Should Bowles and Leftwich be fired?

[BucsNBills]

Here's the thing with Leftwich, him being a dogshit playcaller isn't some new phenomenon. We just had the talent to compensate for his piss poor play composition during our first two years with Brady, and this year we absolutely did not. @Nobody has waxed on about the poor 1st down playcalling, PFF mentions it all the time when discussing our calls, it's not even a question at this point that playcalling is just bad. And when you look at the plays themselves, nothing has changed. Nothing has been innovated. It's just the same boring formations with the same plays over and over again. There's Mic'd up sound bytes where defenders talk about knowing the plays based on formation and whatnot. There's simply nothing approaching innovation or modern NFL play design within our offense.

Again, this has been true since Brady took over in 2020.

Moreover, two things can be true at the same time. We can have a dogshit playcaller and OC(we absolutely do) and Brady could play well below expectations this year, further compounding the offensive issues(he absolutely did). For the most part, especially in the Gameday thread, there wasn't any sign of Brady apologists. Everyone called out his absolutely terrible play last night. It was his lowest graded game as a Buc and I've yet to see anyone deny it.

I don't want Brady back AND Leftwich(and Bolwes) deserve to be fired. Both are true. Brady can go be someone else's problem where every time an offensive player gets hurt you have to hold your breath because anything less than perfection is going to result in a clown show on offense. I don't want that problem for the Bucs any longer.

[13F11B]

I am going to agree with both Sharpe and others.

Brady was not the Brady of old.
The playcalling was miserable this season.

I would like to see both of these change this off-season.

[Buc2]

Brady needs new scenery. Either the scenery from his backyard pool or another team. It's time for him and the Bucs to move on.

Me to Brady: Thanks for a few exciting years and, especially, helping my Bucs win another Lombardi. Good luck with your future endeavors.

[Nobody]

I said it before the season started (and I remember taking some flack for it...like I was seeing something that wasn't there). Brady was acting weird early on. He was acting disconnected, he was vacant, he was unavailable (physically and mentally it looked like), and he wasn't around his teammates.

For the first time ever it looked like he was checked out or in the process of checking out. His preparation and dedication clearly wasn't where it historically was. And that looked like that showed up in chemistry issues during key moments of games (perfect ball placement and wide of the mark is a fine line that is all about timing and angles...and those things are resolved via "same pagedness" due to reps and communication and mutual understanding of concepts/preferences in route-running vs coverage dynamics).

Brady dealt with a cataclysm on the left side. Goedeke played the first half of the season and was all-time terrible at LG leading to play-destroying B gap pressure. Smith regressed wildly so the same thing happened there. Brady's cognitive loop turned into a complete clusterfuck and he was bailing on plays early and refusing to take (albeit dangerous ones...not just for him but dangerous hits that bring the specter of turnovers into play).

Despite that, he was still playing at an extremely high level through the first 12 games of the season or so (sitting at top in the league in Turnover Worthy Plays, Time to Throw, and around the top 5 in DYAR, DVOA, PFF Passing Grade, and Big Time Throw %). But things went sideways and he played not nearly good enough down the stretch against SF, Cin, Arizona.

And the reality is, this offense was crippled by play-calling dynamics. Great offenses feature play-callers and concepts that are not dependent upon crazy level of elite QB play...play-in and play-out. They generate open players (oftentimes massively open players) and easy throws and big wins due to concepts and manipulation; Shannahan generating hugely efficient and effective QB play for both Garapalo and Purdy is as much, if not more, an artifact of Shannahan than it is those two QBs. Not here. Here its the inverse.

And through the whole thing, from OTAs, to TC, to regular season...Brady just_looked_off mentally. Disconnected. Weirdly volatile (totally losing his composure sometimes in key moments...other times looking like Jay Cutler in key moments). Absent both physically (in that he wasn't around his teammates on the sidelines and he was missing practices during the week) and mentally (weird shell-shocked looks and seemingly white flags of surrender going into the huddle before key early 3rd downs and then after that 3rd down failed and its 3 & out in a pivotal early situation).

The guy still has the tools physically. But at no point during this year did he look like any type of leader...let alone maybe the greatest field general in NFL history. He looked like a guy with not nearly enough fucks to give from start to finish. Looked like a guy that either didn't want to be here or didn't care that he was here. And I have to believe that trickled down, over, and up to the rest of this entire team. I find it very hard to believe that everyone in that locker room didn't "feel it" ("it" being Brady's mental state collapse).

[mdb1958]

If only these coaches would have put these players in the position to make plays, play exceptionally smart football, win one on one's at even 15/20%, tackle well, and block. Not some! But most all of them on both sides of the football.
Who leaves and who stays - don't have a clue

[Doctor]

"Crazy levels of QB play" is a bit much. FFS Winston popped off in this offense. It doesn't need the QB to make insane plays... just to make the same read as his WR and get the ball there. And have the OL hold up for a few of our big money plays. That's it.

I get the Shanny system is all the rage right, the NFL is a copycat league.

[BucsNBills]

I guess we have different definitions of "popping off". I don't think throwing 30 interceptions and along with 5 fumbles, including a record setting seven pick six interceptions.

But hey, to each their own.

[Doctor]

Do you really think bringing up the fact that Winston can also make bad plays is a somehow valid point for the argument that you need to have "crazy levels of QB play" to be able to make good plays in this offense?

[BucsNBills]

Do you really think bringing up the fact that Winston can also make bad plays is a somehow valid point for the argument that you need to have "crazy levels of QB play" to be able to make good plays in this offense?

The only time this offense actually worked is when we had arguably the best roster in the league, and with Brady playing at an MVP level(he's the real MVP from last year) or the 2nd or 3rd highest graded QB in the league in 2020.

There's been nothing close to success from this offense beyond those two years, both of which required best in league QB play.

[Nobody]

"Crazy levels of QB play" is a bit much. FFS Winston popped off in this offense. It doesn't need the QB to make insane plays... just to make the same read as his WR and get the ball there. And have the OL hold up for a few of our big money plays. That's it.

I get the Shanny system is all the rage right, the NFL is a copycat league.

Winston's 2019 was the antithesis of "crazy level of elite QBing." In terms of efficiencies and turnovers it was bottom of the league in a league that is built to amplify QB play (from gross stats, to big time play optimization, to increased efficiencies, to minimizing tournover-worthy-plays, to minimizing QB Sacks).

All of those gross statistics are a complete artifact of volume and being down (overwhelmingly due to that terrible QB play...while simultaneously not rallying to victory). He single-handedly crippled that defense. Here are his advanced metrics for 2019:

# 23 DYAR
# 24 DVOA
# 25 PFF Grade
# 30 Turnover-Worthy Plays (only Jones and Allen were worse)
# 30 Adjusted Completion %
# 32 Own Pressures Allowed
# 33 Own Sacks Allowed

That...is...horrendous. And I can't remember the statistic, but we had historically the worst field position afforded to defense by an offense and/or the worst EPA added to defense as a product of the offense in NFL history. And that was all Jameis. It was a year for the ages of bad QBing. Any alternative view of that 2019 history has about the most skewed lens imaginable through which they're viewing.

Garappolo and Purdy's numbers contrasted with those above are night-and-day. A simple brief examination:

Of qualifying QBs, Garappolo was # 8 DYAR and # 1 (yes...1...totally an artifact of Shanahan's ultra-efficient and EPA-best offense and the easy QBing he generates) DVOA! Purdy of the qualifying QBs who through sub-200 attempts? #1 DYAR and # 5 DVOA (that DVOA would qualify as # 5 for all qualifying QBs...his # 4 ranking is an artifact of stupidly low attempt QBs being above him). But sure...this is clearly a total coincidentialy by-product of both of Garappolo and Purdy...not Shanahan's offense.

[Doctor]

Do you really think bringing up the fact that Winston can also make bad plays is a somehow valid point for the argument that you need to have "crazy levels of QB play" to be able to make good plays in this offense?

The only time this offense actually worked is when we had arguably the best roster in the league, and with Brady playing at an MVP level(he's the real MVP from last year) or the 2nd or 3rd highest graded QB in the league in 2020.

There's been nothing close to success from this offense beyond those two years, both of which required best in league QB play.

You mean the team was good when we had good players playing good?

[Doctor]

The Arians offense was a top 5 scoring offense for 5 of his last 6 years... but we're going to pretend that's not the case. Not only that we're going to pretend that instead of fueling our fantastic 2020 run, it was actually God Brady and great WRs (who are still here) that somehow willed their way past such a shit offense scheme to win it for us.

Okay, sure.

[Navybuc]

The Arians offense was a top 5 scoring offense for 5 of his last 6 years... but we're going to pretend that's not the case. Not only that we're going to pretend that instead of fueling our fantastic 2020 run, it was actually God Brady and great WRs (who are still here) that somehow willed their way past such a shit offense scheme to win it for us.

Okay, sure.

Arians also had Gronk, Ali Marpet and Alex Cappa who were three huge pieces of this offense. This team missed Gronk more than anyone can imagine this year. He not only was a red zone threat and playmaker, but he was one of the best run blockers in the NFL. It’s no coincidence that he leaves and our red zone offense goes to hell and our running game is a dud.

This team needs a playmaker badly.

[13F11B]

I am starting to believe that Bowles is on his way out as well. I think we will know by Monday next week.

[Phantom]

Still waiting for 3:30 press conference

[Doctor]

Why?

We're just going to bring in someone to lame duck for a year before we demand his head too.

Rinse. Repeat. Bucs life.

[Cheb]

The Arians offense was a top 5 scoring offense for 5 of his last 6 years... but we're going to pretend that's not the case. Not only that we're going to pretend that instead of fueling our fantastic 2020 run, it was actually God Brady and great WRs (who are still here) that somehow willed their way past such a shit offense scheme to win it for us.

Okay, sure.

Yes, the Arians offense was very proficient, but the Leftwich offense stinks on ice.

Remember the 2014 season, Lovie's first season as head coach here, when Marcus Arroyo was our offensive coordinator, Josh McCown and Mike Glennon were our starting quarterbacks, Doug Martin and Bobby Rainey were splitting carries, and we went 2-14 on the season en route to drafting Jameis? That group of bumbling buffoons averaged 17.3 points per game.

Our team this year, stacked with talent and objectively better than that 2014 team on paper, averaged 18.4 points per game, scarcely a point better than that team.

When you're getting outschemed by Coach Soulpatch, who was in his first NFL job mind you, you know you suck.

Leftwich's results over the past year speaks for itself, and his blasé attitude about his crappy job throughout the year doesn't help anything either. It reminds me of Jameis talking about how much he was balling despite throwing 30 picks.

[Snake]

I said it before the season started (and I remember taking some flack for it...like I was seeing something that wasn't there). Brady was acting weird early on. He was acting disconnected, he was vacant, he was unavailable (physically and mentally it looked like), and he wasn't around his teammates.

For the first time ever it looked like he was checked out or in the process of checking out. His preparation and dedication clearly wasn't where it historically was. And that looked like that showed up in chemistry issues during key moments of games (perfect ball placement and wide of the mark is a fine line that is all about timing and angles...and those things are resolved via "same pagedness" due to reps and communication and mutual understanding of concepts/preferences in route-running vs coverage dynamics).

Brady dealt with a cataclysm on the left side. Goedeke played the first half of the season and was all-time terrible at LG leading to play-destroying B gap pressure. Smith regressed wildly so the same thing happened there. Brady's cognitive loop turned into a complete clusterfuck and he was bailing on plays early and refusing to take (albeit dangerous ones...not just for him but dangerous hits that bring the specter of turnovers into play).

Despite that, he was still playing at an extremely high level through the first 12 games of the season or so (sitting at top in the league in Turnover Worthy Plays, Time to Throw, and around the top 5 in DYAR, DVOA, PFF Passing Grade, and Big Time Throw %). But things went sideways and he played not nearly good enough down the stretch against SF, Cin, Arizona.

And the reality is, this offense was crippled by play-calling dynamics. Great offenses feature play-callers and concepts that are not dependent upon crazy level of elite QB play...play-in and play-out. They generate open players (oftentimes massively open players) and easy throws and big wins due to concepts and manipulation; Shannahan generating hugely efficient and effective QB play for both Garapalo and Purdy is as much, if not more, an artifact of Shannahan than it is those two QBs. Not here. Here its the inverse.

And through the whole thing, from OTAs, to TC, to regular season...Brady just_looked_off mentally. Disconnected. Weirdly volatile (totally losing his composure sometimes in key moments...other times looking like Jay Cutler in key moments). Absent both physically (in that he wasn't around his teammates on the sidelines and he was missing practices during the week) and mentally (weird shell-shocked looks and seemingly white flags of surrender going into the huddle before key early 3rd downs and then after that 3rd down failed and its 3 & out in a pivotal early situation).

The guy still has the tools physically. But at no point during this year did he look like any type of leader...let alone maybe the greatest field general in NFL history. He looked like a guy with not nearly enough fucks to give from start to finish. Looked like a guy that either didn't want to be here or didn't care that he was here. And I have to believe that trickled down, over, and up to the rest of this entire team. I find it very hard to believe that everyone in that locker room didn't "feel it" ("it" being Brady's mental state collapse).

Brady didn’t want to be in Tampa. There’s clear and strong evidence of this.

Add in the o-line falling apart, his marriage falling apart, and Leftwich’s playcalling and it’s a real shit sandwich.

[Jonny]

There is one thing to be optimistic about as far as delay in Leftwich's firing is concerned. Maybe the Glazers are contemplating on firing the whole damn coaching staff, as they should. Except for a case of mercy, there are no valid reasons to why Bowles should hold on his job. Fire Bowles and you have fired all of the baggage attached to Arians' acolytes. Fire Keith Armstrong twice in particular.

[GreatTimes]

There is one thing to be optimistic about as far as delay in Leftwich's firing is concerned. Maybe the Glazers are contemplating on firing the whole damn coaching staff, as they should. Except for a case of mercy, there are no valid reasons to why Bowles should hold on his job. Fire Bowles and you have fired all of the baggage attached to Arians' acolytes. Fire Keith Armstrong twice in particular.

Naw, lets wait until March before firing everyone. That way all the good coaches will have already signed with another team.

[Doctor]

The Arians offense was a top 5 scoring offense for 5 of his last 6 years... but we're going to pretend that's not the case. Not only that we're going to pretend that instead of fueling our fantastic 2020 run, it was actually God Brady and great WRs (who are still here) that somehow willed their way past such a shit offense scheme to win it for us.

Okay, sure.

Yes, the Arians offense was very proficient, but the Leftwich offense stinks on ice.

Remember the 2014 season, Lovie's first season as head coach here, when Marcus Arroyo was our offensive coordinator, Josh McCown and Mike Glennon were our starting quarterbacks, Doug Martin and Bobby Rainey were splitting carries, and we went 2-14 on the season en route to drafting Jameis? That group of bumbling buffoons averaged 17.3 points per game.

Our team this year, stacked with talent and objectively better than that 2014 team on paper, averaged 18.4 points per game, scarcely a point better than that team.

When you're getting outschemed by Coach Soulpatch, who was in his first NFL job mind you, you know you suck.

Leftwich's results over the past year speaks for itself, and his blasé attitude about his crappy job throughout the year doesn't help anything either. It reminds me of Jameis talking about how much he was balling despite throwing 30 picks.

The Arians playbook is one that gets carved down to the plays the QB loves. The QB walks to the line with a few calls and chooses the play based on what he sees. Lefty would be like a sous-chef or nurse, putting the right play options before the QB, changing them up as needed to continue to hit the defense at their weak points for big biscuits. Lefty was fantastic at this and this is what got repeatedly praised by Arians and Brady. Overall, I doubt much of this process changed going into this year. As Bowles said in his PC this was 4 year entrenched offense.

Going from one of the best interior OLs in the league to one of the worst may play a tiny major part in it.
Would Arians have been able to handle things better than the flat duo of Brady/Lefty? Yes, I totally think so. The best these two came up with were more screen passes.

Also Arians and Licht invested more into the trenches, giving us depth like Stinnie, and relied on guys like Scotty for a punch. This year we doubled down on "Brady guys" and brought in Julio and Gage, while leaving our trenches thin. That also played a part. Not to say anything of simply being able to coach up talent.

While it may be unfair to Lefty after just one season where he wasn't even the main pilot, I wouldn't blame Bowles one bit for wanting to hitch his wagon to someone else. In the end you don't want an offense with such an awfully low floor, even if it can put up 30 ppg when clicking.

[Nobody]

Do you really think bringing up the fact that Winston can also make bad plays is a somehow valid point for the argument that you need to have "crazy levels of QB play" to be able to make good plays in this offense?

The only time this offense actually worked is when we had arguably the best roster in the league, and with Brady playing at an MVP level(he's the real MVP from last year) or the 2nd or 3rd highest graded QB in the league in 2020.

There's been nothing close to success from this offense beyond those two years, both of which required best in league QB play.

2019 OFFENSE DVOA # 22
2019 WINSTON DYAR # 23 DVOA # 24

2020 OFFENSE DVOA # 3
2020 BRADY DYAR # 3 DVOA # 4

2021 OFFENSE DVOA # 1
2021 BRADY DYAR # 1 DVOA # 2

2022 OFFENSE DVOA # 16
2022 BRADY DYAR # 3 DVOA # 8

The correlation between QB DVOA and Offense DVOA is extremely good except in some ZRO/Run-heavy offenses (not Philly this year as Hurts DVOA correlates because how good he was in the passing game). The anomalies that decouple it are variables like historically bad running games and situational problems with the offense (such as game planning and play-calling paradigm - coaching, an absolute sieve at LG for 7 games that isn’t game-planned around by coaching, huge drops in key situations, a LT that has reverted to worst form possible (game crippling penalties + play-killing assignment losses in run game and pass pro, a QB that isn’t on the same page as their relievers in key situations because they aren’t practicing once a week/WRs are injured and aren’t practicing)

[Nobody]

@Doctor , you are completely manufacturing this “Brady was the primary gameplanner/play-caller.”

What is your evidence of that? What receipts do you have whatsoever to support this assertion?

If anything, it seems much more feasible to infer that Brady was more checked out than ever during the week (never missing practices historically while on a designed regiment of sitting out practice weekly while interspersing random absences completely) and a vacant, relatively barely embodied figure (by historical comparison to himself) on the sidelines during games.

EDIT - And by all means, blame him for the above. That is the #1 critique of Brady this year for me. And its not a small one. Chemistry, presence, details, leadership and the knock-on effects of these things.

[Doctor]

Literally, everything we've heard from every interview of how this offense has been running for the passed four years. It is a very QB empowering/centric system. Tom Brady hasn't run a play he hasn't wanted in years. The idea that Byron Leftwich is all the of the sudden the power in the room and is forcing bad plays down Brady's throat takes a child like level of hero worship.

In the end of the day, besides calling his number way too much, it wasn't the playcalls (neither the slate provided by Lefty or the selections by Brady) that were particularly terrible as much as their execution. We called the right play, the big play was there, but the WR sat on the route instead of running into the green where Brady threw it. Or maybe we read it right but the ball was just way off. Or a drop.

Several points of failure coming after the playcall.

And yes, fully agree on Brady not being all-in this year. Which is literally his entire thing.

[real bucs fan]

Arians truly was a great coach. Him retiring really fucked everything.

I’m on record hating the way Arians’ reputation was tarnished with the Brady rumors. The fans around here never appreciated that Arians’ was a fucking great coach. I remember Brady getting all the credit and even now see some fans saying the great offensive years were due to Brady overriding Arians.

This year we see what Brady looks like in this offense without Arians. No thank you.

The overall quality control took a major hit. Arians was that CEO coach and seemed to have his impact on everything. From game planning and play calling to on field discipline (penalties!), the difference has been tangible. We just didn’t have the mistakes we have now. Basically have gone from mistake free football to mistake prone football.

[_MB_]

I’m on record hating the way Arians’ reputation was tarnished with the Brady rumors. The fans around here never appreciated that Arians’ was a fucking great coach. I remember Brady getting all the credit and even now see some fans saying the great offensive years were due to Brady overriding Arians.

This year we see what Brady looks like in this offense without Arians. No thank you.

The overall quality control took a major hit. Arians was that CEO coach and seemed to have his impact on everything. From game planning and play calling to on field discipline (penalties!), the difference has been tangible. We just didn’t have the mistakes we have now. Basically have gone from mistake free football to mistake prone football.

My interpretation of BA'S function nowadays is to advise the now diversified glazer family ownership group on how the team is doing independent of the general manager.

That has to be the sweetest job in football.

[Jonny]

Literally, everything we've heard from every interview of how this offense has been running for the passed four years. It is a very QB empowering/centric system. Tom Brady hasn't run a play he hasn't wanted in years. The idea that Byron Leftwich is all the of the sudden the power in the room and is forcing bad plays down Brady's throat takes a child like level of hero worship.

In the end of the day, besides calling his number way too much, it wasn't the playcalls (neither the slate provided by Lefty or the selections by Brady) that were particularly terrible as much as their execution. We called the right play, the big play was there, but the WR sat on the route instead of running into the green where Brady threw it. Or maybe we read it right but the ball was just way off. Or a drop.

Several points of failure coming after the playcall.

And yes, fully agree on Brady not being all-in this year. Which is literally his entire thing.

Even I don't don't agree with your takes, I understand where you are coming from and the possibilities you present are valid. It is very important that we get a competent OC that runs their system and gives very little reason for wanting to argue or domineer.

[real bucs fan]

The overall quality control took a major hit. Arians was that CEO coach and seemed to have his impact on everything. From game planning and play calling to on field discipline (penalties!), the difference has been tangible. We just didn’t have the mistakes we have now. Basically have gone from mistake free football to mistake prone football.

My interpretation of BA'S function nowadays is to advise the now diversified glazer family ownership group on how the team is doing independent of the general manager.

That has to be the sweetest job in football.

Can just imagine that meeting.

Bruce Arians: “They Stink”

[Doctor]

I mean don't get me wrong, Lefty left a lot to be desired. The floor totally fell out on his watch. It was on him to serve Brady up better play options that accounted for our short comings. Find a way to get the run game going. Been more up tempo. Even push for going for it more on 4th down more.

Do not misunderstand, I lay most of those offenses failures on Lefty feet and his inability to prevent them is a mark on him. But that's very different from this wild, rage filled narrative of Lefty being a worthless, drooling idiot who bullied the GOAT into terrible plays and every one has just been lying this whole time.

[Doctor]

[13F11B]

Well,... they must feel that he is going to be fired. I suspect we will know more Monday.

[Doctor]

@Doctor , you are completely manufacturing this “Brady was the primary gameplanner/play-caller.”

What is your evidence of that? What receipts do you have whatsoever to support this assertion?

Also
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesco ... 061744/amp

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers have allowed quarterback Tom Brady to call the offensive plays for weeks, head coach Bruce Arians told NFL Network's Michael Silver.

"We call what he picks, we just have to get better," Silver said Monday while relaying his conversation with Arians on "The Aftermath."

Byron Leftwich is the offensive coordinator for Tampa Bay, and Arians also has plenty of experience calling plays. But the second-year head coach said Brady has been choosing what gets called during the week, in the huddle, and at the line of scrimmage.

[BucsNBills]

@Doctor , you are completely manufacturing this “Brady was the primary gameplanner/play-caller.”

What is your evidence of that? What receipts do you have whatsoever to support this assertion?

Also
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesco ... 061744/amp

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers have allowed quarterback Tom Brady to call the offensive plays for weeks, head coach Bruce Arians told NFL Network's Michael Silver.

"We call what he picks, we just have to get better," Silver said Monday while relaying his conversation with Arians on "The Aftermath."

Byron Leftwich is the offensive coordinator for Tampa Bay, and Arians also has plenty of experience calling plays. But the second-year head coach said Brady has been choosing what gets called during the week, in the huddle, and at the line of scrimmage.

Arians is just doing damage control for his crony hire. Nothing more.

[Jonny]

Someone else probably already shared this, but it is a travesty if this is what Brady had to deal with. Not only did the cowboys manage an amazing pass rush, they somehow managed to cover our talented WRs in this high flying offensive scheme with some backup DBs. Every positive play came with so much struggle, no wonder it was hard to watch.

[Doctor]

Also
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesco ... 061744/amp

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers have allowed quarterback Tom Brady to call the offensive plays for weeks, head coach Bruce Arians told NFL Network's Michael Silver.

"We call what he picks, we just have to get better," Silver said Monday while relaying his conversation with Arians on "The Aftermath."

Byron Leftwich is the offensive coordinator for Tampa Bay, and Arians also has plenty of experience calling plays. But the second-year head coach said Brady has been choosing what gets called during the week, in the huddle, and at the line of scrimmage.

Arians is just doing damage control for his crony hire. Nothing more.

Its from 2 years ago but sure