NFL Head Coach Hot Seat

[kaimaru]

Because the last Miami HC who was a "one-hop" retread was such a great decision for the Jets. I don't like any "one-hop." Maybe some time to reflect on what you could have done better instead of going into re-evaluating a whole team for free agency and the draft.

Brian Flores is not Adam Gase. He didn't deserve to lose his job.

I was being sarcastic comparing them. I still prefer my next HC have a time to reflect on what went wrong and what went right than jumping immediately into player evaluation. That said, Ross did him wrong.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... an-flores/

[uscbucsfan]

A lot of stuff coming out about Flores.

From getting Tua tested for steroids 4 straight times, to players not liking him, to the reason why he went through 6 coordinators in his time is because he treats people like shit.

Seems like damage control from the Dolphins, outside from maybe the Tua stuff. He seemingly hated Tua , but we'll see if anything is substantiated.

[King Bootz]

[Primeminister]

A lot of stuff coming out about Flores.

From getting Tua tested for steroids 4 straight times, to players not liking him, to the reason why he went through 6 coordinators in his time is because he treats people like shit.

Seems like damage control from the Dolphins, outside from maybe the Tua stuff. He seemingly hated Tua , but we'll see if anything is substantiated.

Coaches can’t test players for steroids can they? That sounds like something the NFLPA would be all over. Honestly this looks like spin because the majority opinion is the Dolphins fucked.

[MJW]

A lot of stuff coming out about Flores.

From getting Tua tested for steroids 4 straight times, to players not liking him, to the reason why he went through 6 coordinators in his time is because he treats people like shit.

Seems like damage control from the Dolphins, outside from maybe the Tua stuff. He seemingly hated Tua , but we'll see if anything is substantiated.

Not sure if I buy this.

I've read Flores and Ross didn't see eye-to-eye. Ross wanted Watson, Flores didn't want the headache. Flores wanted Herbert, Chris Grier overruled him. Stuff like that. It sounds like Brian Flores knows what he wants his organization to look like. I consider that a good thing.

Owners want it both ways. They want a "culture changing" coach to mold the organization, but they also want a coach who'll do what he's told. This might be the simple difference between good owners and bad owners. Good owners subsume their own egos and let coaches lead. Bad owners hire yes-men and undermine.

[uscbucsfan]

A lot of stuff coming out about Flores.

From getting Tua tested for steroids 4 straight times, to players not liking him, to the reason why he went through 6 coordinators in his time is because he treats people like shit.

Seems like damage control from the Dolphins, outside from maybe the Tua stuff. He seemingly hated Tua , but we'll see if anything is substantiated.

Coaches can’t test players for steroids can they? That sounds like something the NFLPA would be all over. Honestly this looks like spin because the majority opinion is the Dolphins fucked.

Apparently it was a big deal earlier, but I missed it. Tua was tested 4 straight times and his trainer claimed that another coach, who Flores later fired, was making the request. Tua and Flores yelled at each other about it in the locker room. That's the "other shit that coach Flo was on" that Kenny Stills mentioned.

It sounds like a coach had a hunch, mentioned to Tua's trainer and started stuff. There's a reporter, Ware I think?, out of Miami "breaking" a lot of this.

[nybf]

Yeah, about him. He was named GM in 2018. What was his position with the Giants in 2017?

Gettleman doesn't exactly fit the pipeline of that model. But he spent 14 years in the Giants organization prior to his short stint as Panthers GM. So while not a direct promotion, he cut his teeth in the Giants organization.

So the last time they hired a GM from outside the org was their last GM. Got it.

[King Bootz]

What could you possibly be evaluating by interviewing that many candidates in such a short period of time?

[MJW]

What could you possibly be evaluating by interviewing that many candidates in such a short period of time?

The Jags make me sad because they remind me so much of the 80s Bucs, all the time. They're just ridiculous. I wish them luck.

[King Bootz]

Speaking of shit show organizations...

[Phantom]

Speaking of shit show organizations...

Yeah, no Watson, no offense etc etc.. 4-13 is pretty good for first year coach with bno superstars roster.


Kinda strange

[kaimaru]

A lot of stuff coming out about Flores.

From getting Tua tested for steroids 4 straight times, to players not liking him, to the reason why he went through 6 coordinators in his time is because he treats people like shit.

Seems like damage control from the Dolphins, outside from maybe the Tua stuff. He seemingly hated Tua , but we'll see if anything is substantiated.

Yeah, I just read more stuff on the firing. He was even verbally abusing to the weekly league call to officiating. He pushed for more power like Gase. He wanted Burrow not Tua. Well that was clear in 2020. He verbally abused a player on the sideline that he was crying. Yikes!

[Snake]

I can’t fault a guy for being mad about wanting Burrow and Herbert and ending up with Tua. Lol.

I don’t hate Tua, but there’s levels to this and it’s clear whose on which levels thus far.

[MJW]

Speaking of shit show organizations...

What a joke. They hire a guy with zero chance to be successful in that situation, then he arguably overachieves winning 4 games (after losing his starting QB for most of the year, on top of everything else.) And they fire him anyway, probably so they can hire some Belichick assistant they knew from back in the day. Garbage organization. I'm glad Culley made himself some money at least.

[MJW]

Also, y'all know me, I'm no SJW. But it's a bad look for a league that's 75% black to have 1 black head coach for 32 teams. Not only that, but despite the fact the guy has never had a losing season, his fans fantasize about firing him more than John Hinkley thinks about Jodie Foster.

[King Bootz]

Being black myself, I don't understand the "white perspective". Like do people really believe that NFL owners don't take race into consideration when making hirings/firings of HCs? Maybe not intentionally but I assume most people feel comfortable with people who look like them. The main argument I hear is "people are hired based on their resume"......Gonna have to convince me of that. I don't buy that Joe Judge or Brandon Staley have better resumes than Leslie Frazier or Todd Bowles or Eric Bienemy.

There's definitely a problem and kudos to the NFL for trying to close the gap. But as long as there are people who deny the obvious problem in front of them, this problem won't go away.

[MJW]

Being black myself, I don't understand the "white perspective". Like do people really believe that NFL owners don't take race into consideration when making hirings/firings of HCs? Maybe not intentionally but I assume most people feel comfortable with people who look like them. The main argument I hear is "people are hired based on their resume"......Gonna have to convince me of that. I don't buy that Joe Judge or Brandon Staley have better resumes than Leslie Frazier or Todd Bowles or Eric Bienemy.

There's definitely a problem and kudos to the NFL for trying to close the gap. But as long as there are people who deny the obvious problem in front of them, this problem won't go away.

FWIW, I don't think it's a conspiracy of rich white owners rubbing their hands together and laughing at the idea of hiring black coaches. I don't think it's that at all. I think white coaches have always coached with other white coaches, and then they have white coach kids who coach with other white coach kids, and their white friends have white kids who want spots as graduate assistants, where they start up the ladder to becoming white coaches, etc. All of a sudden, out of every 10 valid candidates, 9 are white, so unless there's a concerted effort to hire black, the math says white coaches will get most of the jobs. And then we're back to the beginning.

It's almost worse, honestly, because it's a lot harder to fix. It's why, while I feel like Arians lays his schtick on a little thick sometimes, I respect the hell out of his effort to give black coaches opportunities. I don't care what one's racial politics are. 1 black coach for 32 jobs is indefensible. 5 would honestly be indefensible IMHO.

[Phantom]

The Texans are targeting former Dolphins coach Brian Flores as their top candidate at this time, according to multiple league sources. He has a strong relationship with Nick Caserio.

About time Texans

[Phantom]

A lot of stuff coming out about Flores.

From getting Tua tested for steroids 4 straight times, to players not liking him, to the reason why he went through 6 coordinators in his time is because he treats people like shit.

Seems like damage control from the Dolphins, outside from maybe the Tua stuff. He seemingly hated Tua , but we'll see if anything is substantiated.

I think it’s about power struggle

[acmillis]

Being black myself, I don't understand the "white perspective". Like do people really believe that NFL owners don't take race into consideration when making hirings/firings of HCs? Maybe not intentionally but I assume most people feel comfortable with people who look like them. The main argument I hear is "people are hired based on their resume"......Gonna have to convince me of that. I don't buy that Joe Judge or Brandon Staley have better resumes than Leslie Frazier or Todd Bowles or Eric Bienemy.

There's definitely a problem and kudos to the NFL for trying to close the gap. But as long as there are people who deny the obvious problem in front of them, this problem won't go away.

How do you feel about the Rooney Rule?

[MJW]

I keep hearing that the Texans are going to hire Flores (like I said...an old New England friend), and that Watson would stay for Flores. While that seems like a net win, I guess I'm curious - how the hell do you bring back Watson at this point, even if he wants to come back after all?

That entire organization...SMDH.

[ATrain]

Being black myself, I don't understand the "white perspective". Like do people really believe that NFL owners don't take race into consideration when making hirings/firings of HCs? Maybe not intentionally but I assume most people feel comfortable with people who look like them. The main argument I hear is "people are hired based on their resume"......Gonna have to convince me of that. I don't buy that Joe Judge or Brandon Staley have better resumes than Leslie Frazier or Todd Bowles or Eric Bienemy.

There's definitely a problem and kudos to the NFL for trying to close the gap. But as long as there are people who deny the obvious problem in front of them, this problem won't go away.

You're going to have to provide proof that owners are specifically not hiring black coaches because of the color of their skin.

Your examples aren't very good either considering both Frazier and Bowles have been hired as HC and both failed. Bienemy has a checkered past and just listening to him speak you can tell he's not a very good interview.

You need to provide conclusive evidence that black coaches are blowing the hair back on owners and GM's during interviews, they recognize that X black coach has winner written all over him, and then decide to arbitrarily hire a less qualified white candidate.

At some point in the leagues history, sure, race played a part. But it's time to let that shit go. The league is all about winning and merit. And if there's a couple of bad apples left with owners, they're in the minority.

How about this for a possibility: The league is mostly black players, yet the country is mostly white, so when white men who want to get into football look at the field, they see coaching as their most likely road to success.

Or how about this one: Until color stops being the focal point of all this, the problem isn't going to go away. Until we stop counting how many coaches are X or Y ethnicity, then real equality will never be obtained.

[Dread]

Being black myself, I don't understand the "white perspective". Like do people really believe that NFL owners don't take race into consideration when making hirings/firings of HCs? Maybe not intentionally but I assume most people feel comfortable with people who look like them.

Perhaps you are more preoccupied with your skin color than others and thus project/assume others must be as well.

NFL Owners want to win and have a respected brand to attract/grow the fanbase and of course make money. But winning is paramount to achieving any of those other goals.

In a league with so much parity where every rule seems to be made with goal of creating more parity if you're making football decisions based on things like things like race you're just limiting the potential success of your franchise.

In addition we're in an era where franchises recieve a social currency for diversity and are championed in the media and public when they have success with minority leadership.

Just look at the Bucs. The Glazers were Trump supporters and have donated and hosted fundraisers for Trump. Idiots in the media have called them racist for that. Yet at the same time since that family took over the Bucs have arguably one of the best track records in the NFL when it comes to hiring black head coaches. And now continuing to promote diversity with women in both the coaching ranks and FO with Jackie Davidson working alongside Mike Greenberg as an assistant to the GM.

My point is I don't believe NFL Owners refuse to hire a person they feel would give them the best chance at success based on that candidates skin color. Yes, shitty white coaches still get hired. But that doesn't mean there was racism involved.

Unfortunately the cancerous idea that wherever there are racial disparities (in outcomes) the reason must be racism has grown more popular and crippled any critical thinking into what are always more nuanced/complex issues (like black HC in the NFL). The obvious flaws in that thinking is that it always only goes one direction.

The #1 reason we haven't seen the Rooney rule have the desired outcome is it never created a larger pool of better black candidates. It just artificially promoted their names in the interview process. Most NFL HCs get their job by establishing a track record of being coordinators on top ranked units, especially offense since that is the trend.

So the current incentives of draft picks for coordinators who get plucked for HC jobs should have a more positive effect. I'd argue it already is when you look at the pool of candidates this offseason already when the new rule is only 1 year old.

If you want to change a behavior of a person/organization you just need to change the incentive structure

[Dread]

In regards to Eric Bienemy, he's paying for the sins of his past when he was a knucklehead like many young men are.

Unfortunately for him his incidents were well documented since he was a popular college football player so it's more difficult to keep those skeletons in the closet.

[Buc2]

In regards to Eric Bienemy, he's paying for the sins of his past when he was a knucklehead like many young men are.

Unfortunately for him his incidents were well documented since he was a popular college football player so it's more difficult to keep those skeletons in the closet.

Sometimes you just have to let the skeletons be exposed. After all, the fallout will eventually subside...sooner rather than later in this social media-obsessed world. So, just do it and get it over with. Then move on satisfied that you made a good hire.

[Snake]

Can’t emphasis enough how different the skills are between coordinating and being a HC. I totally understand if management decides a super competent coordinator doesn’t fit the profile of the HC they’re looking for.

[King Bootz]

Being black myself, I don't understand the "white perspective". Like do people really believe that NFL owners don't take race into consideration when making hirings/firings of HCs? Maybe not intentionally but I assume most people feel comfortable with people who look like them.

Perhaps you are more preoccupied with your skin color than others and thus project/assume others must be as well.

NFL Owners want to win and have a respected brand to attract/grow the fanbase and of course make money. But winning is paramount to achieving any of those other goals.

In a league with so much parity where every rule seems to be made with goal of creating more parity if you're making football decisions based on things like things like race you're just limiting the potential success of your franchise.

In addition we're in an era where franchises recieve a social currency for diversity and are championed in the media and public when they have success with minority leadership.

Just look at the Bucs. The Glazers were Trump supporters and have donated and hosted fundraisers for Trump. Idiots in the media have called them racist for that. Yet at the same time since that family took over the Bucs have arguably one of the best track records in the NFL when it comes to hiring black head coaches. And now continuing to promote diversity with women in both the coaching ranks and FO with Jackie Davidson working alongside Mike Greenberg as an assistant to the GM.

My point is I don't believe NFL Owners refuse to hire a person they feel would give them the best chance at success based on that candidates skin color. Yes, shitty white coaches still get hired. But that doesn't mean there was racism involved.

Unfortunately the cancerous idea that wherever there are racial disparities (in outcomes) the reason must be racism has grown more popular and crippled any critical thinking into what are always more nuanced/complex issues (like black HC in the NFL). The obvious flaws in that thinking is that it always only goes one direction.

The #1 reason we haven't seen the Rooney rule have the desired outcome is it never created a larger pool of better black candidates. It just artificially promoted their names in the interview process. Most NFL HCs get their job by establishing a track record of being coordinators on top ranked units, especially offense since that is the trend.

So the current incentives of draft picks for coordinators who get plucked for HC jobs should have a more positive effect. I'd argue it already is when you look at the pool of candidates this offseason already when the new rule is only 1 year old.

If you want to change a behavior of a person/organization you just need to change the incentive structure

What exactly are you saying then? That if people simply ignore problem that it'll go away?

The fact that incentives had to be used to inspire change is a continuation of the problem and mirrors an issue in this country from nearly 200 years ago. Getting reparations for losing a black coach is a problem.

Additionally, your idea of how most NFL head coaches get their jobs is misguided and flat out wrong. What top unit did Zac Taylor coordinate? He's never been an NFL coordinator. Dan Campbell? Never been a coordinator.. Goes 3-13-1 his 1st year and is praised.. David Culley wins 1 more game and is fired. What about Joe Judge? Special Teams? Kliff Kingsbury? Losing record as a college HC. Brandon Staley? 1 year as a coordinator. Doug Pederson and Matt Nagy both spent 2 years as Andy Reid's OC and got HC jobs. Eric Bienemy comes in, the offense actually does better, produces a league MVP and Super Bowl win and another trip, yet he's been there 3 years and nothing.

If you really think HCs are hired because they coordinate top offenses, come stay at my Kansas oceanside villa.

[King Bootz]

In regards to Eric Bienemy, he's paying for the sins of his past when he was a knucklehead like many young men are.

Unfortunately for him his incidents were well documented since he was a popular college football player so it's more difficult to keep those skeletons in the closet.

If that's the case then teams are proving the point here by even offering him interviews.

What you're saying without saying is that they are simply checking a box. That's part of the problem and highlights the issues I've stated all along.

[BLT]

Because the last Miami HC who was a "one-hop" retread was such a great decision for the Jets. I don't like any "one-hop." Maybe some time to reflect on what you could have done better instead of going into re-evaluating a whole team for free agency and the draft.

Brian Flores is not Adam Gase. He didn't deserve to lose his job.

I was surprised at first to hear Flores was let go too, but then basically everyone in the organization has alluded to him being a complete asshole that can't work with anyone.

[uscbucsfan]

In regards to Eric Bienemy, he's paying for the sins of his past when he was a knucklehead like many young men are.

Unfortunately for him his incidents were well documented since he was a popular college football player so it's more difficult to keep those skeletons in the closet.

If that's the case then teams are proving the point here by even offering him interviews.

What you're saying without saying is that they are simply checking a box. That's part of the problem and highlights the issues I've stated all along.

Bienemy is also apparently horrible in interviews.

The Texans were basically told to hire him by Watson, interviewed him 2 times and then went to Culley...Multiple teams been reported as to having him as their favorite only to not be hired after an interview. Some say it's because Reid has complete control of that offense and play calling and unlike Nagy, Bienemy just doesn't exude that he has a grasp on how to run things.

It's difficult to use race when multiple teams have hired other black coaches after interviewing him. Something is legitimately wrong with him in the process.

[BLT]

In regards to Eric Bienemy, he's paying for the sins of his past when he was a knucklehead like many young men are.

Unfortunately for him his incidents were well documented since he was a popular college football player so it's more difficult to keep those skeletons in the closet.

If that's the case then teams are proving the point here by even offering him interviews.

What you're saying without saying is that they are simply checking a box. That's part of the problem and highlights the issues I've stated all along.

Yes, everyone acknowledges this.

A coaching position opens up and Leslie Frazier is scheduled for an interview within ten minutes.

[King Bootz]

Also, y'all know me, I'm no SJW. But it's a bad look for a league that's 75% black to have 1 black head coach for 32 teams. Not only that, but despite the fact the guy has never had a losing season, his fans fantasize about firing him more than John Hinkley thinks about Jodie Foster.

Furthermore on Pittsburgh, Cowher was and still is beloved there. Despite the fact it took him 5 years to get to the Super Bowl, 14 years to win one, and they had 3 losing seasons under him.

Tomlin meanwhile got to 2 Super Bowls his 1st 4 years and the worst his teams have finished in the division is 3rd.

[uscbucsfan]

If that's the case then teams are proving the point here by even offering him interviews.

What you're saying without saying is that they are simply checking a box. That's part of the problem and highlights the issues I've stated all along.

Yes, everyone acknowledges this.

A coaching position opens up and Leslie Frazier is scheduled for an interview within ten minutes.

It's because they are required to.

When the Raiders were going to hire Gruden, they had to interview a minority candidate first.

Even if Bill Belichick wanted to change jobs and it was obvious that any team would drop everything for him...they'd still have to do a token interview to satisfy the rule.

[King Bootz]

If that's the case then teams are proving the point here by even offering him interviews.

What you're saying without saying is that they are simply checking a box. That's part of the problem and highlights the issues I've stated all along.

Bienemy is also apparently horrible in interviews.

The Texans were basically told to hire him by Watson, interviewed him 2 times and then went to Culley...Multiple teams been reported as to having him as their favorite only to not be hired after an interview. Some say it's because Reid has complete control of that offense and play calling and unlike Nagy, Bienemy just doesn't exude that he has a grasp on how to run things.

It's difficult to use race when multiple teams have hired other black coaches after interviewing him. Something is legitimately wrong with him in the process.

That would be what we call moving the goal posts. It went from coordinating top units to "well he's not the play caller and his interviews don't go well".

If the stars don't align perfectly then it's a no. But that's clearly not the case for everyone.

[King Bootz]

If that's the case then teams are proving the point here by even offering him interviews.

What you're saying without saying is that they are simply checking a box. That's part of the problem and highlights the issues I've stated all along.

Yes, everyone acknowledges this.

A coaching position opens up and Leslie Frazier is scheduled for an interview within ten minutes.

Using the model provided earlier, Frazier has coordinated top defensive units while in Buffalo. If all he's deserving of is an interview to check a box, there's a clear problem with the system.