Goff: PAID!

[Grahamburn]

Best season of his career in a contract year and his drafting team let him walk. Would it have sucked to acquire him? No, I never said that. But, for $20M I'd rather have an average QB than an above average guard. If he even is that.

Ooorrr... he is getting better every year. In 2021, he graded out as 67.4, in 2022, 73.7, and then 77.1 last year. Now, I'd buy the argument that you think the cost is too high, fine. I don't see it that way, but it's ok. But expecting better results with the same cast with only a rookie added to the mix (Barton), is wishful thinking to me.

Last 4 seasons....

Player A: 62.2% comp / 4.5% TD / 2.2% Int / 7.1 ypa / 89.39 passer rating
Player B: 65.9% comp / 4.5% TD / 2.2% Int / 7.5 ypa / 94.2 passer rating

Who's been better over the last 4 seasons?

Maybe he is? My expectation would be he'll regress going from a powerhouse offense like the Dolphins to a bottom feeder one like the Panthers. Good for him though.

I do not know. Why is whoever the mystery QB you're comparing Mayfield to relevant here? I'll guess it's Minshew. I think you're discounting the effect having Mayfield in the fold helped us with signing our own guys, as well as Wirfs in the future.

[Doctor]

I've asked him repeatedly to take a stances on several QBs, both prospect and retread, and he refuses to without the benefit of hindsight.

You did? When? Or were those when you making random posts that people can miss so that they don't answer you... so you can make posts like you just did here?

You're replying now, clearly you didn't miss it. You act like this is some crazy active board.

But sure, here is me asking you again, quoting the first time I asked you, and also tagging you.

viewtopic.php?p=186284&hilit=Curious#p186284

But hey, you got the mic now. Please answer. We'd love to know.

[CannonFire]

You did? When? Or were those when you making random posts that people can miss so that they don't answer you... so you can make posts like you just did here?

You're replying now, clearly you didn't miss it. You act like this is some crazy active board.

But sure, here is me asking you again, quoting the first time I asked you, and also tagging you.

viewtopic.php?p=186284&hilit=Curious#p186284

But hey, you got the mic now. Please answer. We'd love to know.

Well, you didn't reply to me with that, you replied to him, so that didn't come up as a notification and I didn't see it.

I mentioned a few prior to that post and I didn't feel it necessary to repeat myself and figured you didn't agree with them. Obviously, unless I said Pat Mahomes, you wouldn't agree with anyone, so what was the point in repeating myself.

But, I'll say them here for you, just so that you can't say that I balked at the challenge. For the price we gave Mayfield to be "bleh", I'd rather have given Cousins that money he got with Atlanta, IF the organization truly felt we could be a Super Bowl contender with a good QB (note: Mayfield isn't "good", he's mediocre to below average), then he should've been targeted. I believe that 3 other players could've been given 3 year deals at less money (overall... even if guaranteed was similar), and we could've gotten similar results as to what Mayfield would give us... Minshew, Fields, and (@Grahamburn per my prior post), Ryan Tannehill... who's still a free agent. Now of course, you'll say none of them are good, blah blah blah, but you won't find any data out there that shows Mayfield has been historically all that much more productive than either of those 3. I also suggested Russell Wilson, because he was free. Pretty sure we could've got him here for the deal that he signed with Pittsburgh. Could've probably got him here on a 3-year deal worth $50M, with Y1 being league minimum. Note, that $50M is what Mayfield is getting... but it wouldn't be guaranteed.

So, there's 4 QB's that would've either cost the Bucs more money for a better QB or cost less money over 2 to 3 years, and yielded similar to better results. Another deal I'd have done was sign Flacco to a 1 year deal to backup Trask. According to our FO and coaches, Trask and Mayfield were neck and neck last off-season. If that's the case, give Trask the job and see if he's a franchise QB and drop $5M on Flacco to back him up. Worst case scenario is we win 4 or 5 games (which is only 2 or 3 less than what I expect from Mayfield). In either case, we still miss the playoffs, but in one of those... we have a higher draft pick that increases our chances of a franchise QB.

The biggest problem in all of this, is that YOU (and some others), have this delusion that Baker Mayfield is better than what he really is. News Flash! Baker Mayfield has never been a good QB. At best, he's average, but he really is slightly below average. He's not "good"... "Good", being top 7 to 12 (which... back on topic, is where Goff falls). Mayfield is around 16 to 20 (maybe lower).

[CannonFire]

Ooorrr... he is getting better every year. In 2021, he graded out as 67.4, in 2022, 73.7, and then 77.1 last year. Now, I'd buy the argument that you think the cost is too high, fine. I don't see it that way, but it's ok. But expecting better results with the same cast with only a rookie added to the mix (Barton), is wishful thinking to me.

Last 4 seasons....

Player A: 62.2% comp / 4.5% TD / 2.2% Int / 7.1 ypa / 89.39 passer rating
Player B: 65.9% comp / 4.5% TD / 2.2% Int / 7.5 ypa / 94.2 passer rating

Who's been better over the last 4 seasons?

Maybe he is? My expectation would be he'll regress going from a powerhouse offense like the Dolphins to a bottom feeder one like the Panthers. Good for him though.

For all the smoke you're blowing for Mauch, I'll be curious if you have the same thoughts about him if he has a similar trajectory, as you do for Hunt right now.

[Doctor]

Curious, do you really think you answered my question with all that or just gave the answer you wanted to give?

[Grahamburn]

Maybe he is? My expectation would be he'll regress going from a powerhouse offense like the Dolphins to a bottom feeder one like the Panthers. Good for him though.

For all the smoke you're blowing for Mauch, I'll be curious if you have the same thoughts about him if he has a similar trajectory, as you do for Hunt right now.

All I've said about Mauch is the small school guys Licht has drafted have significantly improved in their second years, and I've posted some positive reviews of his play. Yes, I'd rather see if he can improve as an athletic converted tackle drafted in the second round and only entering his second year versus paying someone $20M and neglecting starting QB.

[Grahamburn]

@CannonFire

It's interesting bringing up Cousins. I've compared him to Baker before. They're not too different through their first 6 seasons statistically. And Kirk really came on in that department when he changed teams and turned 30. He was 8-7-1 that first season in Minnesota though. Barely been better than average as far as winning football games goes since with one outlier year in 2022 with an abnormally high winning percentage in one score games.

We'll just have to agree to disagree that giving Baker $50M guaranteed at 29 versus giving Cousins twice as much at 35 coming off a torn achilles is somehow a better deal.

As far as Goff? Yeah, I think he's way overpaid now (again), but that doesn't matter if the Lions keep winning.

Baker is not overpaid.

[Selmon Rules]

Are we gonna do this on every "fill in QB who just signed new contract": PAID thread??

[Grahamburn]

Are we gonna do this on every "fill in QB who just signed new contract": PAID thread??

Yes?

[CannonFire]

Curious, do you really think you answered my question with all that or just gave the answer you wanted to give?

What was the point of your question then? If you're not asking what other qbs I believe in going to their second or 3rd team, what are you asking? I'm saying that I'd believe I'm all of them coming here. You claimed you didn't want hindsight.

[CannonFire]

For all the smoke you're blowing for Mauch, I'll be curious if you have the same thoughts about him if he has a similar trajectory, as you do for Hunt right now.

All I've said about Mauch is the small school guys Licht has drafted have significantly improved in their second years, and I've posted some positive reviews of his play. Yes, I'd rather see if he can improve as an athletic converted tackle drafted in the second round and only entering his second year versus paying someone $20M and neglecting starting QB.

Right. And if he does improve the way Rush did, are you going to "ho hum" his new deal? My guess is yes, but only if another team signs him.

[Grahamburn]

All I've said about Mauch is the small school guys Licht has drafted have significantly improved in their second years, and I've posted some positive reviews of his play. Yes, I'd rather see if he can improve as an athletic converted tackle drafted in the second round and only entering his second year versus paying someone $20M and neglecting starting QB.

Right. And if he does improve the way Rush did, are you going to "ho hum" his new deal? My guess is yes, but only if another team signs him.

If the team that drafted him, the Bucs, ho hums his deal then yes, I probably will too as they didn't deem him fit for it. Marpet was an All-Pro. You extend that guy. Cappa? Serviceable but not worth top guard dollars. Go get your money. If Mauch turns into an All-Pro guard then I'd want to keep him.

I assume you mean Hunt? Serviceable but not worth top guard dollars. Go get your money. The Dolphins didn't even try to keep him. At least in the sense that they didn't franchise him. Maybe they tried to extend him? I don't know. He clearly wanted max dollars and went to the worst organization in the NFL to get it. I'll ho hum that deal every single time and I'm ecstatic we didn't give an above average-ish guard $20M instead of paying our QB (or our top pass rusher). Because that's how you end up with the #1 pick every year like the Panthers.

[Doctor]

Curious, do you really think you answered my question with all that or just gave the answer you wanted to give?

What was the point of your question then? If you're not asking what other qbs I believe in going to their second or 3rd team, what are you asking? I'm saying that I'd believe I'm all of them coming here. You claimed you didn't want hindsight.

You post like a devout zealot of tanking for a savior QB being the one true path to enlightenment. As such you are also one of the biggest Baker haters on here.

You use the fact that their drafted team moved on from them as proof positive that they aren't franchise material. A common zealot argument. But then you claim that we have you all wrong and you're misunderstood. That you're just an objectivist calling out the truth.

Alright, I'm open minded. Help me understand @CannonFire's objective truth. I want to know how you saw past retread QBs. More to the point, which 2nd/3rd team retreads of the past did you believe in? Believe could get their teams to a SB?

Did you believe in Brad Johnson?
What about Favre? Jets Farve or Viking Farve?
Did you believe in Warner, Giants or Cardinals?
Or Carson Palmer, Raiders or Cardinals?
What about Brady? Or Chiefs Alex Smith?

You want to sell us that you aren't some exclusive "draft your Mahomes" extremist, sell us. Sell us on your objectivism. Help us see how you see.

Instead, you rattled off a list of "QBs who are just as sucky as Baker and could've been had for less". Cool story.

But hey, here's yet another opportunity to answer my questions on the QBs above (and please add your own). Are you going to take it? Or am I trying to catch smoke?

[mdb1958]

Every time someone gets giddy about a player getting paid big money I think the clock starts for them to be civilians soon. Followed by oooh's and ahhh's of how could they be broke already after so many years.

[CannonFire]

What was the point of your question then? If you're not asking what other qbs I believe in going to their second or 3rd team, what are you asking? I'm saying that I'd believe I'm all of them coming here. You claimed you didn't want hindsight.

You post like a devout zealot of tanking for a savior QB being the one true path to enlightenment. As such you are also one of the biggest Baker haters on here.

You use the fact that their drafted team moved on from them as proof positive that they aren't franchise material. A common zealot argument. But then you claim that we have you all wrong and you're misunderstood. That you're just an objectivist calling out the truth.

Alright, I'm open minded. Help me understand @CannonFire's objective truth. I want to know how you saw past retread QBs. More to the point, which 2nd/3rd team retreads of the past did you believe in? Believe could get their teams to a SB?

Did you believe in Brad Johnson?
What about Favre? Jets Farve or Viking Farve?
Did you believe in Warner, Giants or Cardinals?
Or Carson Palmer, Raiders or Cardinals?
What about Brady? Or Chiefs Alex Smith?

You want to sell us that you aren't some exclusive "draft your Mahomes" extremist, sell us. Sell us on your objectivism. Help us see how you see.

Instead, you rattled off a list of "QBs who are just as sucky as Baker and could've been had for less". Cool story.

But hey, here's yet another opportunity to answer my questions on the QBs above (and please add your own). Are you going to take it? Or am I trying to catch smoke?

LOL, anytime I see (or hear), anyone use the words "savior", "zealot", and "extremist", I know I'm dealing with a nut job. I've made my points, I've backed them up, but you don't like them. That's a you problem, not a me problem. I'm done wasting my time with you.

[CannonFire]

Every time someone gets giddy about a player getting paid big money I think the clock starts for them to be civilians soon. Followed by oooh's and ahhh's of how could they be broke already after so many years.

It certainly happens that way... other times, it works out. For the most part, the two that always stick in my mind are Alvin Harper (because he did sign), and Albert Haynesworth, because he didn't. lol

[Snake]

Devout zealot. Lol

[Doctor]

[Central_Buc]

You post like a devout zealot of tanking for a savior QB being the one true path to enlightenment. As such you are also one of the biggest Baker haters on here.

You use the fact that their drafted team moved on from them as proof positive that they aren't franchise material. A common zealot argument. But then you claim that we have you all wrong and you're misunderstood. That you're just an objectivist calling out the truth.

Alright, I'm open minded. Help me understand @CannonFire's objective truth. I want to know how you saw past retread QBs. More to the point, which 2nd/3rd team retreads of the past did you believe in? Believe could get their teams to a SB?

Did you believe in Brad Johnson?
What about Favre? Jets Farve or Viking Farve?
Did you believe in Warner, Giants or Cardinals?
Or Carson Palmer, Raiders or Cardinals?
What about Brady? Or Chiefs Alex Smith?

You want to sell us that you aren't some exclusive "draft your Mahomes" extremist, sell us. Sell us on your objectivism. Help us see how you see.

Instead, you rattled off a list of "QBs who are just as sucky as Baker and could've been had for less". Cool story.

But hey, here's yet another opportunity to answer my questions on the QBs above (and please add your own). Are you going to take it? Or am I trying to catch smoke?

LOL, anytime I see (or hear), anyone use the words "savior", "zealot", and "extremist", I know I'm dealing with a nut job. I've made my points, I've backed them up, but you don't like them. That's a you problem, not a me problem. I'm done wasting my time with you.

Having to deal with Baker 3 more years. That must suck for you.

[Buc2]

LOL, anytime I see (or hear), anyone use the words "savior", "zealot", and "extremist", I know I'm dealing with a nut job. I've made my points, I've backed them up, but you don't like them. That's a you problem, not a me problem. I'm done wasting my time with you.

Having to deal with Baker 3 more years. That must suck for you.

It will only suck if Baker fails as he has predicted. I'm pretty sure that if Baker were to ball out, Cannon would be right there with the rest of us to cheer him on.

[CannonFire]

LOL, anytime I see (or hear), anyone use the words "savior", "zealot", and "extremist", I know I'm dealing with a nut job. I've made my points, I've backed them up, but you don't like them. That's a you problem, not a me problem. I'm done wasting my time with you.

Having to deal with Baker 3 more years. That must suck for you.

Not at all. It actually will be easier for me than you. You'll have expectations that he won't meet.

[Doctor]

Having to deal with Baker 3 more years. That must suck for you.

It will only suck if Baker fails as he has predicted. I'm pretty sure that if Baker were to ball out, Cannon would be right there with the rest of us to cheer him on.

You'd think. Some fans actually carry an "every win is a step further from a real QB solution" attitude all year long.

[Central_Buc]

Having to deal with Baker 3 more years. That must suck for you.

Not at all. It actually will be easier for me than you. You'll have expectations that he won't meet.

So if he fails it's easier for you because you get to brag about it on here how you were right, got it

[Central_Buc]

If only we had Michael Penix to save the day.

[Doctor]

Not at all. It actually will be easier for me than you. You'll have expectations that he won't meet.

So if he fails it's easier for you because you get to brag about it on here how you were right, got it

Exactly. It's the endless fountain of youth for haters, taking the ever highly favored field over literally anyone. Hell I can say Mahomes won't win it next year and am more likely right then not.

You could've said that about HoF Rodgers and Brees every year of their careers and been right 95% of the time.

Taking the field isn't some big brain bet.

[Central_Buc]

So if he fails it's easier for you because you get to brag about it on here how you were right, got it

Exactly. It's the endless fountain of youth for haters, taking the ever highly favored field over literally anyone. Hell I can say Mahomes won't win it next year and am more likely right then not.

You could've said that about HoF Rodgers and Brees every year of their careers and been right 95% of the time.

Taking the field isn't some big brain bet.

I dont really know how one can logically say he's going to underperform compared to last year when 1.the OL is now a year older and the media is reporting progress with certain rookie whipping boys the past 2 years (well, thats about to change)they're now thicker at G, by signing 3 other guards with size, added a C who is projected to be all pro.

2. Added 2 weapons on offense.

3. Added a more adjusted OC.

4. A full offseason.

The team does have weaknesses but QB isn't one of them.

[Central_Buc]

We also have the 4th longest active playoff streak in the NFL.

Maybe if you make a pot of soup containing the ingredients of Cousins achillies and Michael Penix, whaa laa back to being the Yucks next year!

But I'm actually making a bold prediction that the NFC South will be one of the best divisions with the Bucs, Atl and NO making the playoffs.

[Doctor]

Funny thing is all the retread QBs are favored over the latest cold beans savior. Though I actually like Carr, he was on my shortlist behind Brady that year, I just don't like the fit in NOLA. Overall they actually are what everyone is worried we are.

I actually do like the Bryce Canales fit, but at the end of the day Canales is gonna get Raheemed. He's too young, doesn't have a big enough network, or the support to turn that ship around. I like Evero with a talented squad and a strong complimentary offense, not what they have there. At the end of the day i wouldn't be surprised if all the coaches go on to have success elsewhere and we look at them like that Redskins staff. But present day, too green.

I actually like Raheem this time around and think he's nailed fit with Zac and Kirk. And yes, Penix. If Zac somehow doesn't get poached Falcons can be a problem for years.

Here's to hoping for an awful ATL start and a split lockerroom. Maybe Zac getting plucked for a HC job. Something.

Overall we have the most complete unit, lots of continuity both past and future locked in. Honestly a Liam poach worries me but you can only control so much.

[Central_Buc]

Funny thing is all the retread QBs are favored over the latest cold beans savior. Though I actually like Carr, he was on my shortlist behind Brady that year, I just don't like the fit in NOLA. Overall they actually are what everyone is worried we are.

I actually do like the Bryce Canales fit, but at the end of the day Canales is gonna get Raheemed. He's too young, doesn't have a big enough network, or the support to turn that ship around. I like Evero with a talented squad and a strong complimentary offense, not what they have there. At the end of the day i wouldn't be surprised if all the coaches go on to have success elsewhere and we look at them like that Redskins staff. But present day, too green.

I actually like Raheem this time around and think he's nailed fit with Zac and Kirk. And yes, Penix. If Zac somehow doesn't get poached Falcons can be a problem for years.

Here's to hoping for an awful ATL start and a split lockerroom. Maybe Zac getting plucked for a HC job. Something.

Overall we have the most complete unit, lots of continuity both past and future locked in. Honestly a Liam poach worries me but you can only control so much.

Unfortunately, I expect Coen to get poached next year.

[Doctor]

I think so too. Thad Lewis better be absorbing everything.

[CannonFire]

Not at all. It actually will be easier for me than you. You'll have expectations that he won't meet.

So if he fails it's easier for you because you get to brag about it on here how you were right, got it

Wow, are you a narcissist like Doctor? Why would I be happy that my team won 6, 7, or 8 games? I want the team to win. Besides, unless he's complete trash and is actively causing us to lose, because of the deal he signed, there's a 100% chance he's our qb next year too.

[Central_Buc]

So if he fails it's easier for you because you get to brag about it on here how you were right, got it

Wow, are you a narcissist like Doctor? Why would I be happy that my team won 6, 7, or 8 games? I want the team to win. Besides, unless he's complete trash and is actively causing us to lose, because of the deal he signed, there's a 100% chance he's our qb next year too.

He's only 28 though so he's going to be here for more than 3 years. I'll say 8 before we draft and groom someone else.

Narcissistic? Sure why not?

[Doctor]

You can say the next partout loud. You know you want to and have already said it.

"I WANT my team to win.... which we never will with so and so"

[Central_Buc]

You can say the next partout loud. You know you want to and have already said it.

"I WANT my team to win.... which we never will with so and so"

I would make dem soma beaches repeat that x times in a row.

[CannonFire]

Wow, are you a narcissist like Doctor? Why would I be happy that my team won 6, 7, or 8 games? I want the team to win. Besides, unless he's complete trash and is actively causing us to lose, because of the deal he signed, there's a 100% chance he's our qb next year too.

He's only 28 though so he's going to be here for more than 3 years. I'll say 8 before we draft and groom someone else.

Narcissistic? Sure why not?

If he plays as I expect, funny thing is it's probably the same as you, I think he gets 2 years. I don't think his abilities are that of a consistent winner. If things break right, he could lead this team to 9 wins (see last season), if they go bad, I think 6 wins sounds right. All things equal, 7 or 8. That's not someone you keep long term. When we have a losing record this year and next, I think they cut bait and move on before paying him that 3rd season.