Time to fire Todd Bowles

[Grahamburn]

He pumped all our resources into his defense and it’s atrocious.

Yes, all 12 dollars of cap space.

Keep playing like they did last week and I won't say a word. My guess is that performance will be short lived and forgotten in about 4 days.

[CannonFire]

Aim higher than "maybe being at the top of the absolute worst division in the NFL".

Wanting to be good enough to actually be a top team instead of just pretending is not a bad thing.

Name one of the top teams in the NFL who tanked to get there. I’ll wait.

Off the top of my head, I can name 3 in the last couple years.... Bengals (Burrow), Dolphins (Tua), & Houston (Stroud).

[Bootz]

Name one of the top teams in the NFL who tanked to get there. I’ll wait.

Off the top of my head, I can name 3 in the last couple years.... Bengals (Burrow), Dolphins (Tua), & Houston (Stroud).

The Bengals didn't tank. They simply sucked. They had a 1st time HC in Taylor who probably shouldn't have gotten the job in the 1st place. But Mike Brown wanted the polar opposite of Marvin Lewis, an older black defensive minded HC with a ton of experience.

Miami damn sure didn't tank winning 5 games and ending up with 5 wins. By your logic Washington, Detroit, NY Giants, LA Chargers, Arizona, and Carolina also tanked that season as they finished with the same or fewer wins than the Dolphins.

Houston if what you're saying is true pulled a bait and switch on their last 2 HCs before Ryans. That team is simply not good. Bad drafting. Bad FA signings. Bad trades. And drama all around in 2021 for them. That isn't tanking.


Even they all did tank, none of them are a top team. Miami, maybe. But they have a lot to prove. Cincinnati is going backwards since they went to the SB 2 seasons ago. Houston isn't there yet.

[Onthebrink]

Name one of the top teams in the NFL who tanked to get there. I’ll wait.

Off the top of my head, I can name 3 in the last couple years.... Bengals (Burrow), Dolphins (Tua), & Houston (Stroud).

The Texans won 2 of their final 3 games. They took the Chiefs to OT in the game that they lost. Going from having the number one pick to having the number two pick. 1 drive and a 2 point conversion away from the number 1 pick and they drove down the field scored a TD and went for 2 and the win. That lost them the number 1 pick. That doesn't sound like tanking. A Texans beat writer said that the Texans would have taken Bryce Young if they had the number 1 pick. That might not be true but by them not tanking over the final 3 games they might have gotten the better guy and only time will tell.

[Doctor]

Exactly. Texans did the exact opposite of tanking. Seven of their losses were one possession games they just lost... because they weren't a good football team.
Flores LITERALLY FILED A LAWSUIT RATTING ROSS OUT for offering him money to Tank for Tua. Which he got fired for turning down. They tried. They were bad. Really bad. They were outscoured in their first four games before the bye week 163-26.

But you're saying these coaches tanked away their jobs to the unemployment line.... for the good of the franchise? That fired them? That they will be (maybe) be playing AGAINST in their job?

Yeah, leave some tin foil for the food.

[Grahamburn]

Lol. The Texans did the complete opposite of tanking and Lovie got fired for it.

[CannonFire]

LOL, I don't know if it's funny or sad that some of you think it's the coaches and players lose on purpose, to tank, and not the GM who puts the team together.

[Grahamburn]

LOL, I don't know if it's funny or sad that some of you think it's the coaches and players lose on purpose, to tank, and not the GM who puts the team together.

Who said it was the coaches/players? I don’t think that’s ever the case.

I do imagine there are conversations, or suggestions, initiated by ownership directed at coaches though.

And I definitely think some players are ruled out of games that they could probably play in if the team was in contention.

[Doctor]

Sure, owners have infinite job security regardless of how moronic. And like gen pop there are a percentage dumb enough to believe in the kool-aid of tanking, like Ross. And don't care much for the staff that lose their jobs afterwards.

The issue is that it never gets downstream enough to reach the field because asking someone to commit seppuku for you doesn't go well.

[Buc2]

Sure, owners have infinite job security regardless of how moronic. And like gen pop there are a percentage dumb enough to believe in the kool-aid of tanking, like Ross. And don't care much for the staff that lose their jobs afterwards.

The issue is that it never gets downstream enough to reach the field because asking someone to commit seppuku for you doesn't go well.

Tanking isn’t about players actively trying to lose a game. It’s about player management and game day coaching done in a way that it sabotages the players’ ability to perform to their maximum potential. Be it not clearing injured key players when they’d normally be cleared (holding them out of games) or managing the game in a way that increases the odds of losing. There’s no need to ask the players to tank.

Edit: Lest the above makes anyone think that I think teams tank games, I do not. They may not put their team in the best position to win, though. But I don’t believe they aren out there telling their players to purposely suck.

But, as mentioned, why would coaches purposely risk their job to tank?

[GreatTimes]

Just read an article about the Bucs creating turnovers and the amount of turnovers committed by the Bucs. The Bucs are 4th in the NFL in forcing turnovers by their opponents. The Bucs 8 turnovers are the 2nd fewest in the NFL. With that turnover differential, you would think that the Bucs would have a winning record.

[Buc2]

Just read an article about the Bucs creating turnovers and the amount of turnovers committed by the Bucs. The Bucs are 4th in the NFL in forcing turnovers by their opponents. The Bucs 8 turnovers are the 2nd fewest in the NFL. With that turnover differential, you would think that the Bucs would have a winning record.

It may not be translating to wins now, but if they're going to flip the script on wins vs losses, they will need to keep that up.

[Doctor]

We've kept it within a score most games. The line between WL is thin.

[Onthebrink]

Just read an article about the Bucs creating turnovers and the amount of turnovers committed by the Bucs. The Bucs are 4th in the NFL in forcing turnovers by their opponents. The Bucs 8 turnovers are the 2nd fewest in the NFL. With that turnover differential, you would think that the Bucs would have a winning record.

They have 8 picks and 8 fumble recoveries. 3 of those ended the half or the game. One was a pick 6. They only have 2 TDs on offense and 3 FGs with the others. Both TDs were on very short fields. From the 6 yard line and the 23 yard line. 2 FGs on take aways when the offense didn't gain a first down. The offense has not been good after a take away. If we do not count the 3 that ended halves or the game and the pick 6 then we have 12 take aways. They have 23 points off of them minus 2 on a safety. 21 points overall. 30 points off of 16 turnovers in all if we strip any context.

[Onthebrink]

Also the Bucs have given up only 2 FGs on D after the offense has given the ball away.

[CannonFire]

LOL, I don't know if it's funny or sad that some of you think it's the coaches and players lose on purpose, to tank, and not the GM who puts the team together.

Who said it was the coaches/players? I don’t think that’s ever the case.

I do imagine there are conversations, or suggestions, initiated by ownership directed at coaches though.

And I definitely think some players are ruled out of games that they could probably play in if the team was in contention.

So who were you talking about when you said: "The Texans did the complete opposite of tanking and Lovie got fired for it."

You're saying that ownership didn't try to tank?

Also, you didn't say it, but someone else said Miami didn't tank. G.t.f.o.h. with that. Dolphins ownership absolutely did try to tank... Flores just had a good defensive plan and execution to win more than what the ownership wanted. He even said that management wanted to pay him extra to lose.

[CannonFire]

One thing I will say about this team is that even though think that Bowles isn't that good of a coach and I don't think that Mayfield is an NFL starter, they both have a good shot at convincing people they're better than what they are. In their last 7 games, I don't think they play any team that I think talent-wise, is better than us. Every one of those games are definitely winnable. The Jags are the only team with a winning record, and I don't think they're all that good.

[BuccaNOLEer]

Who said it was the coaches/players? I don’t think that’s ever the case.

I do imagine there are conversations, or suggestions, initiated by ownership directed at coaches though.

And I definitely think some players are ruled out of games that they could probably play in if the team was in contention.

So who were you talking about when you said: "The Texans did the complete opposite of tanking and Lovie got fired for it."

You're saying that ownership didn't try to tank?

Also, you didn't say it, but someone else said Miami didn't tank. G.t.f.o.h. with that. Dolphins ownership absolutely did try to tank... Flores just had a good defensive plan and execution to win more than what the ownership wanted. He even said that management wanted to pay him extra to lose.

This is why the NFL needs to go to some sort of lottery system for the top five picks of the draft. Sorta like the NBA does.

[These Are The Days]

So who were you talking about when you said: "The Texans did the complete opposite of tanking and Lovie got fired for it."

You're saying that ownership didn't try to tank?

Also, you didn't say it, but someone else said Miami didn't tank. G.t.f.o.h. with that. Dolphins ownership absolutely did try to tank... Flores just had a good defensive plan and execution to win more than what the ownership wanted. He even said that management wanted to pay him extra to lose.

This is why the NFL needs to go to some sort of lottery system for the top five picks of the draft. Sorta like the NBA does.

I strongly disagree. Imagine being the Browns going 1-15 then 0-16 and being perhaps one of the worst teams of all time. And then picking 3rd both years because of ping pong balls. Success should not fall into the hands of dumb luck.

The lottery has singlehandedly prevented the full rebuild of several NBA and NHL teams for years

[Grahamburn]

Who said it was the coaches/players? I don’t think that’s ever the case.

I do imagine there are conversations, or suggestions, initiated by ownership directed at coaches though.

And I definitely think some players are ruled out of games that they could probably play in if the team was in contention.

So who were you talking about when you said: "The Texans did the complete opposite of tanking and Lovie got fired for it."

You're saying that ownership didn't try to tank?

Also, you didn't say it, but someone else said Miami didn't tank. G.t.f.o.h. with that. Dolphins ownership absolutely did try to tank... Flores just had a good defensive plan and execution to win more than what the ownership wanted. He even said that management wanted to pay him extra to lose.

I’m saying owners certainly have that mentality and I’m sure they try to influence GMs or coaches.

[Doctor]

This is why the NFL needs to go to some sort of lottery system for the top five picks of the draft. Sorta like the NBA does.

I strongly disagree. Imagine being the Browns going 1-15 then 0-16 and being perhaps one of the worst teams of all time. And then picking 3rd both years because of ping pong balls. Success should not fall into the hands of dumb luck.

The lottery has singlehandedly prevented the full rebuild of several NBA and NHL teams for years

You're fooling yourself if you don't think dumb luck is always in play.

[These Are The Days]

I strongly disagree. Imagine being the Browns going 1-15 then 0-16 and being perhaps one of the worst teams of all time. And then picking 3rd both years because of ping pong balls. Success should not fall into the hands of dumb luck.

The lottery has singlehandedly prevented the full rebuild of several NBA and NHL teams for years

You're fooling yourself if you don't think dumb luck is always in play.

Getting Sapp was dumb luck because he had no business falling that far. Randy Moss is a good example too. Not getting an Andrew Luck when you're clearly the worst team in the league and you need a QB is BS. You will set back a team years because of that crap. The whole tanking thing is nonsense.

The Magic finally won a #1 pick since 2004 and they're finally not dog shit after years of being dog shit because the ping pong balls weren't nice.

[BuccaNOLEer]

You're fooling yourself if you don't think dumb luck is always in play.

Getting Sapp was dumb luck because he had no business falling that far. Randy Moss is a good example too. Not getting an Andrew Luck when you're clearly the worst team in the league and you need a QB is BS. The whole tanking thing is nonsense

Sapp falling was most definitely not dumb luck. Same deal for Randy Moss. Character/drug concerns can kill your draft stock. Laremy Tunsil was a top three pick and fell all the way to thirteen thanks to a video of him surfacing of him smoking marijuana through a "bong mask". It had been revealed that Sapp had multiple positive drug tests that were concealed by the Miami Hurricanes coaching staff so he could remain eligible.

[These Are The Days]

Getting Sapp was dumb luck because he had no business falling that far. Randy Moss is a good example too. Not getting an Andrew Luck when you're clearly the worst team in the league and you need a QB is BS. The whole tanking thing is nonsense

Character/drug concerns can kill your draft stock. Laremy Tunsil was a top three pick and fell all the way to thirteen thanks to a video of him surfacing of him smoking marijuana through a "bong mask". It had been revealed that Sapp had multiple positive drug tests that were concealed by the Miami Hurricanes coaching staff so he could remain eligible.

That's not necessarily what I mean. I picked players who fell due to drugs on purpose. Choosing them is luck you make for yourself. Tyreek Hill today is another good example. But imagine the Bucs picking 4th in 1976 and someone else gets Selmon and then 4th again the next year after 0-14. Lotteries set teams back for years unnecessarily

[13F11B]

Character/drug concerns can kill your draft stock. Laremy Tunsil was a top three pick and fell all the way to thirteen thanks to a video of him surfacing of him smoking marijuana through a "bong mask". It had been revealed that Sapp had multiple positive drug tests that were concealed by the Miami Hurricanes coaching staff so he could remain eligible.

That's not necessarily what I mean. I picked players who fell due to drugs on purpose. Choosing them is luck you make for yourself. Tyreek Hill today is another good example. But imagine the Bucs picking 4th in 1976 and someone else gets Selmon and then 4th again the next year after 0-14. Lotteries set teams back for years unnecessarily

What about a lottery for the 1st 4 picks combined with making the 1st 4 picks work like a snake draft?

[kaimaru]

Character/drug concerns can kill your draft stock. Laremy Tunsil was a top three pick and fell all the way to thirteen thanks to a video of him surfacing of him smoking marijuana through a "bong mask". It had been revealed that Sapp had multiple positive drug tests that were concealed by the Miami Hurricanes coaching staff so he could remain eligible.

That's not necessarily what I mean. I picked players who fell due to drugs on purpose. Choosing them is luck you make for yourself. Tyreek Hill today is another good example. But imagine the Bucs picking 4th in 1976 and someone else gets Selmon and then 4th again the next year after 0-14. Lotteries set teams back for years unnecessarily

Using the NBA is a terrible example. They play 10 players a game. Basketball skills and size translate well from college to pro. Scouting is much more likely to "hit" than in the NFL. Hockey is also another. You only have 1 goalie and 5 to 8 skill players that have to be above average to excellent to succeed. They also are in a lower league for sometimes over a year. The skillsets like NBA skillsets are easier to predict than in the NFL. Some positions are easier to translate than others, but to say you need X and drafting top 3 doesn't mean they won't end up being a JAG or average player

[Doctor]

100%

The games are uncomparable. Individual players are far heavier weighed.

[Babeinbucland]

Getting Sapp was dumb luck because he had no business falling that far. Randy Moss is a good example too. Not getting an Andrew Luck when you're clearly the worst team in the league and you need a QB is BS. The whole tanking thing is nonsense

Sapp falling was most definitely not dumb luck. Same deal for Randy Moss. Character/drug concerns can kill your draft stock. Laremy Tunsil was a top three pick and fell all the way to thirteen thanks to a video of him surfacing of him smoking marijuana through a "bong mask". It had been revealed that Sapp had multiple positive drug tests that were concealed by the Miami Hurricanes coaching staff so he could remain eligible.

Tom Brady draft pick was the dumbest luck of all

[BuccaNOLEer]

Sapp falling was most definitely not dumb luck. Same deal for Randy Moss. Character/drug concerns can kill your draft stock. Laremy Tunsil was a top three pick and fell all the way to thirteen thanks to a video of him surfacing of him smoking marijuana through a "bong mask". It had been revealed that Sapp had multiple positive drug tests that were concealed by the Miami Hurricanes coaching staff so he could remain eligible.

Tom Brady draft pick was the dumbest luck of all

The funny thing is, when I was seeing him come out of college in 1999, I was telling my buddy who was a Michigan fan that he had all the tools to play in the NFL but very little starting experience and that some team would probably take a late round flier on him and he could surprise some people. Looking back, that's gotta be the understatement of the century.

[Bootz]

Sapp falling was most definitely not dumb luck. Same deal for Randy Moss. Character/drug concerns can kill your draft stock. Laremy Tunsil was a top three pick and fell all the way to thirteen thanks to a video of him surfacing of him smoking marijuana through a "bong mask". It had been revealed that Sapp had multiple positive drug tests that were concealed by the Miami Hurricanes coaching staff so he could remain eligible.

Tom Brady draft pick was the dumbest luck of all

And yet multiple times you've cited him as a reason to give Trask a chance. Because "dumb luck" should be something to aim for...But I'm glad you've finally come around.

[mdb1958]

Best day 2 coach?

[Babeinbucland]

Tom Brady draft pick was the dumbest luck of all

And yet multiple times you've cited him as a reason to give Trask a chance. Because "dumb luck" should be something to aim for...But I'm glad you've finally come around.

Coming out of college (This is the distinction that you seem to not be able to grasp) Trask was much less of a risk than Brady. And we STILL have no idea if Trask is any good or great even. Same with Brady - they only knew his abilities when they gave him a chance. And even then it wasn’t immediate.

[Doctor]

Babe isn't wrong. That's true for every QB. "If he could be somebody he'd be somebody by now" is the lamest of all cop outs.

[Grahamburn]

Aaron Rodgers sat behind Favre for 3 years.

[Bootz]

So Trask = Rodgers?