Walk the Plank- Saints

[King Bootz]

Lot of Dirk Koetter "let's not hurt their feelings" vibe on people upset over AWJ eating a W. Winston did it last year when they crushed us (and he didn't play at all) in RJS, so I have no problem with him doing it yesterday. Clearly the league/refs didn't have a problem with it either as there was no flag. Where's Pete to call everybody little nancies when you need him?

Fundamental difference in mocking a team for blowing a big lead in the Super Bowl and mocking a player who suffered a season ending injury. That ain't a good look no matter how you try to swing it and if you're actually equating those 2 things that speaks volumes. And not in a good way.

[Redrum]

Love Winfield and wish we had more players like him. Maybe if we did we wouldn't get bullied by the Saints every time we play them.

[IronDog]

Lot of Dirk Koetter "let's not hurt their feelings" vibe on people upset over AWJ eating a W. Winston did it last year when they crushed us (and he didn't play at all) in RJS, so I have no problem with him doing it yesterday. Clearly the league/refs didn't have a problem with it either as there was no flag. Where's Pete to call everybody little nancies when you need him?

Fundamental difference in mocking a team for blowing a big lead in the Super Bowl and mocking a player who suffered a season ending injury. That ain't a good look no matter how you try to swing it and if you're actually equating those 2 things that speaks volumes. And not in a good way.

Are you seriously trying to say that AWJ was mimicking JW's actions last year, similar to the phone call and Dueces by Hill last year, and was doing because JW was injured? Even for you, that is stretching.

[uscbucsfan]

Fundamental difference in mocking a team for blowing a big lead in the Super Bowl and mocking a player who suffered a season ending injury. That ain't a good look no matter how you try to swing it and if you're actually equating those 2 things that speaks volumes. And not in a good way.

Are you seriously trying to say that AWJ was mimicking JW's actions last year, similar to the phone call and Dueces by Hill last year, and was doing because JW was injured? Even for you, that is stretching.

That's how it's being portrayed outside of Tampa. Not saying it's right, but that has been the narrative.

Hence why some have said it was a "bad look", not that he's a piece of shit.

[King Bootz]

Fundamental difference in mocking a team for blowing a big lead in the Super Bowl and mocking a player who suffered a season ending injury. That ain't a good look no matter how you try to swing it and if you're actually equating those 2 things that speaks volumes. And not in a good way.

Are you seriously trying to say that AWJ was mimicking JW's actions last year, similar to the phone call and Dueces by Hill last year, and was doing because JW was injured? Even for you, that is stretching.

Not what I'm saying at all. I said it's a bad look, which it is. You disagee? Do this. Google his name and tell me the 1st 4 articles that come up and then get back to me.

[King Bootz]

Are you seriously trying to say that AWJ was mimicking JW's actions last year, similar to the phone call and Dueces by Hill last year, and was doing because JW was injured? Even for you, that is stretching.

That's how it's being portrayed outside of Tampa. Not saying it's right, but that has been the narrative.

Hence why some have said it was a "bad look", not that he's a piece of shit.

Exactly. He doesn't get an "atta boy!" and a pat on the ass for that. It's distasteful. The media is kinda letting him have it as well. But that doesn't mean he's public enemy #1 either.

[uscbucsfan]

That's how it's being portrayed outside of Tampa. Not saying it's right, but that has been the narrative.

Hence why some have said it was a "bad look", not that he's a piece of shit.

Exactly. He doesn't get an "atta boy!" and a pat on the ass for that. It's distasteful. The media is kinda letting him have it as well.

Ya, I'm not upset about it personally, but to not understand mocking the thing that is only associated to Jameis Winston, not the Saints, after Winston sustains a serious injury is going to be negatively received is idiotic.

[Nobody]

* All 3 Brady TOs we’re on him (you have to climb the pocket on that “sack fumble”) + missed Mike over the top early.

* Devin White (in every way; penalties, run fits, tackling/pursuit angles, coverage).

* JTS and JPP in rush lanes and contain on QB scrambles.

* Ghoslton and officials on the Winfield Int play. Clearly a RtP penalty on Gholston but obviously a Hands to the Face and/or Facemask against Gholston.

* Cockrell and Desir both had bad games.

However, that D Holding in Cockrell was abysmal. You call that and you better call every contact down the field ever. NFL games would be debilitated by the # of flags on the field. The gamestate could never progress because it would be a perpetual loop of flags in the passing game.

Don’t confuse Illegal Contact (defender INITIATING competitive advantage gaining contact beyond 5 yards…you can maintain contact forever after 5 yards so long as it’s initiated within 5 yards; if there is grabbing and obstructing, particularly ag the top of the stem, that inordinately impedes an eligible player, then it becomes Holding) with Defensive Holding. They aren’t the same and it was neither of those as a penalty.

* Bowles for too much blizting and too much Man. It’s weird how we do the inverse of what you would think we would be doing so often. People that can scramble but struggle processing or aren’t prepared; give them a lot of looks/disguises/rotations + play Zone/Rob + drop 7 or even 8).

* Outcoached (again by Payton). And Gronk shouldn’t have seen the field. Begging for a setback. In 2021, we’re seeing the expected regression to the mean of injuries and Gronk’s injury propensity is a big part of that.

[Dread]

I didn't view what AWJ did as mocking 'an injured player'. To phrase it that way seems like forcing a dramatic headline.

AWJ was mocking Jameis b/c Winston mocked us (and himself) last year after they beat us 38-3 on SNF.

Just b/c Jameis had left the game injured doesn't mean much to me. It's not like AWJ was limping while doing it, now that would be a bad look

[acmillis]

I didn't view what AWJ did as mocking 'an injured player'. To phrase it that way seems like forcing a dramatic headline.

AWJ was mocking Jameis b/c Winston mocked us (and himself) last year after they beat us 38-3 on SNF.

Just b/c Jameis had left the game injured doesn't mean much to me. It's not like AWJ was limping while doing it, now that would be a bad look

This is where I’m at

[Dread]

* All 3 Brady TOs we’re on him (you have to climb the pocket on that “sack fumble”) + missed Mike over the top early.

* Devin White (in every way; penalties, run fits, tackling/pursuit angles, coverage).

* JTS and JPP in rush lanes and contain on QB scrambles.

* Ghoslton and officials on the Winfield Int play. Clearly a RtP penalty on Gholston but obviously a Hands to the Face and/or Facemask against Gholston.

* Cockrell and Desir both had bad games.

However, that D Holding in Cockrell was abysmal. You call that and you better call every contact down the field ever. NFL games would be debilitated by the # of flags on the field. The gamestate could never progress because it would be a perpetual loop of flags in the passing game.

Don’t confuse Illegal Contact (defender INITIATING competitive advantage gaining contact beyond 5 yards…you can maintain contact forever after 5 yards so long as it’s initiated within 5 yards; if there is grabbing and obstructing, particularly ag the top of the stem, that inordinately impedes an eligible player, then it becomes Holding) with Defensive Holding. They aren’t the same and it was neither of those as a penalty.

* Bowles for too much blizting and too much Man. It’s weird how we do the inverse of what you would think we would be doing so often. People that can scramble but struggle processing or aren’t prepared; give them a lot of looks/disguises/rotations + play Zone/Rob + drop 7 or even 8).

* Outcoached (again by Payton). And Gronk shouldn’t have seen the field. Begging for a setback. In 2021, we’re seeing the expected regression to the mean of injuries and Gronk’s injury propensity is a big part of that.

That defensive holding on Cockrell was tough. It was 3rd down and to call a penalty in that situation of the game it better be obvious and it certainly wasn't. It should've been 4th and 5 at the 33yd line to where their new kicker has to make 50yd FG to take the lead w/ 2:40 left in the game.

Not that we still didn't have a chance to win the game, but that was a bad call.

Hopefully SMB and CD3 are back after the bye and the days of watching Cockrell look outmatched are over.

[acmillis]

* All 3 Brady TOs we’re on him (you have to climb the pocket on that “sack fumble”) + missed Mike over the top early.

* Devin White (in every way; penalties, run fits, tackling/pursuit angles, coverage).

* JTS and JPP in rush lanes and contain on QB scrambles.

* Ghoslton and officials on the Winfield Int play. Clearly a RtP penalty on Gholston but obviously a Hands to the Face and/or Facemask against Gholston.

* Cockrell and Desir both had bad games.

However, that D Holding in Cockrell was abysmal. You call that and you better call every contact down the field ever. NFL games would be debilitated by the # of flags on the field. The gamestate could never progress because it would be a perpetual loop of flags in the passing game.

Don’t confuse Illegal Contact (defender INITIATING competitive advantage gaining contact beyond 5 yards…you can maintain contact forever after 5 yards so long as it’s initiated within 5 yards; if there is grabbing and obstructing, particularly ag the top of the stem, that inordinately impedes an eligible player, then it becomes Holding) with Defensive Holding. They aren’t the same and it was neither of those as a penalty.

* Bowles for too much blizting and too much Man. It’s weird how we do the inverse of what you would think we would be doing so often. People that can scramble but struggle processing or aren’t prepared; give them a lot of looks/disguises/rotations + play Zone/Rob + drop 7 or even 8).

* Outcoached (again by Payton). And Gronk shouldn’t have seen the field. Begging for a setback. In 2021, we’re seeing the expected regression to the mean of injuries and Gronk’s injury propensity is a big part of that.

That defensive holding on Cockrell was tough. It was 3rd down and to call a penalty in that situation of the game it better be obvious and it certainly wasn't. It should've been 4th and 5 at the 33yd line to where their new kicker has to make 50yd FG to take the lead w/ 2:40 left in the game.

Not that we still didn't have a chance to win the game, but that was a bad call.

Hopefully SMB and CD3 are back after the bye and the days of watching Cockrell look outmatched are over.

Disagree. Cock was holding him at least 10 yards down the field… easy call

[Nobody]

@acmillis

There is a huge gaping chasm between legitimate Defensive Holding and run-of-the-mill maintaining connection with a receiver downfield on a Vert.

Even if you feel Cockrell’s contact was just north of run-of-the-mill (it wasn’t), I don’t see how you (or anyone) could feel that was flag-worthy.

If that was flag-worthy then just shut down the nfl because the rules will have rendered the game unplayable.

I’ll pull the All-22 and link GIFs between that and other contact that wasn’t called. You tell me the difference.

[acmillis]

@acmillis

There is a huge gaping chasm between legitimate Defensive Holding and run-of-the-mill maintaining connection with a receiver downfield on a Vert.

Even if you feel Cockrell’s contact was just north of run-of-the-mill (it wasn’t), I don’t see how you (or anyone) could feel that was flag-worthy.

If that was flag-worthy then just shut down the nfl because the rules will have rendered the game unplayable.

I’ll pull the All-22 and link GIFs between that and other contact that wasn’t called. You tell me the difference.

I’d appreciate the gifs as I hold steady to my opinion on this one.

[King Bootz]

I love how every week we’re somehow screwed over by the refs but we ourselves never commit penalties outside of the one’s we’re called for. We’ve got to be the most disciplined team in football to never commit penalties unless they are called….And even when they are called, half of them are “Bullshit”

[Nobody]

@acmillis

There is a huge gaping chasm between legitimate Defensive Holding and run-of-the-mill maintaining connection with a receiver downfield on a Vert.

Even if you feel Cockrell’s contact was just north of run-of-the-mill (it wasn’t), I don’t see how you (or anyone) could feel that was flag-worthy.

If that was flag-worthy then just shut down the nfl because the rules will have rendered the game unplayable.

I’ll pull the All-22 and link GIFs between that and other contact that wasn’t called. You tell me the difference.

I’d appreciate the gifs as I hold steady to my opinion on this one.

So this is earlier in the game. You're going to see Desir over the inside WR on the top Doubles. Hand in the chest on the jam to reroute and stays connected for 4 yards. This is not Defensive Holding (nor was it called).

chrome-capture (7).gif

Same exact technique later in the game. Press Jam hand in the chest and stays connected for 12 yards.

chrome-capture (12).gif

No one is beat and grabbing to mitigate their loss. No clothesline or hands clamped outside of the frame to obstruct, no grab no pull no tug when the break is occurring away from your leverage (eg you're outside leverage and its an in-cutting route). Just good, physical CBing. And no Defensive Holding is called.

Alright, because MB-limited, I'm going to start a new post and show illegal CB (multiple on the same play).

[Nobody]

Below are two examples of illegal CBing on the exact same play.

chrome-capture (4).gif

Illegal Contact (contact initiated well beyond 5 yards) and Defensive Holding against Godwin. The defender had lost at the top of the route and obviously grabbed and pulled to prevent the loss.

HOLDING AGAINST CG.png

Holding against TJ's vertical push. You can clearly see the CB's hand clamped on the outside of the shoulder pad from outside leverage, thus preventing the vertical push of the route via Defensive Holding.

CGJ DH.png

Hand position, defender leverage, route leverage, grabbing, yanking. All of these things matter to Defensive Holding.

[Nobody]

Now here is Cockrell's.

Outside leverage defender against an outside breaking route (Corner). Hand in the middle of the frame. No grab, no pull, no yank at the top of the route. Feet constantly moving. Never lost leverage vertically or horizontally against the route.

Notice the WR. Not asking for DH, not expecting DH. In the modern NFL, even if there is no whiff of a DH/DPI on a play, you routinely see WR freak out for a call (particularly in key moments). The reason he did not? Because it wasn't Defensive Holding and he knew it.

chrome-capture (14).gif

Inconsistency and arbitrariness in calling the defensive backfield is probably my biggest pet peeve with the modern NFL (partially because I was a defensive back and partially because of the huge referee signal it imprints on an NFL game...its like the 1-1 call in baseball...individual calls/missed calls are big and the accretion of them even bigger). This crap needs to get cleaned up.

If Cockrell's call was a foul here then everything else you've seen above is a foul also.

[acmillis]

The LOS is the 33, and Cockrell is contacting him (and changing his path, IMO) through the 15 yard line. I don't see how that isn't a foul. I'm not arguing that some of the other GIFS you posted aren't similar, but just because one is/not called, doesn't mean that the others should/not be.

Just my .02.

[King Bootz]

The LOS is the 33, and Cockrell is contacting him (and changing his path, IMO) through the 15 yard line. I don't see how that isn't a foul. I'm not arguing that some of the other GIFS you posted aren't similar, but just because one is/not called, doesn't mean that the others should/not be.

Just my .02.

It is a foul. We lost so people are going to rationalize in their minds how the refs screwed us out of a win. You'll see no mention of OJ Howard grabbing that DBs facemask on his catch and run. See no mention of Donovan Smith mugging Davenport for most of the game. Because people convince themselves that we don't commit penalties that aren't called.

[Dread]

I love how every week we’re somehow screwed over by the refs but we ourselves never commit penalties outside of the one’s we’re called for. We’ve got to be the most disciplined team in football to never commit penalties unless they are called….And even when they are called, half of them are “Bullshit”

[Nobody]

The LOS is the 33, and Cockrell is contacting him (and changing his path, IMO) through the 15 yard line. I don't see how that isn't a foul. I'm not arguing that some of the other GIFS you posted aren't similar, but just because one is/not called, doesn't mean that the others should/not be.

Just my .02.

Length of contact doesn't make a call defensive holding. You can jam a defender at the line of scrimmage and maintain contact 40 yards down the field. It happens all the time.

Length of contact with an eligible player is not a part of the equation.

Illegal Contact is when you initiate obstructing contact beyond 5 yards.

Defensive Holding is when you're out of position (leverage loss or flat-footed and you're about to lose vertically) and you grab across the body/shoulder pad (eg not center mass...and certainly not center mass when your leverage isn't threatened...again, outside leverage vs Corner route), grab the shoulder pad and yank/hold/pull...in/all in order to negate the competitive advantage you've lost.

Cockrell never lost a competitive advantage. Cockrell never committed anything that is consistent with Defensive Holding. Its not a foul.

The NFL has an incompetent officiating problem and its most egregious on the back end of plays. It has to get cleaned up.

[King Bootz]

I love how every week we’re somehow screwed over by the refs but we ourselves never commit penalties outside of the one’s we’re called for. We’ve got to be the most disciplined team in football to never commit penalties unless they are called….And even when they are called, half of them are “Bullshit”

Thank you for confirming how whiny our fans are.

I mean what exactly is your position though? You screaming conspiracy? What's the point here?

[uscbucsfan]

Defensive Holding is when you're out of position (leverage loss or flat-footed and you're about to lose vertically) and you grab across the body/shoulder pad (eg not center mass...and certainly not center mass when your leverage isn't threatened...again, outside leverage vs Corner route), grab the shoulder pad and yank/hold/pull...in/all in order to negate the competitive advantage you've lost.

That's not the actual rulebook definition of defensive holding, though....

ARTICLE 6. DEFENSIVE HOLDING
It is defensive holding if a player grasps an eligible offensive player (or his jersey) with his hands, or extends an arm or arms to cut off or encircle him. See 12-1-6.

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nf ... e-holding/

You seem to have very strict interpretations of rules and get frustrated when they aren't called in the way you perceive them. There's nothing in the rule about losing competitive advantage.

While I agree the actual definition would make the game unwatchable, yours is...yours, not the NFL's version of the rule.

[Nobody]

Come on @uscbucsfan .

Like you said, that definition is so nebulous that it basically leaves up the entirety of defender/eligible player relationship to the subjective in-fill of the ref. That language is so obtuse that it requires higher resolution language to clean it up.

What I wrote is how it is attempted to be called in real time on the field. I've talked to officials about this aplenty in the past. That is basically the explanation you'll get from them. They'll give you specific examples of it. They won't cite that unenforceable nonsense above.

Its about leverage (vertically and horizontally) overall but particularly at the top of the route (where the overwhelming amount of DH happens and is called), defender to eligible player orientation, is there a grab/pull/tank/turn, and where hand placement is relative to both parties (and where both parties are trying to go).

[uscbucsfan]

Come on @uscbucsfan .

Like you said, that definition is so nebulous that it basically leaves up the entirety of defender/eligible player relationship to the subjective in-fill of the ref. That language is so obtuse that it requires higher resolution language to clean it up.

What I wrote is how it is attempted to be called in real time on the field. I've talked to officials about this aplenty in the past. That is basically the explanation you'll get from them. They'll give you specific examples of it. They won't cite that unenforceable nonsense above.

Its about leverage (vertically and horizontally) overall but particularly at the top of the route (where the overwhelming amount of DH happens and is called), defender to eligible player orientation, and where hand placement is relative to both parties (and where both parties are trying to go).

That's the issue. What you've been told is anecdotal. It's obviously not shared by all officials and the rule is absolutely vague, which was my point in responding to you.

When networks hire ex-officials, they aren't talking about the stuff that you are, which means it's not as widely accepted as you think it is and why we have 100 different ways games are called.

I'm agreeing there's an issue, but it's not that they are making bad calls, but the rule is so vague....also, what you wrote is not the rule...

[Nobody]

Come on @uscbucsfan .

Like you said, that definition is so nebulous that it basically leaves up the entirety of defender/eligible player relationship to the subjective in-fill of the ref. That language is so obtuse that it requires higher resolution language to clean it up.

What I wrote is how it is attempted to be called in real time on the field. I've talked to officials about this aplenty in the past. That is basically the explanation you'll get from them. They'll give you specific examples of it. They won't cite that unenforceable nonsense above.

Its about leverage (vertically and horizontally) overall but particularly at the top of the route (where the overwhelming amount of DH happens and is called), defender to eligible player orientation, and where hand placement is relative to both parties (and where both parties are trying to go).

That's the issue. What you've been told is anecdotal. It's obviously not shared by all officials and the rule is absolutely vague, which was my point in responding to you.

When networks hire ex-officials, they aren't talking about the stuff that you are, which means it's not as widely accepted as you think it is and why we have 100 different ways games are called.

I'm agreeing there's an issue, but it's not that they are making bad calls, but the rule is so vague....also, what you wrote is not the rule...

I'm not saying "what I wrote is the rule" (which should be clear). Its basically the actual forensic handling of the call.

If we can't agree on that, at least we can agree that its presently unenforceable in any way that isn't completely arbitrary. If I told any ex-player, ex-official, or just layman fan that, out of the above, only one would be penalized and Cockrell's would be the one called Defensive Holding...I would hope...collectively they would lobby the NFL to clean up their incompetent, unenforceable refereeing of the defensive backfield.

[uscbucsfan]

That's the issue. What you've been told is anecdotal. It's obviously not shared by all officials and the rule is absolutely vague, which was my point in responding to you.

When networks hire ex-officials, they aren't talking about the stuff that you are, which means it's not as widely accepted as you think it is and why we have 100 different ways games are called.

I'm agreeing there's an issue, but it's not that they are making bad calls, but the rule is so vague....also, what you wrote is not the rule...

I'm not saying "what I wrote is the rule" (which should be clear). Its basically the actual forensic handling of the call.

If we can't agree on that, at least we can agree that its presently unenforceable in any way that isn't completely arbitrary. If I told any ex-player, ex-official, or just layman fan that, out of the above, only one would be penalized and Cockrell's would be the one called Defensive Holding...I would hope...collectively they would lobby the NFL to clean up their incompetent, unenforceable refereeing of the defensive backfield.

I don't like the call, but it's not wrong per the rule.

Same with the 2 roughing the passer hits...or most of the calls in the game.

I think the issue is that they aren't consistent and that is because there are real-world and there are obviously different interpretations of the rule.

[kaimaru]

That's the issue. What you've been told is anecdotal. It's obviously not shared by all officials and the rule is absolutely vague, which was my point in responding to you.

When networks hire ex-officials, they aren't talking about the stuff that you are, which means it's not as widely accepted as you think it is and why we have 100 different ways games are called.

I'm agreeing there's an issue, but it's not that they are making bad calls, but the rule is so vague....also, what you wrote is not the rule...

I'm not saying "what I wrote is the rule" (which should be clear). Its basically the actual forensic handling of the call.

If we can't agree on that, at least we can agree that its presently unenforceable in any way that isn't completely arbitrary. If I told any ex-player, ex-official, or just layman fan that, out of the above, only one would be penalized and Cockrell's would be the one called Defensive Holding...I would hope...collectively they would lobby the NFL to clean up their incompetent, unenforceable refereeing of the defensive backfield.

Since there are at max 16 games being played any week, having 9 referees retiring in the last 10 years is significant. Maybe that is the reason for the inconsistency? Walt Anderson, Mike Carey, Walt Coleman, Ed Hochuli, Terry McAulay, Pete Morelli, Alberto Riveron, Gene Steratore, and Jeff Triplette is a long list. Then again, coaches knows the refs tendencies.

“Well, you know, this was the one that was the most disappointing,” Arians began. “We do a scouting report on who’s calling the game every week. This referee is very, very protective of the quarterback. They lead the league in roughing the passer penalties and we committed obvious penalties."

So having multiple RtP penalties is ridiculous.

[Nobody]

Good post @kaimaru .

On the subject, I have waaaaaaaaay less of an issue with RtP calls. Generally speaking, they are much more clear and much more consistently called. Now I’m not saying I love every aspect of the paradigm (eg the rules should be written where significant force is a factor in blows to the head…and that is easily enough inferred).

Defensive backfield penalties “success rate” though (both called and missed) is horrendous across the league. They’re borderline arbitrary in their adjudication. And the stakes are way way way too high for that as a single 3rd down call missed (either way) can have profound implications on the gamestate and ripple forward in time to be major in trajectory impactors.

And the reality is, probably every NFL game has more than a dozen missed defensive backfield calls with probably 2-4 being huge in terms of game outcomes.

[kaimaru]

Good post @kaimaru .

On the subject, I have waaaaaaaaay less of an issue with RtP calls. Generally speaking, they are much more clear and much more consistently called. Now I’m not saying I love every aspect of the paradigm (eg the rules should be written where significant force is a factor in blows to the head…and that is easily enough inferred).

Defensive backfield penalties “success rate” though (both called and missed) is horrendous across the league. They’re borderline arbitrary in their adjudication. And the stakes are way way way too high for that as a single 3rd down call missed (either way) can have profound implications on the gamestate and ripple forward in time to be major in trajectory impactors.

And the reality is, probably every NFL game has more than a dozen missed defensive backfield calls with probably 2-4 being huge in terms of game outcomes.

I was saying maybe the inconsistency is due to the change over. Look, I understand pass interference is subjective to interpretation. What is causing these inconsistency in your opinion. I mean 7 referees with 7 or less years of experience? Do officiating teams change every year? If so, maybe that is part of the problem?

[Nobody]

Good post @kaimaru .

On the subject, I have waaaaaaaaay less of an issue with RtP calls. Generally speaking, they are much more clear and much more consistently called. Now I’m not saying I love every aspect of the paradigm (eg the rules should be written where significant force is a factor in blows to the head…and that is easily enough inferred).

Defensive backfield penalties “success rate” though (both called and missed) is horrendous across the league. They’re borderline arbitrary in their adjudication. And the stakes are way way way too high for that as a single 3rd down call missed (either way) can have profound implications on the gamestate and ripple forward in time to be major in trajectory impactors.

And the reality is, probably every NFL game has more than a dozen missed defensive backfield calls with probably 2-4 being huge in terms of game outcomes.

I was saying maybe the inconsistency is due to the change over. Look, I understand pass interference is subjective to interpretation. What is causing these inconsistency in your opinion. I mean 7 referees with 7 or less years of experience? Do officiating teams change every year? If so, maybe that is part of the problem?

Combo of that + the rules have changed so aggressively in such a short interval + the DPI and DH calls (a) have too much subjectivity embedded in them and (b) that stakes are just too damn high. I'm not convinced that they were called well at any point in the last 7 years or so since all of the defensive backfield play become such a huge point of emphasis (and started to get called much more aggressively).

Given (a) and (b), if I was NFL rules committee, I would very seriously consider removing the automatic 1st down component. Make DH and Illegal Contact 5 yards (or half the distance to the goal) and repeat the down (if the 5 isn't enough for a 1st down). That is already enormously punishing. Automatic 1st down is just brutal for those two penalties. An offensive team can get bailed out (and they do) on 3rd and long by a ticky-tack call that is south of 50/50 or worse (and not enforced more than half the time). Its just bad all around.

My guess is they would like to do something like this, but they would have to come up for a solve for inside of the 10 as there the incentive structures would align for defenses to get stupidly physical with eligibles (because it isn't an auto 1st down). But come on. Its 2021. Humankind have been designing well-oiled, functional rulesets for games for a hell of a long time. I'm certain the NFL could throw some coin at it so qualified folks could rub a few brain cells together to come up with a trivial solve.

As of right now, the NFL ruleset is an absolute mess (by the slow creep of lack of forethought meeting inept design).

[MJW]

We've reached a point where I don't celebrate anything that happens until at least 30 seconds after the play. That's good for the game, right? Fans being unable to have spontaneous reactions to things that happen?

[Rocker]

We've reached a point where I don't celebrate anything that happens until at least 30 seconds after the play. That's good for the game, right? Fans being unable to have spontaneous reactions to things that happen?

I'm getting real close to figuring out your Reddit handle.

[MJW]

We've reached a point where I don't celebrate anything that happens until at least 30 seconds after the play. That's good for the game, right? Fans being unable to have spontaneous reactions to things that happen?

I'm getting real close to figuring out your Reddit handle.

LOL, I hate to disappoint, but I'm not on Reddit (never quite figured it out.) But whoever shares the sentiment is welcome at my table.

Anyway, the pendulum was always going to swing too far. The league is never going to be the 70s again, and hopefully, that means no more retired players shitting themselves and dying at 50. But it's over-officiated now. I was big on the QB safety bandwagon for a lot of reasons, but the roughing calls are out of control (I doubt anyone would argue too hard the other way.) I like big passes as much as any fan, but the DBs are essentially powerless to stop good throws without drawing flags, no matter how sound their coverage. The "lowering the helmet" rules makes a world of sense on paper, but now defenders are at constant risk for the flag even if they do everything the NFL wants, just because the ballcarrier can lower himself at the last second into the path of the helmet. So on and so forth. And maybe it's me, but the late flags have been worse than ever this season. If a ref isn't throwing the flag for PI or for a hold a split-second after the infraction, why is he throwing it all? Is he being talked into it? Is he making the call based on his already fading mental picture? Either way, it's no fun constantly waiting for the flags.

The NFL is a great product, but this has been the least I've enjoyed it that I can remember.