Thank the lord! Licht didn’t f up the 2014 pick

[Bootz]

Just a HUGE coincidence then that every other franchise type QB not on a rookie contract has 3 years+ on their deals then, huh?

Again, you're trying to create a narrative for the Bucs as if they are an outliers in the NFL.

[Bootz]

Lamar Jackson has 3 years and nearly $150mil left on his deal. Baltimore is already in talks with him about an extension.

So if you dont understand what standard practice is in the NFL, then I'm sorry to say @Grahamburn I agree with you that you are clueless and wrong here.

[Central_Buc]

There are a lot of mediocre teams w/o a QB that would love to have and pay Baker

[Bootz]

There are a lot of mediocre teams w/o a QB that would love to have and pay Baker

Such as?

[Grahamburn]

Lamar Jackson has 3 years and nearly $150mil left on his deal. Baltimore is already in talks with him about an extension.

So if you dont understand what standard practice is in the NFL, then I'm sorry to say @Grahamburn I agree with you that you are clueless and wrong here.

Lamar Jackson is the trump card you want to play here?

Didn’t he and the Ravens go through all kinds of contract drama and holdouts and franchise tags and trade talks like as recent as two years ago?

After he’d won an MVP for them.

So is it just “standard practice” because you say so?

[Grahamburn]

Just a HUGE coincidence then that every other franchise type QB not on a rookie contract has 3 years+ on their deals then, huh?

Again, you're trying to create a narrative for the Bucs as if they are an outliers in the NFL.

You don’t think the situation with Baker is a little different? It is an outlier. Former #1 overall QB dumped by multiple teams signed to a one year prove it deal and then a middling QB deal.

The franchise QBs have to show they’re franchise QBs for multiple years before getting that kind of contract.

The Bucs were stuck in between with Baker and he was stuck in between with the Bucs.

If he has another 2024 type year he’s going to get a franchise QB level extension in Tampa.

[Phantom]

Just a HUGE coincidence then that every other franchise type QB not on a rookie contract has 3 years+ on their deals then, huh?

Again, you're trying to create a narrative for the Bucs as if they are an outliers in the NFL.

You don’t think the situation with Baker is a little different? It is an outlier. Former #1 overall QB dumped by multiple teams signed to a one year prove it deal and then a middling QB deal.

The franchise QBs have to show they’re franchise QBs for multiple years before getting that kind of contract.

The Bucs were stuck in between with Baker and he was stuck in between with the Bucs.

If he has another 2024 type year he’s going to get a franchise QB level extension in Tampa.

Oh you bet your ass he will.

We’ll likely hear a lot of bitching from Cannon.

[Bootz]

Just a HUGE coincidence then that every other franchise type QB not on a rookie contract has 3 years+ on their deals then, huh?

Again, you're trying to create a narrative for the Bucs as if they are an outliers in the NFL.

You don’t think the situation with Baker is a little different? It is an outlier. Former #1 overall QB dumped by multiple teams signed to a one year prove it deal and then a middling QB deal.

The franchise QBs have to show they’re franchise QBs for multiple years before getting that kind of contract.

The Bucs were stuck in between with Baker and he was stuck in between with the Bucs.

If he has another 2024 type year he’s going to get a franchise QB level extension in Tampa.

THAT'S THE POINT MANY HAVE BEEN MAKING ALL ALONG!!

You're trying to play both sides of the fence on this issue. IF he were already on that franchise QB level, he'd have that deal by now. You just admitted here, and I'm glad you finally did, that he's not on that level yet. Yet you keep trying to say he is and criticize those who lay out valid reasons as to why he isn't.

That's literally all @CannonFire and others have been saying all this time. Baker might become that guy, but he's not there yet. Another year like 2024, absolutely he's getting that deal. But let's not pretend that it's a foregone conclusion.

[__Chef__]

THAT'S THE POINT MANY HAVE BEEN MAKING ALL ALONG!!

If he has another 2024 type year (I'm betting he will) he will cement himself as a top 5 QB, not top 10. When that happens, will the Baker doubters come on board, or will they then say he needs 3 years to prove it? 4 years? Until then, "not even a top 10 QB"?

Really the only mark I can put against Baker was that the Rams let him go. The Browns were a trash organization when he showed up, and he actually made them a playoff team. The Panthers are a trash organization. Baker's "failures" at those stops weren't his own. When graded on a scale, Baker's time with the Browns was remarkable.

Putting that in context, his first year here was B+ considering it was a new team, new teammates, new city, new playbook, new OC, etc. Year 2 jump shows impressive growth. Year 3, I expect 2024 as a baseline. With more weapons in the passing game, more continuity in the system, and year 2 of the same Oline with an improved Graham Barton, expect even better.

The question is going to be where are we going to have to cut in order to afford what ridiculous contracts are being handed out now to QBs.

[Central_Buc]

There are a lot of mediocre teams w/o a QB that would love to have and pay Baker

Such as?

Pittsburgh
NY Jets
Cleveland (already regrets trading him)
Minnesota (depending on McCarthy)
Miami (Tuas health)
Jacksonville

LA Chargers (this is arguably if you still believe in Herbert)

Las Vegas
Indianapolis
Arizona
Seattle
Dallas
NY Giants (depending on Dart)
Tennessee (Depending on Ward)
New Orleans (If they don't get Arch)

Atlanta for the same reason as the others with rookie QBs but I actually think Penix fits Atlanta and should be their franchise for the next 10+ years. I would be surprised if he fails. I think the only concern for Atlanta is his injury history in college.

I left out Carolina but if they stuck by him in the first place, with the roster they have now and are building they would be in the mix for the division. At the end of the day, I think Baker finishes with a better career than Bryce.

The Rams will also need a QB soon since they will be moving on from Stafford I think after this year and they aren't bad enough for Arch.

[CannonFire]

You don’t think the situation with Baker is a little different? It is an outlier. Former #1 overall QB dumped by multiple teams signed to a one year prove it deal and then a middling QB deal.

The franchise QBs have to show they’re franchise QBs for multiple years before getting that kind of contract.

The Bucs were stuck in between with Baker and he was stuck in between with the Bucs.

If he has another 2024 type year he’s going to get a franchise QB level extension in Tampa.

Oh you bet your ass he will.

We’ll likely hear a lot of bitching from Cannon.

Clearly you've been making your own assumptions and never actually listening (reading). Thought you were better than Graham on this, apparently not.

[Grahamburn]

You don’t think the situation with Baker is a little different? It is an outlier. Former #1 overall QB dumped by multiple teams signed to a one year prove it deal and then a middling QB deal.

The franchise QBs have to show they’re franchise QBs for multiple years before getting that kind of contract.

The Bucs were stuck in between with Baker and he was stuck in between with the Bucs.

If he has another 2024 type year he’s going to get a franchise QB level extension in Tampa.

THAT'S THE POINT MANY HAVE BEEN MAKING ALL ALONG!!

You're trying to play both sides of the fence on this issue. IF he were already on that franchise QB level, he'd have that deal by now. You just admitted here, and I'm glad you finally did, that he's not on that level yet. Yet you keep trying to say he is and criticize those who lay out valid reasons as to why he isn't.

That's literally all @CannonFire and others have been saying all this time. Baker might become that guy, but he's not there yet. Another year like 2024, absolutely he's getting that deal. But let's not pretend that it's a foregone conclusion.

So a player can only be considered a franchise level QB if they have a franchise level QB contract? Both sides can't just have an understanding that it will come eventually knowing full well he's our guy and this is where he wants to be?

I'm not playing both sides of anything. I'm being positive about Baker continuing to perform well in Tampa based on his performance here. Others are choosing to be pessimistic. That's fine.

There were people pessimistic about Lamar after he won the MVP in his second season. Why is it a different set of parameters for Baker after an historic second season in Tampa? Lamar didn't get an extension after that year but I imagine plenty of people knew he was already a franchise QB for the Ravens.

[CannonFire]

@Bootz @__Chef__

Baker was locked in to getting a new deal (aside from restructures), the second he signed the 3-year deal. We knew that because of how the deal was structured.

I've said this before, but it's because of 2 reasons...
1) Jason Licht is BAD at evaluating QB's
2) All GM's are more worried about their job, than actually trusting their views on QB's.


Earlier I posted 8 (9?), points proving that Licht is not good on this aspect of his job. He has a guy that people are buying and applauding his signing. That's all he needs, because he just got a new contract himself. I've said this in an earlier post and nothings changed... we have an ok GM, and ok HC, and an ok QB. They're all fine, acceptable. None of the 3 qualify as "really good" or better. Together, this team should be a competent team. If you want a pretender every year, then you should be happy with what we have. The most likely result of the coming season (assuming everyone is reasonably healthy), are stats slightly worse than last year, but better than 2023. That'll be enough to get Mayfield another deal. The thing is, even if he did last year what he did in 2023, and did it again here, he'd have gotten another deal anyway. Because you have people like Graham and Doctor and Phantom who are always scare about "Who else are you going to get" or "What, you need a savior", that attitude is what keeps teams in that pretender position. See Dallas (Dak), see Arizona (Murray), see Miami (Tua), see Jacksonville (Lawrence), see Tennessee (Tannehill)... these teams continued or continue still, to maintain a guy who's just good enough to keep them relevant, but not good enough to excel, but they're paid to excel because the GM's are scared.

There are two schools of thought...
1) Don't chase perfection which is almost impossible to attain, at the cost of being good.
2) Don't let good get in the way of being great.

Licht and some on this board are the first type of person... I'm the second. It's why Baker will get a 4 year/$180M deal at the end of the season and some people here will cheer and people like me will say, "Great, another 3 or 4 years of being a pretender", because we're paying "a guy" a boatload of cash, to be "a guy", instead of trying to actually find a "franchise QB". Imaging how the Chief's would be if they say, "We have Alex Smith, why do we need to trade up for a QB"? Alex Smith, the 3 years prior to them drafting Mahomes, had a comp % of 65.9, passer rating of over 93 and QBR of around 53... right now, Mayfield's career comp% is 63.5, passer rating is 92 and QBR is around 54.

It's fine that Mayfield is here, it would be fine if he had a longer contract. It's just not fine if we're going to pay him $45M to $50M a year.

[Grahamburn]

GM's aren't scared. They realize there's a finite number of QB resources in the world and there's more than one way to build a winning team. It's something you fail to realize. "Just trade up and get Mahomes" is not a strategy. It's a lottery ticket.

[Central_Buc]

GM's aren't scared. They realize there's a finite number of QB resources in the world and there's more than one way to build a winning team. It's something you fail to realize. "Just trade up and get Mahomes" is not a strategy. It's a lottery ticket.

Even more so when the league expanded to 32 teams. I feel like in the 90s compared to today there were more capable back up QBs and today not as much. Let alone finding a starter.

[CannonFire]

GM's aren't scared. They realize there's a finite number of QB resources in the world and there's more than one way to build a winning team. It's something you fail to realize. "Just trade up and get Mahomes" is not a strategy. It's a lottery ticket.

Even more so when the league expanded to 32 teams. I feel like in the 90s compared to today there were more capable back up QBs and today not as much. Let alone finding a starter.

Did I read this right? Are you saying there were more good (or easier to find), QB's in the 90's than it is today?

[CannonFire]

GM's aren't scared. They realize there's a finite number of QB resources in the world and there's more than one way to build a winning team. It's something you fail to realize. "Just trade up and get Mahomes" is not a strategy. It's a lottery ticket.

Yes, most GM's are scared to lose their job. They'd rather be safe and employed than aggressive and confident to go get their guy. The only times they can justify getting a QB, is when they're picking in the top handful of picks and take one of the top prospects (see Jason Licht/Jameis Winston). The fanbase will buy it.

Also, that bolded part makes 0 sense. The only way it does make sense, is that you think GM's and head coaches are lying when they say getting a franchise QB is the most important thing.

[Grahamburn]

GM's aren't scared. They realize there's a finite number of QB resources in the world and there's more than one way to build a winning team. It's something you fail to realize. "Just trade up and get Mahomes" is not a strategy. It's a lottery ticket.

Yes, most GM's are scared to lose their job. They'd rather be safe and employed than aggressive and confident to go get their guy. The only times they can justify getting a QB, is when they're picking in the top handful of picks and take one of the top prospects (see Jason Licht/Jameis Winston). The fanbase will buy it.

Also, that bolded part makes 0 sense. The only way it does make sense, is that you think GM's and head coaches are lying when they say getting a franchise QB is the most important thing.

I definitely don't think they're lying. However, I do think they realize that just because a guy has "QB" next to his name and can throw a spiral doesn't mean he can be an elite QB in the NFL.

I know you've said before that you'd just draft a QB every single year until you had your guy. I don't think you'd be employed long. Definitely not as long as Jason Licht has.

[Central_Buc]

Even more so when the league expanded to 32 teams. I feel like in the 90s compared to today there were more capable back up QBs and today not as much. Let alone finding a starter.

Did I read this right? Are you saying there were more good (or easier to find), QB's in the 90's than it is today?

Didn't say easier. I said harder to find today.

Also 4 Less teams to compete for those QBs in the draft. It kind of makes a difference.

Start of 90 a back up wins the Superbowl. Not just win the SB but came in late in the season and led the team there, granted he did have Belichick on his side as DC that year. But Hostetler also had success elsewhere too.

In 92 you had another back up orchestrate the greatest comeback in NFL playoff history but that wasn't just a fluke because he was always serviceable until Kelly came back.

You had Jim McMahon floating around as a backup at that time

Elvis Grbac serviceable as a backup for 2 teams.

Steve Young before Montana in 90

Shall I go on?

[CannonFire]

Yes, most GM's are scared to lose their job. They'd rather be safe and employed than aggressive and confident to go get their guy. The only times they can justify getting a QB, is when they're picking in the top handful of picks and take one of the top prospects (see Jason Licht/Jameis Winston). The fanbase will buy it.

Also, that bolded part makes 0 sense. The only way it does make sense, is that you think GM's and head coaches are lying when they say getting a franchise QB is the most important thing.

I definitely don't think they're lying. However, I do think they realize that just because a guy has "QB" next to his name and can throw a spiral doesn't mean he can be an elite QB in the NFL.

I know you've said before that you'd just draft a QB every single year until you had your guy. I don't think you'd be employed long. Definitely not as long as Jason Licht has.

Agreed, not everyone can be elite... but can they be competent starters? If the answer is yes, then if the guy you have is making $20, $30, $40... whatever, million dollars and he's a competent starter, you're better off with the kid making $1M because you have $19, $29, $39... whatever, million dollars to spend on bolstering up the rest of the team to fill holes. It's a matter of evaluating the talent. I think most GM's will do what Licht did. He played it safe and re-signed Mayfield to a contract that, for some strange reason, gave Mayfield leverage.

Yes, I'd draft a QB every year if necessary. As an example of what I mean... I'm pretty confident that everyone on this board knows that Kyle Trask stinks, right? Why is he here? I'm drafting a QB to replace him. In this draft, there were 9 QB's taken after R3. I think there's a 0% chance that all 9 of them are worse than Trask. I think there's a 100% chance that at least 1 of them is better than him. I'm drafting one. It's my job to do my due diligence to find a guy where I say, "worst case scenario, he's another Kyle Trask, but best case scenario, he's a diamond in the rough". To me, leaving this draft without a QB, is failure on Licht's part. Using only this as a guide, to not over complicate things. If Roberts is a backup/special teamer, a back up QB is more important. I'm taking a QB. Every QB taken in the 6th round, would have been a better investment. That's what I mean by, I would draft a QB every year. He doesn't have to be a 1st rounder or a 2nd rounder. If I have "a guy", I'm looking every year at some point. If there's a guy in the draft that I say, "This guy is a franchise QB", I'm taking him R1 and if I have to trade the guy I have, so be it. I'm not risking losing out on a star, to keep "a guy". It's why I say, I don't let good, prevent me from being great. That's what the Mahomes pick was. He was no lottery ticket.

By drafting Mahomes, Andy Reid essentially said, "I believe that Mahomes is a star. I may be wrong, but I can live with myself taking that chance. I can't live with myself if I don't take the chance, and I was right about him."

I don't know that I'd have a job shorter than Licht... it just depends on the owner. Licht signed a 4-year deal with a team option 5th year. From 2014 to 2017, the Bucs were 22-42, heading in the wrong direction and looking to have drafted a #1 overall bust. If Malcom was alive and kicking and still the owner, there's 50/50 chance he picks up the team option. Joel and Brian picked up the option, they won 5 games. They gave him a 1 year extension... Malcom would've definitely let him walk after the 2018 season. So, that kind of thing is about the owner and what they're willing to accept.

[Bootz]

THAT'S THE POINT MANY HAVE BEEN MAKING ALL ALONG!!

You're trying to play both sides of the fence on this issue. IF he were already on that franchise QB level, he'd have that deal by now. You just admitted here, and I'm glad you finally did, that he's not on that level yet. Yet you keep trying to say he is and criticize those who lay out valid reasons as to why he isn't.

That's literally all @CannonFire and others have been saying all this time. Baker might become that guy, but he's not there yet. Another year like 2024, absolutely he's getting that deal. But let's not pretend that it's a foregone conclusion.

So a player can only be considered a franchise level QB if they have a franchise level QB contract? Both sides can't just have an understanding that it will come eventually knowing full well he's our guy and this is where he wants to be?

I'm not playing both sides of anything. I'm being positive about Baker continuing to perform well in Tampa based on his performance here. Others are choosing to be pessimistic. That's fine.

There were people pessimistic about Lamar after he won the MVP in his second season. Why is it a different set of parameters for Baker after an historic second season in Tampa? Lamar didn't get an extension after that year but I imagine plenty of people knew he was already a franchise QB for the Ravens.

Again, do you know nothing about this league? Look around. Yes, teams like to get these things done ASAP. QBs like to get these things done ASAP. Your idea that somehow handshake agreements are the norm comes out of what you'd do personally.

Why do you think there are things like holdouts/holdins and trades etc? If a player knows his worth, he wants the team to show that worth as well.

You are absolutely playing both sides. You're projecting your prediction that Baker will continue on the same path onto anyone who actually wants to wait and see. How is waiting and seeing pessimistic or negative? It's realistic to do so.

There's a pretty major reason Lamar didn't get an extension after his 2nd season. Per CBA guidelines, players aren't eligible to sign extensions until after their 3rd seasons in the league. If Caleb Williams or Jayden Daniels win MVP this year, guess what? I guarantee you they wont be getting extensions because they can't.

Historic 2nd season by Baker? What was historic about it? He had a great year, but there wasn't anything historic. BUT that is kind of the point, one you made. He doesn't have the equity yet. He's got to show consistency, which he hasn't yet from year to year. This year would certainly help him build on that trust.

And since you wanted to bring up Jackson, here's the difference between him and Baker. Jackson has built up the equity to warrant the deal and also, request a trade which he did. The Ravens, knowing what they had/have didn't consider a trade. Do you think Baker could command a trade demand? Not a chance.

[CannonFire]

Did I read this right? Are you saying there were more good (or easier to find), QB's in the 90's than it is today?

Didn't say easier. I said harder to find today.

Also 4 Less teams to compete for those QBs in the draft. It kind of makes a difference.

Start of 90 a back up wins the Superbowl. Not just win the SB but came in late in the season and led the team there, granted he did have Belichick on his side as DC that year. But Hostetler also had success elsewhere too.

In 92 you had another back up orchestrate the greatest comeback in NFL playoff history but that wasn't just a fluke because he was always serviceable until Kelly came back.

You had Jim McMahon floating around as a backup at that time

Elvis Grbac serviceable as a backup for 2 teams.

Steve Young before Montana in 90

Shall I go on?

Ok, I was right. You think it was easier back in the 90's than it is today. I disagree. I think the NFL has made the offensive rules so much more QB friendly that teams can go get a guy every year, that could improve their team... be it FA or the draft. The NFL is closing in on an era where there's a surplus of QB's.

Well, on second thought, maybe we agree, but for different reasons. I can see the argument that it was easier back in the day... but that's because they (QB's), weren't as important. It was about defense and the running game and less so, the passing game.

[Central_Buc]

Didn't say easier. I said harder to find today.

Also 4 Less teams to compete for those QBs in the draft. It kind of makes a difference.

Start of 90 a back up wins the Superbowl. Not just win the SB but came in late in the season and led the team there, granted he did have Belichick on his side as DC that year. But Hostetler also had success elsewhere too.

In 92 you had another back up orchestrate the greatest comeback in NFL playoff history but that wasn't just a fluke because he was always serviceable until Kelly came back.

You had Jim McMahon floating around as a backup at that time

Elvis Grbac serviceable as a backup for 2 teams.

Steve Young before Montana in 90

Shall I go on?

Ok, I was right. You think it was easier back in the 90's than it is today. I disagree. I think the NFL has made the offensive rules so much more QB friendly that teams can go get a guy every year, that could improve their team... be it FA or the draft. The NFL is closing in on an era where there's a surplus of QB's.

Well, on second thought, maybe we agree, but for different reasons. I can see the argument that it was easier back in the day... but that's because they (QB's), weren't as important. It was about defense and the running game and less so, the passing game.

True that it's different eras so there no argument from me on your point.

However, I feel that with the popularity of the game over the past 50+ years QB prospects should be fruitful and shouldn't be as hard to find as it seems today, do you agree with that?

[__Chef__]

... Mayfield's career comp% is 63.5, passer rating is 92 and QBR is around 54.

Again, you're not factoring in the Browns negative impact. The team won 4 games TOTAL for the 3 years prior to Baker showing up.

Take rookie Josh Allen, throw him on the Browns, how do those stats look? Ditto rookie Mahomes or Burrow.

How does Mayfield's comp% and passer rating look while HERE?

2023 64.3% 94.6
2024 71.4% 106.8

[Doctor]

I mean, I was honestly going to try to illustrate why your positions is ridiculously overzealous but I think you did that for me.

Yes, we all want one of those amazing QBs but despite the hype, there isn't one (or several) coming out each year. And when there are, good luck actually trying to evaluate the most difficult position in sports. And even when the evaluation is gift wrapped for you, years of near consensus (Winston, Tua, Lawrence), you can still lose your bet.

The idea of putting the entire team on hold until you happen to catch a unicorn is the most loser strategy I've ever heard of. And you'd think fans of a team with 2 chips off FA QBs would know that.

[CannonFire]

Ok, I was right. You think it was easier back in the 90's than it is today. I disagree. I think the NFL has made the offensive rules so much more QB friendly that teams can go get a guy every year, that could improve their team... be it FA or the draft. The NFL is closing in on an era where there's a surplus of QB's.

Well, on second thought, maybe we agree, but for different reasons. I can see the argument that it was easier back in the day... but that's because they (QB's), weren't as important. It was about defense and the running game and less so, the passing game.

True that it's different eras so there no argument from me on your point.

However, I feel that with the popularity of the game over the past 50+ years QB prospects should be fruitful and shouldn't be as hard to find as it seems today, do you agree with that?

I absolutely agree with that, it's why I say we're approaching an era of surplus at the QB position. I believe it's also easier now for QB's to assimilate into the NFL than in the past.

[Grahamburn]

You could have had the #1 pick overall every single year dating back all the way to 1989 when Troy Aikman was drafted and you would have landed a total of 7-8 elite franchise QBs depending on your definition. Only 4 championship winners.

I'm sure @CannonFire would have nailed it every single time though and could certainly do it by just drafting a guy every year with whatever draft position he had.

[CannonFire]

... Mayfield's career comp% is 63.5, passer rating is 92 and QBR is around 54.

Again, you're not factoring in the Browns negative impact. The team won 4 games TOTAL for the 3 years prior to Baker showing up.

Take rookie Josh Allen, throw him on the Browns, how do those stats look? Ditto rookie Mahomes or Burrow.

How does Mayfield's comp% and passer rating look while HERE?

2023 64.3% 94.6
2024 71.4% 106.8

I've never once ignored anything with the Browns. In fact, I use them to prove my point over and over. You posted the 2023 numbers, how much different are they from 2018 through 2020 in Cleveland? The only real outlier is last year... and that's when he had a great OLine, great backfield, and great pass catchers. My whole point all along is that an average QB (see Baker Mayfield), can be put in this environment and succeed, that's why there's no reason to over pay him.

[Grahamburn]

Again, you're not factoring in the Browns negative impact. The team won 4 games TOTAL for the 3 years prior to Baker showing up.

Take rookie Josh Allen, throw him on the Browns, how do those stats look? Ditto rookie Mahomes or Burrow.

How does Mayfield's comp% and passer rating look while HERE?

2023 64.3% 94.6
2024 71.4% 106.8

I've never once ignored anything with the Browns. In fact, I use them to prove my point over and over. You posted the 2023 numbers, how much different are they from 2018 through 2020 in Cleveland? The only real outlier is last year... and that's when he had a great OLine, great backfield, and great pass catchers. My whole point all along is that an average QB (see Baker Mayfield), can be put in this environment and succeed, that's why there's no reason to over pay him.

Jameis Winston was in this environment and could not succeed.

[CannonFire]

You could have had the #1 pick overall every single year dating back all the way to 1989 when Troy Aikman was drafted and you would have landed a total of 7-8 elite franchise QBs depending on your definition. Only 4 championship winners.

I'm sure @CannonFire would have nailed it every single time though and could certainly do it by just drafting a guy every year with whatever draft position he had.

Yes, I am THAT good. Nice to see you're finally getting it.

[CannonFire]

I've never once ignored anything with the Browns. In fact, I use them to prove my point over and over. You posted the 2023 numbers, how much different are they from 2018 through 2020 in Cleveland? The only real outlier is last year... and that's when he had a great OLine, great backfield, and great pass catchers. My whole point all along is that an average QB (see Baker Mayfield), can be put in this environment and succeed, that's why there's no reason to over pay him.

Jameis Winston was in this environment and could not succeed.

Agreed. I never condoned drafting him in the first place. He was a horrible decision maker in college, why anyone thought he'd improve in the NFL, well, I don't know what lead them to that decision.

[Doctor]

You seem to be batting 1000 on all your takes of past drafts.

Curious if that extends forward any which way.

[Grahamburn]

You seem to be batting 1000 on all your takes of past drafts.

Curious if that extends forward any which way.

When it’s a swing and a miss he’s just joking.

[__Chef__]

Again, you're not factoring in the Browns negative impact. The team won 4 games TOTAL for the 3 years prior to Baker showing up.

Take rookie Josh Allen, throw him on the Browns, how do those stats look? Ditto rookie Mahomes or Burrow.

How does Mayfield's comp% and passer rating look while HERE?

2023 64.3% 94.6
2024 71.4% 106.8

I've never once ignored anything with the Browns. In fact, I use them to prove my point over and over. You posted the 2023 numbers, how much different are they from 2018 through 2020 in Cleveland? The only real outlier is last year... and that's when he had a great OLine, great backfield, and great pass catchers. My whole point all along is that an average QB (see Baker Mayfield), can be put in this environment and succeed, that's why there's no reason to over pay him.

No, you're pretty well ignoring it. How many "Franchise QBs" are drafted by and become known as "Franchise QBs" on trash teams? On teams that won 4 games over a 3 year period prior to "the Franchise" showing up? On teams that hadn't been to a playoff game in the 15 years prior?

An "Average QB" is drafted by the sewer, and gets flushed. They don't lift the sewer into the playoffs.

[Doctor]

You could have had the #1 pick overall every single year dating back all the way to 1989 when Troy Aikman was drafted and you would have landed a total of 7-8 elite franchise QBs depending on your definition. Only 4 championship winners.

This post should be reposted every April.