's so much "cutting edge plays" as it is attempting to exploit matchups, taking advantage of defensive tendencies, knowing when to break formations, and understanding play sequencing.

I can't remember very many good examples of any of these things in 2022. The play-calling reminded me a ton of watching my kid play Madden, when 9 out of 10 times, he simply calls one of the three plays suggested by the computer.

[Doctor]

I get what you are saying, but that wasn't this offense. This offense isn't one that is built on disguises, mismatches, and trickery. It's built on good old fashion, your guy lined up vs my guy, let's see who executes better. Those drills where you lined up 1-on-1 WR v DB, that's what this is. And not just winning off "talent" but winning because both QB and WR both read the same thing and connect. Sure, it's even better when it's Godwin and not Michael Floyd, but it's all about execution. More so it's about finding those moments when the DB is creeping and you catch him over the top for the big play. The biscuits. And Arians executed it to great success in 5 of his last 6 seasons, with a wide range of "talent".

We failed, for various reasons, to execute last year. The overall ability to be able to execute such an offense by this squad has been rightfully called into question and why we are looking for a change.

[Grahamburn]

The point is he couldn’t just run “this offense” anymore and be successful. He made no changes schematically or philosophically based on the talent of the players he had, and if you’re incapable of doing that in the NFL you lose your job.

Now, personally, I would have held everyone accountable for that. Not just Leftwich. But, he ran the offense, so.. All the offensive coaches got canned.

From the article it sounds like Bowles wasn’t permitted to pursue his own guys, so he’s getting a little rope for 2023.

[Grahamburn]

I suppose it was also the raw talent of 35 y/o, 3rd-team Carson Palmer playing with the elite CJ2K, John Brown, Michael Floyd, and twilight Fitzgerald that led them to be one the top offense in the league too right?

The real question people have is how much did Bruce Arians affect the outcome. Many doubted Arians when he claimed Leftwhich called the plays, developed the game plan, etc. I think given the results this year that is a fair question. In reality, this was not all Leftwhich's fault but he failed to adjust and grow the offense over the course of the season.

I think if Leftwich had AB, Gronk, Jensen, and Marpet he would have had another successful season. Unfortunately, he didn’t have those players and he made no changes to account for those losses.

Just watch some of these offenses this weekend. How vastly different they are from us. Not all those teams have the best line in the NFL and 4 All-Pro weapons in the passing game like we did in 20-21.

Leftwich could have adapted and implemented those concepts here when we lost those players. He didn’t.

[wesmon]

This is so weird:

https://www.pewterreport.com/bucs-chang ... -sr-fab-5/

This article parallels multiple things I've said in this thread, including the Manning vs Brady paradigm and (most weirdly) containing the quotes from Goodwn in the Stroud piece I referenced from this year.

I'm sure its just a coincidence but...oddly timed.

I will say I (obviously) agree with the content of the article!

That reads like it was written by Bowles' agent.

[Navybuc]

The real question people have is how much did Bruce Arians affect the outcome. Many doubted Arians when he claimed Leftwhich called the plays, developed the game plan, etc. I think given the results this year that is a fair question. In reality, this was not all Leftwhich's fault but he failed to adjust and grow the offense over the course of the season.

I think if Leftwich had AB, Gronk, Jensen, and Marpet he would have had another successful season.

Hell, when you have those guys in addition to the guys we have, you don’t even need to coach. Just sit back, have a beer and let TB do the rest…which is part of the reason why BL got canned. Like you said, when he actually had to coach, he couldn’t do it. This year proved how bad an OC he was.

Somewhere I hear in the distance Jaguars fans screaming thank you’s to the heavens that they didn’t hire him as HC. Funny thing is there were rumors they offered him the job and he wanted to pick his own GM and have a lot of power. If those reports are true, Id laugh myself silly.

[Buc2]

This is so weird:

https://www.pewterreport.com/bucs-chang ... -sr-fab-5/

This article parallels multiple things I've said in this thread, including the Manning vs Brady paradigm and (most weirdly) containing the quotes from Goodwn in the Stroud piece I referenced from this year.

I'm sure its just a coincidence but...oddly timed.

I will say I (obviously) agree with the content of the article!

Good article.

This part is of the article is for @Doctor and anyone else that thinks Brady ran the offense...

Why Didn’t Brady Just Take Over And Call Plays On The Field?

As it has been explained to me, Brady does not want control over the offense. He is not like Peyton Manning, who liked to call his own plays and direct the offense from the field. Brady wants to focus on executing the play that is called and making it work. He does not want to call plays and have to worry about what play would work best on a certain down and distance based on a certain defensive personnel package.

There is no doubt that Brady collaborated with Leftwich during the week and helped pick the plays that were called on game days based on what worked in practice. But like it or not, Brady is subservient as a quarterback. He is a soldier – not a field general – when it comes to the plays that are called.

Where Brady did feel comfortable taking over and calling plays was when the team went no-huddle and executed the two-minute offense. That happened to be where the Bucs offense had its most success, evidenced by late, come-from-behind wins over the Rams, Saints, Cardinals and Panthers. Unfortunately, the Bucs didn’t do more of that.

[King Bootz]

This is so weird:

https://www.pewterreport.com/bucs-chang ... -sr-fab-5/

This article parallels multiple things I've said in this thread, including the Manning vs Brady paradigm and (most weirdly) containing the quotes from Goodwn in the Stroud piece I referenced from this year.

I'm sure its just a coincidence but...oddly timed.

I will say I (obviously) agree with the content of the article!

Good article.

This part is of the article is for @Doctor and anyone else that thinks Brady ran the offense...

Why Didn’t Brady Just Take Over And Call Plays On The Field?

As it has been explained to me, Brady does not want control over the offense. He is not like Peyton Manning, who liked to call his own plays and direct the offense from the field. Brady wants to focus on executing the play that is called and making it work. He does not want to call plays and have to worry about what play would work best on a certain down and distance based on a certain defensive personnel package.

There is no doubt that Brady collaborated with Leftwich during the week and helped pick the plays that were called on game days based on what worked in practice. But like it or not, Brady is subservient as a quarterback. He is a soldier – not a field general – when it comes to the plays that are called.

Where Brady did feel comfortable taking over and calling plays was when the team went no-huddle and executed the two-minute offense. That happened to be where the Bucs offense had its most success, evidenced by late, come-from-behind wins over the Rams, Saints, Cardinals and Panthers. Unfortunately, the Bucs didn’t do more of that.

You mean nearly everyone who thought the same when the offense was working like a well oiled machine? That's who that excerpt is for.

[Primeminister]

I’m leaning on Pewter Report here, but they earned it considering they’ve been proven right over the past couple of months. Anyway according to them Bowles requested and was given the green light to fire Lefty back during the bye week. The problem was simply he couldn’t find a suitable replacement on staff.

It sounds like Bowles realized long ago that Lefty isn’t built for this job, but was saddled with a staff that left him no other options. So I’d say this was Bowles’ call all along.

Harold Goodwin spent five years as Arians's OC in Arizona. He was Leftwich before Leftwich.
Clyde Christensen had been an OC for three different teams, including this one.
Todd McNair had been a running back coach in the NFL for 20 years.
Rick Christophel had been a college offensive coordinator AND head coach.
Tom Moore we can give a pass to since he's 103 years old.

NONE of these people could have conceivably called plays? Either that's bullshit, or we should be asking why Arians/Licht built a staff full of accomplished assistants who weren't prepared (and/or willing) to step up to that role.

I believe you’re seeing why much of that staff has been fired/retired. Bowles’ did not believe anyone could handle the play calling duties. Actually Arians agreed with this assessment because he repeatedly said he would never have come out of retirement if Leftwich didn’t call the plays.

[Doctor]

This is so weird:

https://www.pewterreport.com/bucs-chang ... -sr-fab-5/

This article parallels multiple things I've said in this thread, including the Manning vs Brady paradigm and (most weirdly) containing the quotes from Goodwn in the Stroud piece I referenced from this year.

I'm sure its just a coincidence but...oddly timed.

I will say I (obviously) agree with the content of the article!

Good article.

This part is of the article is for @Doctor and anyone else that thinks Brady ran the offense...

Why Didn’t Brady Just Take Over And Call Plays On The Field?

As it has been explained to me, Brady does not want control over the offense. He is not like Peyton Manning, who liked to call his own plays and direct the offense from the field. Brady wants to focus on executing the play that is called and making it work. He does not want to call plays and have to worry about what play would work best on a certain down and distance based on a certain defensive personnel package.

There is no doubt that Brady collaborated with Leftwich during the week and helped pick the plays that were called on game days based on what worked in practice. But like it or not, Brady is subservient as a quarterback. He is a soldier – not a field general – when it comes to the plays that are called.

Where Brady did feel comfortable taking over and calling plays was when the team went no-huddle and executed the two-minute offense. That happened to be where the Bucs offense had its most success, evidenced by late, come-from-behind wins over the Rams, Saints, Cardinals and Panthers. Unfortunately, the Bucs didn’t do more of that.

Most of the article is just "we called it first" stuff.

We need to clarify what "runs the offense" means. NO QB "calls their own plays" in the way an OC does, not even Manning. What you have are degrees of freedoms from "here, this is the one play, run it right" you would give someone like Zach Wilson to "here are multiple plays, your pocket audibles, and any calls you want to make from the line" that you would give a higher level QB.

No QB is drawing up their own plays or writing their own playbook, and no one actually would say they are.
At the same time, it is absolutely ridiculous to believe that Tom Brady, who supposedly got BA kicked upstairs, had any restrictions put on him in any way.

[Selmon Rules]

The real question people have is how much did Bruce Arians affect the outcome. Many doubted Arians when he claimed Leftwhich called the plays, developed the game plan, etc. I think given the results this year that is a fair question. In reality, this was not all Leftwhich's fault but he failed to adjust and grow the offense over the course of the season.

I think if Leftwich had AB, Gronk, Jensen, and Marpet he would have had another successful season. Unfortunately, he didn’t have those players and he made no changes to account for those losses.

Just watch some of these offenses this weekend. How vastly different they are from us. Not all those teams have the best line in the NFL and 4 All-Pro weapons in the passing game like we did in 20-21.

Leftwich could have adapted and implemented those concepts here when we lost those players. He didn’t.

One thing that the teams playing this weekend have that we didn't is creative play design and play calling