Man in the Arena: Tom’s Glory.

[Snake]

LeBron
MJ
KAJ
Russell

All have legitimate cases depending on the criteria you find important.

Unsurprisingly, the two most recent players have the most recency bias in their favor and vocal cohorts. In addition to sports leagues that were more matured and popular.

[uscbucsfan]

LeBron
MJ
KAJ
Russell

All have legitimate cases depending on the criteria you find important.

Unsurprisingly, the two most recent players have the most recency bias in their favor and vocal cohorts. In addition to sports leagues that were more matured and popular.

Russell was utterly dominated by Wilt one on one. His team just won more because it was stacked. Wilt averaged like 30 points, 30 rebounds, and 4 blocks on Russell over 94 career head to head games. Wilt held Russell under 10 points on over half the games they played against each other and under 40% shooting. They weren't on the same level athletically.

The more I look at the head to head stats, Wilt completely nullified Russell on D and still dominated offensively. There's no way one can say Russell was a better player. Better team, absolutely and the Celtics were 57 and 37 against Wilt led teams, but Russell kind of sucked when he went up against Wilt.

Neither go to the top of my list due to how shallow the talent was across the league. Magic is above KAJ for me, too, but MJ was on a different level than both KAJ and Magic/Bird.

[Snake]

This smells like an other sports thread in the making…

Nah no one goes there lmao

[uscbucsfan]

This smells like an other sports thread in the making…

Nah no one goes there lmao

Russell doesn't get ranked high by most, despite his crazy amount of rings because of Wilt, not recency bias.

[uscbucsfan]

It's easier to compare H2H greats in basketball than football. Tom is the GOAT QB, but most don't see him as the best QB, but there's GOATs at each position, where they are all lumped together in basketball or any sport where a player can be matched up 1v1.

[Kress]

Meanwhile, as much as I love him, Tiger’s run saw nothing like the talent we see today. Overwhelmingly, you had 1 youthful challenger in Sergio, a Duval collapse, and a late prime Phil/Els/Westwood/Furyk + old guys in DL3, Singh, Monty.

Not exactly the murderers row of youthful talent we see today. Golf was struggling mightily at the time for new talent. “The Tiger Effect” is directly responsible for the avalanche of greatness we see today.

I have no doubt Tiger would have dominated these guys today like he did back then…but lack of viable foils is definitely a thing when talking about GOATs.

The competition was not as strong, but remember that, mid-Tiger, the PGA actively started "Tiger-proofing" the courses. They would literally stack the deck against a single player, setting the course to hamper Tiger's skill set, but he dominated the field anyway.

[uscbucsfan]

Meanwhile, as much as I love him, Tiger’s run saw nothing like the talent we see today. Overwhelmingly, you had 1 youthful challenger in Sergio, a Duval collapse, and a late prime Phil/Els/Westwood/Furyk + old guys in DL3, Singh, Monty.

Not exactly the murderers row of youthful talent we see today. Golf was struggling mightily at the time for new talent. “The Tiger Effect” is directly responsible for the avalanche of greatness we see today.

I have no doubt Tiger would have dominated these guys today like he did back then…but lack of viable foils is definitely a thing when talking about GOATs.

The competition was not as strong, but remember that, mid-Tiger, the PGA actively started "Tiger-proofing" the courses. They would literally stack the deck against a single player, setting the course to hamper Tiger's skill set, but he dominated the field anyway.

He also set course records.

[Nobody]

Yeah, I agree with everything @uscbucsfan has written above (and most of my GOATs aren’t in the 80s and early/mid 90s whether it’s baseball, football, tennis, golf, combat sports, etc…and there is a STRONG case to be made that Gretzky was a one-way player and a hair overrated). It’s just a different deal when all of your fellow players (all-time greats) are deifying you while_you_play them. And the guys that came after him (Allen, Wade, Durant etc) deify Jordan. It’s not confirmation bias of youth. Jordan was just an alien physically and mentally (like Tiger) and he has al the hardware despite playing in a conference in the 80s that featured 3 of the GOAT teams (76ers, Cs, Pistons) and just a dumb amount of all time greats in his era. With teams running 3rd defenders constantly at him and still being unable to prevent him from getting his shot. He was the best offensive player and best defender in the league (both on ball and off ball) for a truly staggering amount of court time. The only two players that were close to that was KAJ and Dream.

On the “Tiger-proof” aspect of things, it was basically becoming a reality that the tour was starting to become filled with big hitters who were routinely hitting wedge into Par 4. Tiger’s obviation of all of the difficult obstacles of The Masters was basically the apex of this.

Ironically, increasing the distance to make up for the increasing gains of tech + training served to Tiger’s advantage, not his detriment. Tiger’s greatest attributes were always (a) his mind/will, (b) his putter, (c) his creativity and ability to get up and down and (d) his long irons.

So basically the course changes put a lot of not-Tiger folks in trouble. Whereas they were having to hit Driver > 6/7, the changes let Tiger go 2 Iron > 8 iron all day long.

It really didn’t matter what they did to the courses in terms of Tiger’s success. He was going to dominate no mater what. But it allowed PGA golf to retain its aesthetics by shutting down the rampant Driver > Wedge that was obviating course design and narrowing the game enormously.

[Kress]

there is a STRONG case to be made that Gretzky was a one-way player and a hair overrated

Really? With all caps, too?

[Nobody]

I still have him as the GOAT because he was just so overwhelming on offense, but if being a one way player means a lot to someone (it does to me), then the case for Orr snd Lemieux becomes a lot more substantial.

Ask yourself this:

“If Gretzky played today with all of the changes, technology, and athletes on the ice (there is no such thing as a goon today…pretty much everyone is a world class skater) to help defense…would his impact be the same?”

I can easily answer “yes” for Lemieux (in fact, he probably has greater impact comparatively).

[King Bootz]

If Rodgers had Brady/Payton/Brees presnap capabilities and Brady's mental makeup, he would be Jordan.

He's a hair below those 3 presnap and he's miles behind Brady in terms of mental makeup (Brady doesn't have a Jay Cutler bone in his body...he's all Jordan and Tiger upstairs...Rodgers has 2 or 3 Jay Cutler bones in his body and that is 2 or 3 too many).

Hmmm gonna have to disagree here. I think you're letting personality flaws cloud your judgement here.

[Nobody]

If Rodgers had Brady/Payton/Brees presnap capabilities and Brady's mental makeup, he would be Jordan.

He's a hair below those 3 presnap and he's miles behind Brady in terms of mental makeup (Brady doesn't have a Jay Cutler bone in his body...he's all Jordan and Tiger upstairs...Rodgers has 2 or 3 Jay Cutler bones in his body and that is 2 or 3 too many).

Hmmm gonna have to disagree here. I think you're letting personality flaws cloud your judgement here.

But when they manifest on the field?

Aloofness and mentally checking out (even if it’s just visible body language) as a leader is devastating to the guys following you and/or looking to you to lead them through trying times.

Rodgers hasn’t done it a ton true enough…but even just a handful of times in key moments creates a disconcerting pall. It impacts the downstream Game Theory of the guys who would be following you.

Disagree?

[Selmon Rules]

Meanwhile, as much as I love him, Tiger’s run saw nothing like the talent we see today. Overwhelmingly, you had 1 youthful challenger in Sergio, a Duval collapse, and a late prime Phil/Els/Westwood/Furyk + old guys in DL3, Singh, Monty.

Not exactly the murderers row of youthful talent we see today. Golf was struggling mightily at the time for new talent. “The Tiger Effect” is directly responsible for the avalanche of greatness we see today.

I have no doubt Tiger would have dominated these guys today like he did back then…but lack of viable foils is definitely a thing when talking about GOATs.

The competition was not as strong, but remember that, mid-Tiger, the PGA actively started "Tiger-proofing" the courses. They would literally stack the deck against a single player, setting the course to hamper Tiger's skill set, but he dominated the field anyway.

Making courses longer did not "Tiger proof" them anyway.... I mean, if you've made it difficult for Tiger, what is it like for the other players??

Want to take away his advantage back in his prime, you'd really have to make the courses so easy the other players couldn't miss either

[uscbucsfan]

The competition was not as strong, but remember that, mid-Tiger, the PGA actively started "Tiger-proofing" the courses. They would literally stack the deck against a single player, setting the course to hamper Tiger's skill set, but he dominated the field anyway.

Making courses longer did not "Tiger proof" them anyway.... I mean, if you've made it difficult for Tiger, what is it like for the other players??

Want to take away his advantage back in his prime, you'd really have to make the courses so easy the other players couldn't miss either

Tiger had a knack for hitting long inaccurate shots when young. A lot of the Tiger proofing put more trees, longer rough, etc. with intentions to level the playing field.

[King Bootz]

Hmmm gonna have to disagree here. I think you're letting personality flaws cloud your judgement here.

But when they manifest on the field?

Aloofness and mentally checking out (even if it’s just visible body language) as a leader is devastating to the guys following you and/or looking to you to lead them through trying times.

Rodgers hasn’t done it a ton true enough…but even just a handful of times in key moments creates a disconcerting pall. It impacts the downstream Game Theory of the guys who would be following you.

Disagree?

Going to guess getting suspended multiple games for modification of game balls doesn't qualify for you as devastating. Nor does cursing out refs or teammates or throwing ipads.

Not trying to change your mind here. It seems made up. But Rodgers having some Cutler in him?? Nah bruh.

[Nobody]

But when they manifest on the field?

Aloofness and mentally checking out (even if it’s just visible body language) as a leader is devastating to the guys following you and/or looking to you to lead them through trying times.

Rodgers hasn’t done it a ton true enough…but even just a handful of times in key moments creates a disconcerting pall. It impacts the downstream Game Theory of the guys who would be following you.

Disagree?

Going to guess getting suspended multiple games for modification of game balls doesn't qualify for you as devastating. Nor does cursing out refs or teammates or throwing ipads.

Not trying to change your mind here. It seems made up. But Rodgers having some Cutler in him?? Nah bruh.

If you've got some powerful lines of evidence that can change my mind...it'll be changed. But I don't see the evidence and I see plenty of it in the other direction.

I'll start with the latter bit:

* No. Cursing out x, y, z and throwing ipads when you have the kind of cache that Brady has does absolutely no work against you. If you don't have that mitigating cache (both in the reality that his teammates all love him on and off the field and in that he's delivered over_and over_and over_and over whether its crunch time in a huge game or putting it on the Jets/Bills for the 11tythousandth time), sure...that can and often will be a problem. But that mitigating cache actually makes all of those things do a 180 from "this guy is an immature jerk" into "this guy wants to win desperately...its just part of the process" land.

* IF there was some sudden drop-off in performance after Deflategate, then yeah...that would support the thesis that Brady having balls minorly deflated was (a) unorthodox for the NFL at the time and (b) it consequentially mattered. The reality is that Brady not only didn't have a drop off, but he went out and put 328 yards and 4 TDs on one of the greatest Pass Defenses of all time and won the super bowl. Then put up the most efficient year QBing he ever had. Then won an MVP. Then won 2 more Super Bowls. And repeatedly putting up stupid stats.


Don't get me wrong. Aaron Rodgers is an incredible player. In terms of physical ability (pocket feel, pocket escape and making plays with his feet, release, ball placement, accuracy, velocity/trajectory on throws that call for it, feel for intermediate and deep throws, throwing off platform and from weird angles), he is without equal in NFL history. The only players that compare in my lifetime are Elway and Mahomes.

Upstairs he's just a hair behind Payton, Brees, Brady.

Leadership-wise/moxie? He's just not in the class of a Brady or a Montana. Honestly, I'll take Mahomes over him in this category. Mahomes is routinely up and exuding belief even when things are going against him. He doesn't isolate himself (dejectedly or defiantly or passive-aggressively) or stand around surly or be passive aggressive with people (either directly or by media proxy). That stuff is infectious. And it goes the other way too. Rodgers doesn't have a lot of these moments but there is enough of them to matter and his ex-teammates coaches call him out on it. "Mercurial" is the nice way to encapsulate this suite of traits.

[BJJ34]

Also… I do believe the Bucs episode is Tuesday. He should be at our Super Bowl according to the storyline of all the other episodes.

[BJJ34]

[Kress]

Episode 11: Reflections on going Back-to-Back in Tampa Bay.....

[Buc2]

Episode 12: Why I decided to come back for 23rd season

[Pirate Life]

Episode 18: Fifty is Nifty

[LynchysKiss]

Episode 69: Pulling a Bob Kraft at Mons Venus

[Nobody]

Apparently a lot of rumors floating around that Brady is possibly leaning toward retirement after the playoffs (surely that chance would be amplified by coaching staff/personnel turnover).

So tomorrow might be the last game of a 2 year run of Brady-driven legitimacy and then its back to being an NFC doormat until we can luck into/find a QB (which, with our sterling track record, means a decade or more!).

Enjoy these moments Bucs fans!

[Noles1724]

Apparently a lot of rumors floating around that Brady is possibly leaning toward retirement after the playoffs (surely that chance would be amplified by coaching staff/personnel turnover).

So tomorrow might be the last game of a 2 year run of Brady-driven legitimacy and then its back to being an NFC doormat until we can luck into/find a QB (which, with our sterling track record, means a decade or more!).

Enjoy these moments Bucs fans!

Unfortunately I think about the post Brady era way more than I should.

[Snake]

Maybe we just retire as fans after this 3rd SB win. Nowhere to go but down.

[Noles1724]

Naw.. I've been on the ship far too long, but rough sea ahead, for sure

[Cheb]

Apparently a lot of rumors floating around that Brady is possibly leaning toward retirement after the playoffs (surely that chance would be amplified by coaching staff/personnel turnover).

So tomorrow might be the last game of a 2 year run of Brady-driven legitimacy and then its back to being an NFC doormat until we can luck into/find a QB (which, with our sterling track record, means a decade or more!).

Enjoy these moments Bucs fans!

It wouldn't shock me if Brady retired, and if he does I wish him the best and will that k him for the best two-year span in franchise history.

The knock-on effects of his retirement though will suck. If Brady's gone, then Gronk is gone, and so are another half dozen core players I'd wager. BA would probably hang up the clipboard if Brady leaves, and our coordinators may leave as well.

As far as our QBotF, presumably that's a big reason why we drafted Trask in the second round. I believed in him coming out of the draft and I still do.

[King Bootz]

Maybe we just retire as fans after this 3rd SB win. Nowhere to go but down.

It'd be a very Fairweather franchise thing to do

[King Bootz]

Not sure what Greg means by "only 12%". No player on this team this year accounts for 10% of the cap. 12% for a player not there is significant.

[0-26 Survivor]

Maybe we just retire as fans after this 3rd SB win. Nowhere to go but down.

Probably for the newer generation of fans, I guess……